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My Browser Builds (Part 1)


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Also, please keep in mind that profanity here is not tolerated. Once Dencorso decides to reopen this thread for debate, let's keep it clean and respectful towards each other. We can have discussions on here without swearing or bashing each other to bits.

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Maybe it would be an IDEA to set up a PRIVATE MESSAGE THREAD here on MSFN
for Mr. TOBIN and Mr. RT ??? ... And they could 'Duke It Out' PRIVATELY there ???

Well You Can Call Me RAY ... Or You Can Call Me JAY ...
Or You Can Call Me ... (?) ... :roll1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7n9YX1Xfw4

Edited by TechnoRelic
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On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

These people aren't trolls they are misguided people because they were told at one point that these builds ARE "Pale Moon" but for Windows XP or told "Interlink" but for Windows XP. And it spread. Now it may not have been the original intention of non-english speakers to present it as such and yet it still goes on. This has continued to happen especially at Pale Moon but is also continuing for Interlink and even people for Borealis which btw has STILL not been officially released and yet they are running it on Windows XP.

This confusion exists and it is real and must be acknowledged. My problem has always been that it is bad enough that poor a** linux builders create inferior Pale Moon branded builds which we have to go after and for which we get blamed on for their poor performance and misconfigured builds but we also have to deal with these Windows XP people who can't tell the difference because like it or not it WAS presented as such when you guys first started off. There is proof of that.

I have yet to see any evidence of these supposed "misguided people." We have only your word on the subject, which, given your general behavior and attitude, is not necessarily reputable.

If one takes the source code for a given program (X) and re-compiles it targeting another platform (Y), how is it NOT "X for Y"? These programs are open source. If someone chooses to recompile them targeting a different platform, they have every right to do so, whether you like it or not. Good luck switching to "closed source," drop back by in a few years when you reach a closed-source state equivalent to the current open-source one you "leeched" from Mozilla.

I've seen how you deal with these "poor ___ Linux builders" as you refer to them. You drop in, make demands and threats, create a general atmosphere of negativity that poisons the waters and turns everyone off, all the while hoping that no one stands up to your bullying. Most people eventually give in and give up, not willing to deal with your constant attacks. I'm afraid that modus operandi will not work here.

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

What do we want? Exactly what we said.. Complete disassociation. I still think that your projects could fill a need of people even if that need is based on ignorance and misconception of reality but needs never the less but you HAVE to do more than just made some code changes and not use official branding.. The mistakes were already made and you must actively correct it.

I know for a fact that roytam's New Moon 27 builds are in fact named "New Moon" and not "Pale Moon" and do include a disclaimer on the About dialog that states the build is unofficial and specifically says not to request help on the official Pale Moon forum or otherwise. This thread is also mentioned. So what more do you expect? If the supposed "misguided people" you refer to are too ignorant to read and abide by these disclaimers then nothing else is going to stop them either. In the end all of these programs, including yours and those of Moonchild Productions, descend from Firefox or other Mozilla sources. The "chain of descent" is there, and it is not going away because someone changes a name or writes a disclaimer. Even if the name were changed, what happens when someone simply asks "what is this based on?" When the answer is given no one can control how others may use that piece of information to seek out the project's "upstreams."

Even after all this ranting you still have not made any set of concrete "minimal acceptable changes" from your point of view. You keep changing them based on your level of annoyance each time you post. First it's change a name. Then it's full branding. Then "unofficial branding" is OK. Then it isn't. You noted at one point that mentions of the original names would be necessary for "profile compatibility reasons." Now, "ALL THE ORIGINAL NAMES MUST GO!" This is beyond ridiculous.

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

My biggest problem has been the adhoc nature of this endeavor.. Why not make something more than a blogger blog and a thread on msfn.. Why not create unique product branding and why not learn that some of your collective decisions aren't the best in general let alone to achieve your goal. You want me to see you as more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.. Than BE more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.

I still don't see any improvement on that front and it has been at least two years since this whole mess has started and I have offered to help in that regard and was shot down every time. Still not willing to do the number one thing we collectively asked for for two years.. Create your own branding. Where is it?

So I feel like I have to force the issue with EVERY issue just to get SOMETHING done and that in and of its self p***es me the hell off. If I remove unofficial branding will you then create new branding? Or will you just restore the unofficial branding.. OR WORSE YET will you go back to violating my rights and use whatever branding is left? See, I don't know and in two of those cases which are far more likely based on the past two years the core issue remains.. Which p***es me off that you don't acknowledge: Confusion of users about what exactly they are running..

Maybe roytam isn't a good graphics artist? I myself certainly wouldn't want to have to undertake the task of creating new "branding" that is worthy of the underlying code here.

