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roytam1

My build of New Moon (temp. name) a.k.a. Pale Moon fork targetting XP

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1 hour ago, LoneCrusader said:

I assume once again that users are intended to believe that "poor modification" is an acceptable definition of "restoring the pre-existing functionality that you intentionally chose to break?"

And it's not just XP/Vista compatibility either. We went through the same thing when MCP yanked out Basilisk's WE APIs, for "security" they said (ironically that's what Mozilla said about the "legacy" APIs too), and more recently their decision to yank out container tabs support since there's one buggy add-on that tries to duplicate that function.

This isn't about "misrepresentation;" that's a red herring. This is about ideology.

I disagree with Mozilla's decision to yank out the "legacy" (XUL/XPCOM/etc.) APIs too; to me, that's exactly the same thing: intentionally making your product less functional just to make it harder on folks running software you don't approve of.

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Posted (edited)

Okay, couple of things..

First and foremost, I am not Moonchild. I am not here to comment on what may or may not be happening in regards to the builds that use Pale Moon or Basilisk code. Binary Outcast != Moonchild Productions.

I represent my self and Binary Outcast. Now, I am here to ask you to keep your dog off my lawn. This is not unreasonable though I sometimes phrase it unreasonably. The fact that you think I need a disclaimer is ridiculous seeing as Mozilla doesn't need a disclaimer about us. They simply tell everyone that they aren't the makers of it and that they should p*** off. They want our dogs to stay off their lawn too. However, I did as suggested and he did as I suggested. Of course that wasn't the end of it it. It had to continue right? So let's continue.

Windows XP and Vista support was dropped from UXP broadly because the code paths and support of them for an 18 year old operating system is NOT reasonable. The Classical Mozilla Codebase is massive with many parts and a good portion is 3rd party libs glued together in a very fragile way. We know how this works through 10 years of experimentation and research. Restoring NT 5x compatibility isn't as simple as reverting a few commits unless you never plan to change any of the rest of the code.

You bring up Basilisk's WebExtensions.. Well the fact is, WebExtension support was NEVER going to advance and it was a huge mistake to leave it in Basilisk in the first place. Once the ESR the WebExtension support was left at all the WebExtensions stopped supporting it and I knew damn well this was going to be the outcome. As for the security argument? Yes, WebExtensions as Mozilla has implemented them are terribly insecure requiring dozens of related security patches every month. You haven't seen them and we have so you cannot attest to it and if you THINK you know anything about it you are just lying your a** off.

Basilisk Tab Containers which was never enabled by default was an unfinished and immature incarnation of the Firefox feature considered experimental at the fork off level. It was never meant to be a feature which is why it wasn't enabled by default or touted as a feature unique to Basilisk and thus was slated for removal the moment we found it as a thing that existed. You act like you understand our collective development decisions but you don't have any clue because you aren't us nor are you involved in it.

 

Back to the area where I have supreme authority, Binary Outcast Projects. Now, what I want above all the bul***** is just to do my projects and not have you guys or your dogs crapping on my lawn. However, if this continues I may have to just shut down my projects and forget doing them at all. I only have 7 months of mandatory support for the email client as per the original terms for funding the Interlink Mail & News project at that time I can shut it down and obliterate it from existence if I so choose. If I do that there will be no more updates for which these builds can utilize. Since, roytam1 or the other guy who I can't be bothered to look up his name don't do true development.. That means the end of the builds here except for they will still do builds but will never advance.

I don't want to do that but I will because my lawn is my f****** lawn. Stay off it and you won't have to worry about me coming here and dumping the refuse I pick up back on yours.

 

As for my wish to have constructive dialog that could still be done but the fact is there is no good medium to do that and here isn't exactly sufficient. It is too bad that these XP projects have no true infra for that to happen. Merely leeching off other people's services.

Edited by Matt A. Tobin

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1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

Okay, couple of things..

First and foremost, I am not Moonchild. I am not here to comment on what may or may not be happening in regards to the builds that use Pale Moon or Basilisk code. Binary Outcast != Moonchild Productions.

I represent my self and Binary Outcast. Now, I am here to ask you to keep your dog off my lawn. This is not unreasonable though I sometimes phrase it unreasonably. The fact that you think I need a disclaimer is ridiculous seeing as Mozilla doesn't need a disclaimer about us. They simply tell everyone that they aren't the makers of it and that they should p*** off. They want our dogs to stay off their lawn too. However, I did as suggested and he did as I suggested. Of course that wasn't the end of it it. It had to continue right? So let's continue.

