My Browser Builds (Part 5)

[NotHereToPlayGames]

19 minutes ago, UCyborg said:

Isn't this slowly changing with this decade?

I really don't see anything different between this decade, last decade, and the decade prior to that.

I bought my first computer in 1991 - and that predates the existence of javascript.  Sure, prior to that it was a Commodore 64 - and yep, I had internet on that ol' C64 that dad bought us circa '83 or so.
Web sites thought they were being "cute" if they employed Shockwave, or Flash, or Java, or ActiveX, or VBScript, or scrolling/blinking text, or background MIDI music.
Even back then, there were 10% of us that knew how to block/disable these ANNOYANCES.
Why did we hunt down ways to block them?  Because they crashed our browser or consumed all of our RAM or pegged our CPU.

Then javascript was introduced.
And with it came the advent of pop-ups and pop-unders.  With only 10% of us knowing the difference between a pop-up and a pop-under.  Or even knowing something like a pop-under is even a thing.
Very quick to the scene was "ad-blockers" to assist the 90% that didn't already know how to prevent them.
But that 10% still had tricks up their sleeves that the 90% were totally clueless on.
The 90% only cared about pop-up ads.  The 10% knew about HOSTS files and third-party cookies.
But it was still only 10% of the total global internet user.

I say that even nowadays, it's only 10% of us.
Where does that number come from?  Sure, I admit that it's kind of plucked from my butt.
But if I go to the Chrome Web Store and visit uBlock Origin, it cites 40,000,000 users (40 million).
A Google for "how many internet users globally" returns an AI Overview citing 5,520,000,000 users (5.52 billion).

40 million is only 0.72% of 5.52 billion.  But that's also just uBlock Origin.
We also have Privacy Badger  --  a tiny 1,000,000 users per CWS.
And AdBlock  --  63,000,000 users per CWS (okay, I would have assumed uBO to be higher than AdBlock).  63 million is 1.14% of 5.52 billion.
Ghostery  --  a tiny 2,000,000 users ber CWS.
Factor in that for every 72 CWS users (Chrome+Edge), there is another 28 using Safari, Firefox, or Opera.

You can see where I'm going.  Assuming that 10% of the global internet userbase is "debloating" their internet experience is probably a very *HIGH* estimate.
Sure, some searches will tell you that 31% to 36% of users use ad blockers.  But blocking an ad and "debloating" are not the same thing.

[Mark-XP]

Sice the discussion is getting more and more ot, here is my ot contribution: there's a new hymn for Serpent:

https://clementnourry.bandcamp.com/track/serpent-2

[AstroSkipper]

Personally, I don't expect to be able to surf every website properly with UXP browsers. The bloated, modern and totally over-greedy websites simply have to be accessed with other browsers or devices. Since there's a lot of Googlised junk on them, such sites are thrown at my Android (Google) tablet. That works great.  Spoken for me only, I don't like the modern web layout. In my opinion, the entire development of websites is going in the completely wrong direction. I would rather focus on fast page loading and compatibility than overloading pages with all kinds of bells and whistles. 

[NotHereToPlayGames]

I'm at the age where I don't really have a use for the bloated modern web.  I do not have a Facebook account.  I do not have an Instagram account.  I do not have a Twitter/X account.  I watch news on TV instead of read online.  Et cetera.

So I guess from that paradigm, I kind of have no clue just what "bloated" really "is" and/or "means".

Oh, wait, I do YouTube "nowadays", I can count that as "bloated".  BUT...  I disable the "chat" sh#t.  I block the ads.  Et cetera.  So even YouTube doesn't feel "bloated" to me.

I mean, come on, do we live in such a world of "social media" that people visit YOUTUBE to watch a music video and then post "comments" in some stupid "chat section" ???

If so, I guess it's official, I have turned into my grandpa and I'm "too old for this sh#t", lol.

[Kmuland]

The early internet that we knew was a big library where everyone shared info and content.

The modern internet is a shopping centre, and browsers money makers machines.

Just fire the start page and it is already making money from you....do a search, visit a page, everything.... and remember.,,.... if you computer goes slow or run out of memory... its cause you need to buy new hardware for internet browsing...

Adblocking is just the top of the big iceberg...

Edited November 10 by Kmuland

[Mathwiz]

14 hours ago, UCyborg said:

Google doesn't want you to be in control.

Amen.

14 hours ago, UCyborg said:

MCP crew is just riding on the high horse of being ethically and morally better than Google/Mozilla/Microsoft while no one takes them seriously

There is some truth in that. Case in point: MCP's refusal to support modern EMEs like WideVine because they're opposed to EMEs philosophically. Or for that matter refusal to support e10s because "I'm a browser, dammit, not an OS!" Do they really think those decisions have caused anyone else to rethink their own decisions?