I'm no programmer, but I would take bets that changing the names and such would also create more headaches for roytam and his users in the fact that this could cause Addons and other associated applications to not recognize roy's builds, thereby forcing him or his users to manually modify every single Addon or associated application in order to get it working as it should. If my assumption of this is correct, what reasonable person with a life and better things to do who would choose this path?

I'm sorry, but no truly serious user of these builds has any confusion whatsoever about what they are using. If the official installer(s) won't run on your non-supported platform and you had to get a build from here, that's self explanatory. And, if you're running on a supported platform where the official installer(s) work, that's self explanatory as well, and why would you come here in the first place?

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

My second biggest problem will be that little to nothing is done to crush that perception which branding should solve. I don't want to hear that someone is running "Interlink on Windows XP" or "Borealis on Windows XP" because that isn't what they are running.. Not by a long shot. This is a falsehood that is being allowed to continue and as long as it is being allowed to continue I will never hold any of you in anything but abject contempt. And that is where I am on the whole thing. I can't ignore you and it seems I also can't help you. So all I can do is dislike you and try to educate anyone I come across.

Covered this above, but once again - "If one takes the source code for a given program (X) and re-compiles it targeting another platform (Y), how is it NOT "X for Y"?"
You "don't want to hear" these things because you don't like the fact that someone had the gall and took the time to compile your project for a different target platform that you disapprove of. That's the beauty of open source. Also once again - "Good luck switching to "closed source," drop back by in a few years when you reach a closed-source state equivalent to the current open-source one you "leeched" from Mozilla."

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

Nothing will change until SOMETHING changes. The first true step aside from a single sentence on a web page is BRANDING and BRANDING is the start to your future as something other than what I despise.

As an aside, unique branding won't be very affected if at all by any code changes we do and you can override our default set preferences without there being merge conflicts or worrying about our pref changes if you specify them in branding.. That alone would harden your product choices against our normal development to a degree. That alone should encourage you to make it so.

See above about causing issues with Addons and associated applications.

You claim that there is some "advantage" in the changes you are demanding when it seems more likely that this will only create more work for the developer. I see no advantage whatsoever to be gained by these projects from your suggestions, only that you just want things your way.

On 4/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

My next course of action will be determined by your choices.. So what is it to be? You gonna take that first step to being unique and a force unto yourselves or do I keep having to fight you at every turn coming up with more and more ridiculous ways to get something to change out here?

That is about as diplomatic as I get in these cases.

Decide.

I don't speak for roytam, but if I were in his shoes I would be all the less inclined to acquiesce to any of your demands simply based on your behavior. You have chosen to act in a condescending and demanding manner laced with threats to keep throwing roadblocks in the way of or create problems in any way possible for roytam's projects.

On the other side, you create more annoyance for yourself by coming here and ranting about supposed "misguided users" who are troubling you, when it would be simpler (and probably better for your health) just to tell them off and go on about your day. You appear to thrive on creating a negative environment and beating dead horses. And, in the end, if you decide to try and make good on your threats then you will create more work for yourself in rewriting closed-source code to replace the open-source code you "borrowed" but don't like others "borrowing."

Based on this and in the interest of civility I will state that I believe this "discussion" is never going anywhere. Please stop wasting everyone's time with your threats, condescension, and negative attitude. These will get you nothing here, except an end to OUR "diplomacy."

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@roytam1
If you ever want different icons for your builds please let me know :) I've been playing around quite a bit with paint.net and commercial-friendly stock photos. It's been a pretty fun experience and I would love to share ;)
https://imgur.com/a/cgvWC59

3D B&W Win95 icon, golden-ish 9x logo, and my personal Ifranview picture ;)

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On 4/29/2019 at 6:25 PM, VistaLover said:

... You don't need an extension in NM27 to download that video to disk; it is being served through HTTPS progressive streaming, so you can use the browser's native Web Console (inside Developer Tools) and filter for ".mp4" links while loading the embedded player:

EX09fAC.jpg

The screengrab is from New Moon 27.9.6 32-bit (the SSE2 compile, running on Vista SP2 x86; you should be able to get the video download link on your SSE compile under WinXP, too! ;)).

everything from me is only SSE-related! and i dont understand your instructions. how and where to get the DL?

 

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3 hours ago, 3dreal said:

everything from me is only SSE-related!

... YES, we know already! :angry: Please stop repeating yourself ad nauseam... :( As I wrote in my post:

On 4/29/2019 at 7:25 PM, VistaLover said:

you should be able to get the video download link on your SSE compile under WinXP, too!

3 hours ago, 3dreal said:

and i dont understand your instructions. how and where to get the DL? 