I think we all understand that you are not Moonchild nor do you speak for MCP in this case. However you get grouped together with MCP here because you have been variously associated with them and apparently share the same condescending attitude toward XP (and Vista) users. This attitude is what turns everyone here off; I mean really, what do "you guys" care what operating system other people choose to use? Don't want to "support" it in your projects? Fine. Just don't break it on purpose, and don't act as if someone is committing a sin by using it on a "unapproved" platform. I fail to understand what bothers you so much about people asking about the XP builds based on this latest statement. Why not just tell them to "p*** off" as you put it and go on about your day?

Now, back to the issue. If you wish to make a "reasonable" request, then do so in a "reasonable" and diplomatic manner. Coming in here and making demands and threats will get you nowhere. I'm willing to accept that your desire to have these "forked projects" disassociated from "Binary Outcast" is a "reasonable" request. However you need to lose the attitude first and foremost, and then make a clear policy on whether or not and how you wish to be credited or mentioned at all in any subsequent "forked" project. You have given conflicting statements on this depending on your attitude whenever you were posting.

Do you want roytam to just change the names, icons and such?
Do you want any stated credit such as "this project is forked from ___ " "created by ____"?
Do you want to be "erased" entirely from the resulting fork?
If roytam does these things you "request," then does that mean you will lose the condescending attitude and derogatory language in reference to these builds here and elsewhere?

1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

Windows XP and Vista support was dropped from UXP broadly because the code paths and support of them for an 18 year old operating system is NOT reasonable. ...

In your opinion; which most everyone here does not share. This is a nonstarter here. It doesn't matter how much "insight" you believe you have into this code; it works on these older platforms and since we have no other options it's a very good option, regardless of your opinion.

1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

Back to the area where I have supreme authority, Binary Outcast Projects. Now, what I want above all the bul***** is just to do my projects and not have you guys or your dogs crapping on my lawn. However, if this continues I may have to just shut down my projects and forget doing them at all. I only have 7 months of mandatory support for the email client as per the original terms for funding the Interlink Mail & News project at that time I can shut it down and obliterate it from existence if I so choose. If I do that there will be no more updates for which these builds can utilize. Since, roytam1 or the other guy who I can't be bothered to look up his name don't do true development.. That means the end of the builds here except for they will still do builds but will never advance.

I don't want to do that but I will because my lawn is my f****** lawn. Stay off it and you won't have to worry about me coming here and dumping the refuse I pick up back on yours.

Addressed most of this above I believe. However, you still seem to think that roytam can somehow exert mind control over those who choose to use his builds and keep them all from "wandering" into the wrong places for support. I'll wager that a good number of these people who are supposedly causing you problems are trolling, especially given your attitude about the builds and since you seem to be very easily triggered by anyone who mentions XP. Since you don't distribute these builds from your site, and most likely one must visit here in the first place in order to get the links for the builds, I find it strange that any serious user doing as such would not "stop here" first for help. They seem to be purposely seeking you out rather than sincerely needing help; and if this is the case, no one here can do anything about that.

1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

As for my wish to have constructive dialog that could still be done but the fact is there is no good medium to do that and here isn't exactly sufficient. It is too bad that these XP projects have no true infra for that to happen. Merely leeching off other people's services.

What's not "sufficient" here? This forum has been around for a long time and has hosted the support for many projects. I'd rather see a developer dedicated to his or her project rather than dedicated to extraneous "infrastructure." Nothing wrong with having "infrastructure;" mind you, but in the end it is secondary to the project itself. roytam has enough to keep him busy with a $dayjob and building his various browsers, and since he has no help in doing so it's not reasonable to expect him to spend time on a website or otherwise.

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Posted (edited)

These people aren't trolls they are misguided people because they were told at one point that these builds ARE "Pale Moon" but for Windows XP or told "Interlink" but for Windows XP. And it spread. Now it may not have been the original intention of non-english speakers to present it as such and yet it still goes on. This has continued to happen especially at Pale Moon but is also continuing for Interlink and even people for Borealis which btw has STILL not been officially released and yet they are running it on Windows XP.

This confusion exists and it is real and must be acknowledged. My problem has always been that it is bad enough that poor a** linux builders create inferior Pale Moon branded builds which we have to go after and for which we get blamed on for their poor performance and misconfigured builds but we also have to deal with these Windows XP people who can't tell the difference because like it or not it WAS presented as such when you guys first started off. There is proof of that.

What do we want? Exactly what we said.. Complete disassociation. I still think that your projects could fill a need of people even if that need is based on ignorance and misconception of reality but needs never the less but you HAVE to do more than just made some code changes and not use official branding.. The mistakes were already made and you must actively correct it.