Edited November 10 by Mathwiz

[j7n]

On 11/10/2024 at 6:05 AM, Mathwiz said:

Javascript wasn't originally designed to do the kinds of tasks modern Web sites have it doing now.

I  found a website that runs Windows 3.11 inside the web browser. It seems to be a DosBox in JavaScript and not a remote desktop. Jesus. On my computer it is unusable in New Moon.

pieter.com

[UCyborg]

On 11/10/2024 at 11:08 AM, NotHereToPlayGames said:

I really don't see anything different between this decade, last decade, and the decade prior to that.

I just don't remember having that kind of issues with web in the decade up-to year 2010. But I never used a browser that was considered alternative either. The only browsers I used were Internet Explorer and then Firefox. Back then I just lived with ads, don't remember when I discovered AdBlock Plus, must have been the first extension I used for blocking ads.

2 hours ago, j7n said:

I found a website that runs Windows 3.11 inside the web browser. It seems to be a DosBox in JavaScript and not a remote desktop. Jesus. On my computer it is unusable in New Moon.

pieter.com

Not even Solitaire?

Here's a bigger collection of operating systems running on V86: https://copy.sh/v86/

At least Pinball on Win95 is playable here, not silky smooth though. Emulators are a bit extreme, even natively, there's a rule you need much stronger CPU than the one you're emulating, ports of older games are more manageable, though not necessarily on UXP. QuakeJS is smooth on my Phenom II, at least under Chromium. I posted the link to Browser Doom few months back, but the site has disappeared, this one was a bit easier on UXP browsers, but that's Doom.

https://old.reddit.com/r/itrunsdoom/

22 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

There is some truth in that. Case in point: MCP's refusal to support modern EMEs like WideVine because they're opposed to EMEs philosophically.

There are also extra financial costs supporting Widevine I think.

22 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

Or for that matter refusal to support e10s because "I'm a browser, dammit, not an OS!" Do they really think those decisions have caused anyone else to rethink their own decisions?

No, but could they even do that, if they wanted? Would Mozilla really abandon the system for powerful browser altering extensions if it was manageable? Still, some of those APIs must have survived, we actually have bootstrapped, non webext versions of Tab Mix Plus and DownThemAll!

Additionally, if even ad blockers alone aren't as demanded by web users, demand for bells and whistles on the web browser alone will be even lower. It makes sense to prioritize running web content well over additional bells and whistles.

Edited November 11 by UCyborg

[j7n]

I can drag the mouse, but it is not enjoyable. One core of Conroe is pegged at full. Of course a faster CPU solves many problems as with other growing applications. The screen is also upsampled from 800*600 and jaggy with no obvious way of setting the picture to 100%. I'm not complaining that a DosBox is be slow. But just like with playing videos, there is additional overhead from the browser.

I don't see what is gained in this case by putting it inside the web browser. Every time I go to the website, it downloads the 45 MB package. They could give it to me directly, set it up with a batch command to run DosBox with the intended settings and it would be faster, save network traffic and independent of the server being up. It has many preinstalled applications and games, fit within that size. Nice perspective of software bloat that has occurred since.

DRM in Palemoon is about as useful as a fifth wheel. I would put up with sluggish websites if they are free. But paying to watch protected films inside the browser makes no sense.

[UCyborg]

7 hours ago, j7n said:

One core of Conroe is pegged at full. Of course a faster CPU solves many problems as with other growing applications.

That's natural. Any code that doesn't "sleep" will run at 100%, even

int i = 0;
while (1) {
  i++;
}

 

7 hours ago, j7n said:

I don't see what is gained in this case by putting it inside the web browser. Every time I go to the website, it downloads the 45 MB package. They could give it to me directly, set it up with a batch command to run DosBox with the intended settings and it would be faster, save network traffic and independent of the server being up.

Probably just to show that you can. GOG does package DOS games with usual native version of DOSBox.

8 hours ago, j7n said:

DRM in Palemoon is about as useful as a fifth wheel. I would put up with sluggish websites if they are free. But paying to watch protected films inside the browser makes no sense.

Browser is just one option, there are others. And yeah, most people upgrade every once in a while, so overhead most often isn't bothersome. You'd think computer enthusiasts would as well, though I'm not sure where this part of MSFN belongs.