What is it exactly you don't understand? I think the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words" should have applied here... If you're not at all familiar with the browser's Developer Tools section, then educate yourself; basically, for the purposes of URL sniffin (detecting background URLs for media and other content), you really only need WebConsole (CTRL+SHIFT+K):

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Web_Console

... and, on occasion, Network Monitor (CTRL+SHIFT+Q):

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Network_Monitor

Load  https://winfuture.de/UpdatePack in a New Moon 27 tab; in that same tab, open WebConsole, filter for ".mp4" (without the quotes) and then reload the page, followed by clicking the play button in the embedded web player; the link to the video itself should appear (https://videos.winfuture.de/16838.mp4)

Right clink the link; you can copy the link (and use whatever download manager/extension already installed to fetch it to disk) OR you can opt to open it in a new New Moon 27 tab; if you have set up the browser correctly (LAV filters provided by roytam1 for SSE-only processors), it should start to auto-play; right-click the video and an option is there to save/download it!

(<Personal rant>: I acknowledge most people here offering guidance/help do so on a voluntary basis, out of the goodness of heart, sacrificing valuable personal spare time... I'm no different :P; but what really aggravates me is the lack of willingness on the help-receiving parties to do some of the "homework" themselves, learning things along the way; it appears that most people expect to be spoon-fed like a one year old toddler, this attitude never promotes one's own knowledge :( </Personal rant>)

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4 hours ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

That's fine. I'll just continue to educate users when they show up. Leave it to a Romulan to create this atmosphere of mistrust.

Good day.

:o Discrimination against Romulans? Must be a TNG fan. :P
(TNG being the place where the Romulans become the evil, devious, dishonorable bad guys because someone decided to promote the Klingons to "honorable allies." Role reversal! Character assassination! The horror! :no:)

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On 4/29/2019 at 1:25 PM, VistaLover said:

Only download-solution for now: Maxthon 3. it has built-in downloader which is stuck just above the videowindow.

Cheers VistaLover. I would not recommend using Maxthon in XP at all. First, it doesn't seem to allow running most DRM sites (netflix, etc). Second, it is not stable/usable on XP in portable mode.  Third, and most importantly: DO NOT INSTALL IT! It messes with the firewall directly, and somehow manages to bypass programs controlling access to security settings in a non-transparent way.

I have not tested it fully, but the add on "Flash and Videos 1.0.9.4" works fine on roytam1's serpent fork.

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On 4/30/2019 at 2:44 AM, Matt A. Tobin said:

The fact that you think I need a disclaimer is ridiculous seeing as Mozilla doesn't need a disclaimer about us. They simply tell everyone that they aren't the makers of it and that they should p*** off

Please do the same, in your forum, and stop useless rants and FUD in this one. 

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8 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

:o Discrimination against Romulans? Must be a TNG fan. :P
(TNG being the place where the Romulans become the evil, devious, dishonorable bad guys because someone decided to promote the Klingons to "honorable allies." Role reversal! Character assassination! The horror! :no:)

To be fair, in the last two seasons of DS9*, the Romulans finally do make peace with everyone else and unite to fight the Dominion; Everyone gets along pretty well, though the new relationship is rather tense at first due to a strong sense of mutual distrust.

(*I'm a pretty big fan of the whole franchise, except the reboot movies (too much modern bling and shallow, cliche-ridden characters for my liking)).

Anyway, back to the topic at hand (such as it is):

Why does Matt Tobin feel the need to troll everyone (particularly roytam1) so badly? It's just plain mean-spirited and unfair.

If he could just stick to one opinion and let everyone do their thing, it would be OK. I *guess* I can kinda sorta see his point, but I really think he should lighten up and just let it go. All he's doing right now is building animosity and resentment, and there's already *way* too much of that going around these days....

I realize this would be absolutely nontrivial, but what about forking the main Firefox source from the same point as Pale Moon (which I think was somewhere around 27.x.x), or perhaps something newer for better feature support, and backport the necessary security patches and stuff? Kinda like a clean room re-implementation of Pale Moon, if you will.

It would certainly take a long time to accomplish, but it would get Matt off your backs by rendering the branding issue completely moot, wouldn't it?

It's just a thought....

c

Edited by cc333
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2 hours ago, cc333 said:

To be fair, in the last two seasons of DS9*, the Romulans finally do make peace with everyone else and unite to fight the Dominion; Everyone gets along pretty well, though the new relationship is rather tense at first due to a strong sense of mutual distrust.

(*I'm a pretty big fan of the whole franchise, except the reboot movies (too much modern bling and shallow, cliche-ridden characters for my liking)).

IIRC that alliance was born out of an act of subterfuge committed by the Federation. And they say we're the dishonorable ones... :whistle:

Just venting one of my pet peeves about the various "24th-century" incarnations of Trek. The Klingons went from being a ruthless, opportunistic enemy in TOS (where they were party to several "dishonorable" acts including planting spies in the Federation) to being the "honorable warrior culture" ally. If anything, the Romulans in TOS, despite being enemies, were portrayed as being much more "honorable" and "duty oriented" and AFAICR never resorted to espionage or sabotage. In TNG and later, their personality mirrors that of the TOS Klingons.