I also believe people using development builds as the ONLY source beyond "MyPal" is a terrible idea especially for something like Navigator which is still unfinished.

My biggest problem has been the adhoc nature of this endeavor.. Why not make something more than a blogger blog and a thread on msfn.. Why not create unique product branding and why not learn that some of your collective decisions aren't the best in general let alone to achieve your goal. You want me to see you as more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.. Than BE more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.

I still don't see any improvement on that front and it has been at least two years since this whole mess has started and I have offered to help in that regard and was shot down every time. Still not willing to do the number one thing we collectively asked for for two years.. Create your own branding. Where is it?

So I feel like I have to force the issue with EVERY issue just to get SOMETHING done and that in and of its self p***es me the hell off. If I remove unofficial branding will you then create new branding? Or will you just restore the unofficial branding.. OR WORSE YET will you go back to violating my rights and use whatever branding is left? See, I don't know and in two of those cases which are far more likely based on the past two years the core issue remains.. Which p***es me off that you don't acknowledge: Confusion of users about what exactly they are running..

My second biggest problem will be that little to nothing is done to crush that perception which branding should solve. I don't want to hear that someone is running "Interlink on Windows XP" or "Borealis on Windows XP" because that isn't what they are running.. Not by a long shot. This is a falsehood that is being allowed to continue and as long as it is being allowed to continue I will never hold any of you in anything but abject contempt. And that is where I am on the whole thing. I can't ignore you and it seems I also can't help you. So all I can do is dislike you and try to educate anyone I come across.

Nothing will change until SOMETHING changes. The first true step aside from a single sentence on a web page is BRANDING and BRANDING is the start to your future as something other than what I despise.

As an aside, unique branding won't be very affected if at all by any code changes we do and you can override our default set preferences without there being merge conflicts or worrying about our pref changes if you specify them in branding.. That alone would harden your product choices against our normal development to a degree. That alone should encourage you to make it so.

My next course of action will be determined by your choices.. So what is it to be? You gonna take that first step to being unique and a force unto yourselves or do I keep having to fight you at every turn coming up with more and more ridiculous ways to get something to change out here?

That is about as diplomatic as I get in these cases.

Decide.

Edited by Matt A. Tobin

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OK. Enough! Everybody try and cool your heads. Thread's locked for 24h (at least...). Can't you all behave? :wacko:

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Also, please keep in mind that profanity here is not tolerated. Once Dencorso decides to reopen this thread for debate, let's keep it clean and respectful towards each other. We can have discussions on here without swearing or bashing each other to bits.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe it would be an IDEA to set up a PRIVATE MESSAGE THREAD here on MSFN
for Mr. TOBIN and Mr. RT ??? ... And they could 'Duke It Out' PRIVATELY there ???
NO real reason to get the ("pinhead" ?) RABBLE MSFN Users (like me ?) too excited. :lol:

Well You Can Call Me RAY ... Or You Can Call Me JAY ...
Or You Can Call Me PINHEAD (?) ... :roll1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7n9YX1Xfw4

Edited by TechnoRelic

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On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

These people aren't trolls they are misguided people because they were told at one point that these builds ARE "Pale Moon" but for Windows XP or told "Interlink" but for Windows XP. And it spread. Now it may not have been the original intention of non-english speakers to present it as such and yet it still goes on. This has continued to happen especially at Pale Moon but is also continuing for Interlink and even people for Borealis which btw has STILL not been officially released and yet they are running it on Windows XP.

This confusion exists and it is real and must be acknowledged. My problem has always been that it is bad enough that poor a** linux builders create inferior Pale Moon branded builds which we have to go after and for which we get blamed on for their poor performance and misconfigured builds but we also have to deal with these Windows XP people who can't tell the difference because like it or not it WAS presented as such when you guys first started off. There is proof of that.

I have yet to see any evidence of these supposed "misguided people." We have only your word on the subject, which, given your general behavior and attitude, is not necessarily reputable.

If one takes the source code for a given program (X) and re-compiles it targeting another platform (Y), how is it NOT "X for Y"? These programs are open source. If someone chooses to recompile them targeting a different platform, they have every right to do so, whether you like it or not. Good luck switching to "closed source," drop back by in a few years when you reach a closed-source state equivalent to the current open-source one you "leeched" from Mozilla.

I've seen how you deal with these "poor ___ Linux builders" as you refer to them. You drop in, make demands and threats, create a general atmosphere of negativity that poisons the waters and turns everyone off, all the while hoping that no one stands up to your bullying. Most people eventually give in and give up, not willing to deal with your constant attacks. I'm afraid that modus operandi will not work here.