[NotHereToPlayGames]

1 hour ago, UCyborg said:

And yeah, most people upgrade every once in a while, so overhead most often isn't bothersome. You'd think computer enthusiasts would as well, though I'm not sure where this part of MSFN belongs.

<edit:  add OT tag>

 

My conclusion here is that "computer enthusiasts" do NOT end up at MSFN.  Sorry, they just don't.

A "car enthusiast" is someone that owns and upkeeps a "classic" car - you would NEVER hear that "enthusiast" complain, biatch, moan, and whine that their "classic" cannot "do" the same things that a "modern" car can "do".

Again, just "my" conclusion, but what we have here are NOT "computer enthusiasts".

Sorry, been there, done that.  I was on XP up until just this year.  I quite literally removed my last strangle-hold (my Acer Aspire One POS) from daily-use just yesterday (replaced with an i5 which still does not qualify as "modern").

It's time for us to face facts and ADMIT that "we" are NOT "computer enthusiasts" !!! !!! !!!  Calling ourselves such is a Red Herring !!! !!! !!!

Cheap?  Frugal?  Nostalgic?  Dance to the rhythm of our own drum?  These all define "us" better than PRETENDING to be "computer enthusiasts".

My brother is a "phone enthusiast".  Where I do not own a phone!  No land line, no mobile, no "burner", NO PHONE AT ALL.

He will "upgrade" three or four times a year!  Sure, not "every" year, but still.  That (to me) is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever witnessed!  Like trading in a car and taking *depreciation* up the, um, well, the area where our body exits waste.

We are not "computer enthusiasts".  CHEAP is a better word.  But none of us will like the negative connotations that it seems to carry.

Sure, there are countries that are impoverished and those countries receive donated XP Era computers from other countries that are not impoverished.

But again, let's face facts, the countries receiving these donated computers DO NOT define themselves as "computer enthusiasts".  They thank us for the donation and grin ear to ear for their gift.

 

A "car enthusiast" has five or six of them when the average person has only one or two.

A "phone enthusiast" has five or six of them when the average person has only one or two.

A "XP era computer enthusiast" has five or six of them when the average person has one or even ZERO of them.

 

But the OT Police will be here shortly.  So off I go, lol...

Edited November 12 by NotHereToPlayGames

[Sampei.Nihira]

I agree 100%.
One can also write that MSFN members have a lot of time to devote to solving the “problems” they have created.
That most PC enthusiasts do not have.
From my point of view it is as fascinating as when we opened a time capsule at school (50 years had passed) before my retirement.
Time only flows forward whether we like it or not.
I am lucky because I have an open mind probably due to my former job.
Many people my age deliberately live in the past.
I have decided that it is more useful to adapt to adapt to the future (although I would like to stay in the past) by teaching if it is possible to people less young than me (my daughter,my son-in-law.....members of forums younger than me) to improve this THEIR future thanks also to a good dose of the mentality of the past.

Please forgive this OT.

[modnar]

4 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

<edit:  add OT tag>

 

My conclusion here is that "computer enthusiasts" do NOT end up at MSFN...

What if we don't finy any suitable OS to upgrade to from XP? I certainly do not. It all went downhill with "modular Windows" (Vista and up) and still going, fiercely.

Anyhow something seriously has to be done with Serpent/UXP browser bombarding D3D(9) library with graphics calls. See? Not off topic.

Edit: layers.prefer-d3d9=True doesn't help (much)...

Edited November 12 by modnar

[NotHereToPlayGames]

57 minutes ago, modnar said:

What if we don't finy any suitable OS to upgrade to from XP?

 

That basically kind of makes my point.  MSFN will not teach you how to debloat XP, Vista, 7, 10, 11...  People that truly want to learn that don't land here at MSFN.  Sorry, they just don't.  (At least I certainly don't see it!)

Most of us forget that XP was also a very HEAVY operating system with a lot of "bloat".  We just had 20 years to get it to our liking and only want to spend 20 minutes to get our next OS "to our liking".

Edited November 12 by NotHereToPlayGames

[UCyborg]

14 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

My conclusion here is that "computer enthusiasts" do NOT end up at MSFN.  Sorry, they just don't.

Yeah, that makes sense. Or different spectrum / area of interest. I'm probably on the wrong forum. Honestly, I have no idea where I fit.

14 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said:

But the OT Police will be here shortly.  So off I go, lol...

It seems to patrol Chromium threads more often.

10 hours ago, modnar said:

Anyhow something seriously has to be done with Serpent/UXP browser bombarding D3D(9) library with graphics calls.

https://www.live2tech.com/turn-off-hardware-acceleration-firefox/

Edited November 12 by UCyborg