Anyway, moving on, I'm a fan of most of it myself, although TOS and ENT are far superior to the others IMO. Agreed the "reboot" movies are garbage. :angel

3 hours ago, cc333 said:

Why does Matt Tobin feel the need to troll everyone (particularly roytam1) so badly? It's just plain mean-spirited and unfair.

If he could just stick to one opinion and let everyone do their thing, it would be OK. I *guess* I can kinda sorta see his point, but I really think he should lighten up and just let it go. All he's doing right now is building animosity and resentment, and there's already *way* too much of that going around these days....

I realize this would be absolutely nontrivial, but what about forking the main Firefox source from the same point as Pale Moon (which I think was somewhere around 27.x.x), or perhaps something newer for better feature support, and backport the necessary security patches and stuff? Kinda like a clean room re-implementation of Pale Moon, if you will.

It would certainly take a long time to accomplish, but it would get Matt off your backs by rendering the branding issue completely moot, wouldn't it?

It's just a thought....

c

Let's hope the situation has resolved itself for better or worse, and move on.

To address the rest of your point, it's not nearly as simple as you're thinking. Current Pale Moon 28 is forked from Firefox 52 ESR, not nearly that far back. Recreating Pale Moon would be a very long deviation from the purpose of roy's projects and be pointless, as Pale Moon is open source just as Firefox is.

Tobin seems to be more concerned about his own "Binary Outcast" projects more so than Pale Moon. But same situation here - they're built on open source code, so overall the same rules apply to them as do to Firefox or SeaMonkey and anything else descended from Mozilla.

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1 hour ago, LoneCrusader said:

IIRC that alliance was born out of an act of subterfuge committed by the Federation. And they say we're the dishonorable ones... :whistle:

Just venting one of my pet peeves about the various "24th-century" incarnations of Trek. The Klingons went from being a ruthless, opportunistic enemy in TOS (where they were party to several "dishonorable" acts including planting spies in the Federation) to being the "honorable warrior culture" ally. If anything, the Romulans in TOS, despite being enemies, were portrayed as being much more "honorable" and "duty oriented" and AFAICR never resorted to espionage or sabotage. In TNG and later, their personality mirrors that of the TOS Klingons.

Anyway, moving on, I'm a fan of most of it myself, although TOS and ENT are far superior to the others IMO. Agreed the "reboot" movies are garbage. :angel

Fair point. The official canon does seem to have some interesting inconsistencies. Some of them (such as the almost complete role reversal between the Klingons and Romulans) are pretty obvious. If you look at the events of ST VI, however, you can see that the Klingons, desperately trying to survive after a moon blows up and severely damages their home world, sign a peace treaty with the Federation, realizing that they can't survive without their help, and thereby setting the stage for Klingons as we see them in TNG, which took place maybe 60-80 years after the treaty was signed.

As for the Romulans, I'm not sure. If you think about it, their behavior isn't *too* different, but perhaps they were purposely developed that way to provide a new villain after the Klingons became allies, and since there was only one TOS episode in which they were directly involved, maybe the TNG writers (particularly after season 1) thought they were free to be more creative with them?

I don't know.... :)

I like every series except ENT, because I'm not terribly fond of all the acting (particularly the Vulcan woman, whatever her name is). I don't know about Discovery (the newest one), because CBS is only broadcasting it on their streaming service, which I don't subscribe to, so I can't watch it (maybe they'll put it into syndication on their main TV network someday?)

2 hours ago, LoneCrusader said:

Let's hope the situation has resolved itself for better or worse, and move on.

To address the rest of your point, it's not nearly as simple as you're thinking. Current Pale Moon 28 is forked from Firefox 52 ESR, not nearly that far back. Recreating Pale Moon would be a very long deviation from the purpose of roy's projects and be pointless, as Pale Moon is open source just as Firefox is.

Tobin seems to be more concerned about his own "Binary Outcast" projects more so than Pale Moon. But same situation here - they're built on open source code, so overall the same rules apply to them as do to Firefox or SeaMonkey and anything else descended from Mozilla.

Hmm, I didn't realize it was based on such a recent version! I guess they basically took the rendering engine and such and grafted the pre-28 UI onto it? That's very interesting!

I suppose it would be pointless, but as you said, Pale Moon (and all other related projects, presumably) are open source, and anyone is free to do exactly what roytam1 has done. At least legally.

But, at what point does New Moon become different enough that it would warrant changing things internally such that it has it's own separate profile folder? and would it really break things to simply change that path?

I'm not the most adept at programming (yet!), so please pardon my ignorance here!

c

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