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

What do we want? Exactly what we said.. Complete disassociation. I still think that your projects could fill a need of people even if that need is based on ignorance and misconception of reality but needs never the less but you HAVE to do more than just made some code changes and not use official branding.. The mistakes were already made and you must actively correct it.

I know for a fact that roytam's New Moon 27 builds are in fact named "New Moon" and not "Pale Moon" and do include a disclaimer on the About dialog that states the build is unofficial and specifically says not to request help on the official Pale Moon forum or otherwise. This thread is also mentioned. So what more do you expect? If the supposed "misguided people" you refer to are too ignorant to read and abide by these disclaimers then nothing else is going to stop them either. In the end all of these programs, including yours and those of Moonchild Productions, descend from Firefox or other Mozilla sources. The "chain of descent" is there, and it is not going away because someone changes a name or writes a disclaimer. Even if the name were changed, what happens when someone simply asks "what is this based on?" When the answer is given no one can control how others may use that piece of information to seek out the project's "upstreams."

Even after all this ranting you still have not made any set of concrete "minimal acceptable changes" from your point of view. You keep changing them based on your level of annoyance each time you post. First it's change a name. Then it's full branding. Then "unofficial branding" is OK. Then it isn't. You noted at one point that mentions of the original names would be necessary for "profile compatibility reasons." Now, "ALL THE ORIGINAL NAMES MUST GO!" This is beyond ridiculous.

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

My biggest problem has been the adhoc nature of this endeavor.. Why not make something more than a blogger blog and a thread on msfn.. Why not create unique product branding and why not learn that some of your collective decisions aren't the best in general let alone to achieve your goal. You want me to see you as more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.. Than BE more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.

I still don't see any improvement on that front and it has been at least two years since this whole mess has started and I have offered to help in that regard and was shot down every time. Still not willing to do the number one thing we collectively asked for for two years.. Create your own branding. Where is it?

So I feel like I have to force the issue with EVERY issue just to get SOMETHING done and that in and of its self p***es me the hell off. If I remove unofficial branding will you then create new branding? Or will you just restore the unofficial branding.. OR WORSE YET will you go back to violating my rights and use whatever branding is left? See, I don't know and in two of those cases which are far more likely based on the past two years the core issue remains.. Which p***es me off that you don't acknowledge: Confusion of users about what exactly they are running..

Maybe roytam isn't a good graphics artist? I myself certainly wouldn't want to have to undertake the task of creating new "branding" that is worthy of the underlying code here.

I'm no programmer, but I would take bets that changing the names and such would also create more headaches for roytam and his users in the fact that this could cause Addons and other associated applications to not recognize roy's builds, thereby forcing him or his users to manually modify every single Addon or associated application in order to get it working as it should. If my assumption of this is correct, what reasonable person with a life and better things to do who would choose this path?

I'm sorry, but no truly serious user of these builds has any confusion whatsoever about what they are using. If the official installer(s) won't run on your non-supported platform and you had to get a build from here, that's self explanatory. And, if you're running on a supported platform where the official installer(s) work, that's self explanatory as well, and why would you come here in the first place?

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

My second biggest problem will be that little to nothing is done to crush that perception which branding should solve. I don't want to hear that someone is running "Interlink on Windows XP" or "Borealis on Windows XP" because that isn't what they are running.. Not by a long shot. This is a falsehood that is being allowed to continue and as long as it is being allowed to continue I will never hold any of you in anything but abject contempt. And that is where I am on the whole thing. I can't ignore you and it seems I also can't help you. So all I can do is dislike you and try to educate anyone I come across.

Covered this above, but once again - "If one takes the source code for a given program (X) and re-compiles it targeting another platform (Y), how is it NOT "X for Y"?"
You "don't want to hear" these things because you don't like the fact that someone had the gall and took the time to compile your project for a different target platform that you disapprove of. That's the beauty of open source. Also once again - "Good luck switching to "closed source," drop back by in a few years when you reach a closed-source state equivalent to the current open-source one you "leeched" from Mozilla."

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

Nothing will change until SOMETHING changes. The first true step aside from a single sentence on a web page is BRANDING and BRANDING is the start to your future as something other than what I despise.

As an aside, unique branding won't be very affected if at all by any code changes we do and you can override our default set preferences without there being merge conflicts or worrying about our pref changes if you specify them in branding.. That alone would harden your product choices against our normal development to a degree. That alone should encourage you to make it so.

See above about causing issues with Addons and associated applications.

You claim that there is some "advantage" in the changes you are demanding when it seems more likely that this will only create more work for the developer. I see no advantage whatsoever to be gained by these projects from your suggestions, only that you just want things your way.

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

My next course of action will be determined by your choices.. So what is it to be? You gonna take that first step to being unique and a force unto yourselves or do I keep having to fight you at every turn coming up with more and more ridiculous ways to get something to change out here?

That is about as diplomatic as I get in these cases.

Decide.

I don't speak for roytam, but if I were in his shoes I would be all the less inclined to acquiesce to any of your demands simply based on your behavior. You have chosen to act in a condescending and demanding manner laced with threats to keep throwing roadblocks in the way of or create problems in any way possible for roytam's projects.

On the other side, you create more annoyance for yourself by coming here and ranting about supposed "misguided users" who are troubling you, when it would be simpler (and probably better for your health) just to tell them off and go on about your day. You appear to thrive on creating a negative environment and beating dead horses. And, in the end, if you decide to try and make good on your threats then you will create more work for yourself in rewriting closed-source code to replace the open-source code you "borrowed" but don't like others "borrowing."

Based on this and in the interest of civility I will state that I believe this "discussion" is never going anywhere. Please stop wasting everyone's time with your threats, condescension, and negative attitude. These will get you nothing here, except an end to OUR "diplomacy."

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@roytam1
If you ever want different icons for your builds please let me know :) I've been playing around quite a bit with paint.net and commercial-friendly stock photos. It's been a pretty fun experience and I would love to share ;)
https://imgur.com/a/cgvWC59

3D B&W Win95 icon, golden-ish 9x logo, and my personal Ifranview picture ;)

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On 4/29/2019 at 6:25 PM, VistaLover said:

... You don't need an extension in NM27 to download that video to disk; it is being served through HTTPS progressive streaming, so you can use the browser's native Web Console (inside Developer Tools) and filter for ".mp4" links while loading the embedded player:

EX09fAC.jpg

The screengrab is from New Moon 27.9.6 32-bit (the SSE2 compile, running on Vista SP2 x86; you should be able to get the video download link on your SSE compile under WinXP, too! ;)).

everything from me is only SSE-related! and i dont understand your instructions. how and where to get the DL?

 

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That's fine. I'll just continue to educate users when they show up. Leave it to a Romulan to create this atmosphere of mistrust.

Good day.

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3 hours ago, 3dreal said:

everything from me is only SSE-related!

... YES, we know already! :angry: Please stop repeating yourself ad nauseam... :( As I wrote in my post:

On 4/29/2019 at 7:25 PM, VistaLover said:

you should be able to get the video download link on your SSE compile under WinXP, too!

3 hours ago, 3dreal said:

and i dont understand your instructions. how and where to get the DL? 

What is it exactly you don't understand? I think the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words" should have applied here... If you're not at all familiar with the browser's Developer Tools section, then educate yourself; basically, for the purposes of URL sniffin (detecting background URLs for media and other content), you really only need WebConsole (CTRL+SHIFT+K):

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Web_Console

... and, on occasion, Network Monitor (CTRL+SHIFT+Q):

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Network_Monitor

Load  https://winfuture.de/UpdatePack in a New Moon 27 tab; in that same tab, open WebConsole, filter for ".mp4" (without the quotes) and then reload the page, followed by clicking the play button in the embedded web player; the link to the video itself should appear (https://videos.winfuture.de/16838.mp4)

Right clink the link; you can copy the link (and use whatever download manager/extension already installed to fetch it to disk) OR you can opt to open it in a new New Moon 27 tab; if you have set up the browser correctly (LAV filters provided by roytam1 for SSE-only processors), it should start to auto-play; right-click the video and an option is there to save/download it!

(<Personal rant>: I acknowledge most people here offering guidance/help do so on a voluntary basis, out of the goodness of heart, sacrificing valuable personal spare time... I'm no different :P; but what really aggravates me is the lack of willingness on the help-receiving parties to do some of the "homework" themselves, learning things along the way; it appears that most people expect to be spoon-fed like a one year old toddler, this attitude never promotes one's own knowledge :( </Personal rant>)

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4 hours ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

That's fine. I'll just continue to educate users when they show up. Leave it to a Romulan to create this atmosphere of mistrust.

Good day.

:o Discrimination against Romulans? Must be a TNG fan. :P
(TNG being the place where the Romulans become the evil, devious, dishonorable bad guys because someone decided to promote the Klingons to "honorable allies." Role reversal! Character assassination! The horror! :no:)

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