Modern motherboards which are working with Windows 98 (discussion)

[rloew]

USB Audio generally works well with Windows 98SE. Even many of the new Devices are compatable.

Okay, so call me stupid but I've had very little to no experience in USB audio devices. Is that something that just plugs into the USB port, runs a driver, and then just works? That would be very useful in something like for example, a laptop that has nothing but high definition audio codecs.

Yes, for the basic ones at least. A more complex one may not be compatabile. Check before you buy.

[Yedi]

Thanks You for reply.

 

Do You remember games that used EAX ? And it worked properly ?

If the EAX works and the experience in game will be much more "gaming" than normal sound card it worth a shot to go to the option nr 2.

I can buy one of those http://www.shuttle.eu/_archive/older/en/sb61g2.htm

It has 1 AGP slot and a 1 PCI slot which is sufficient for my build.

But again. Will the SB be much superior than any SB compatible card (SB Extigy or CMI chipset) ? When i had XP I hated cmi chipsets because of SQ and poor drivers.

[ragnargd]

I had exactly that shuttle model just two years ago.

My box was quite loud because of that particular cooler... :-D

... so i sold it, as i'm particularly allergic to noise (all my PCs have passively cooled GPUs and CPUs, and SSDs, and a maximum of two silent 12"/14" case-coolers).

 

I have a SB Audigy PCI and a SB Audigy 2 Platinum PCI in my W98SE in use, and i like those EAX 2.0 effects very much (i.e. on Baldurs Gate or Half Life - the card can do EAX 3.0 as well, but i don't have games that use it, even modern ones like Stalker only make use of EAX 2.0).

 

For the AGP slot i recommend a NVidia 7600GT AGP 256MB, as it is as fast as an NVdia 6800GT, but uses less power, and thus stays much cooler.

If you can't get hold of one, an NVidia 6600 AGP 256MB might be fast enough for your needs, but it depends... but it's still good in terms of thermics.

In that box, you will otherwise tend to have thermal problems (the P4 produces quite some heat as well, so it stacks up).

 

Good luck!

 

Cheers, Ragnar G.D.

Edited November 11, 2015 by ragnargd

[xrayer]

Hi,

anyone else did try some newer intel 6x/7x/8x board since my last try?

Now I have GIGABYTE GA-P67-DS3-B3 with Award preUEFI BIOS + Sandybridge intel core i3 CPU.

I set my SETUP options to max. conservative and legacy (IDE mode and so on)

I limit the XMS with himemx /MAX=512M

My current installation of W98SE is unable to boot neither in safe mode, don't display any message.

For my curiosity I ran istallations of all following systems:

Win95, Win95 OSR2, Win98, Win98SE, WinME

On all systems I was able to pass 1st installation phase that ended with request for reboot (youi know that window reboot in 15, 14, 13... s)

But after reboot it never comes up. It always hanged after files are update, loading windows message. Except WinME that restarted instead hang but it's same effect. I tried safe mode and various options of win.com but without any success. I didn't find anything usefull in bootlog.txt - there was any error and sometimes the last line was unfinished and rest of file filled by some binary garbage. In WinME log last lines are:

 

[00011171] Loading Vxd = msmouse.vxd
[00011171] LoadSuccess = msmouse.vxd
[00011171] Loading Vxd = dynapage
[00011171] LoadSuccess = dynapage
[00011171] Loading Vxd = vcd
[00011171] LoadSuccess = vcd
[00011171] Loading Vxd = vpd
[00011171] LoadSuccess = vpd
[00011171] Loading Vxd = int13
[00011171] LoadSuccess = int13
[00011171] Loading Vxd = VDD
[00011171] LoadSuccess = VDD
[00011171] Loading Vxd = VKD
[00011171] LoadSuccess = VKD
 

I wonder that I was unable to run even poor safe mode on all of W9x systems

I'd like to know if someone else succeed on new intel core with different chipset or different BIOS.

BTW Windows NT 4.0 with UniATA and VBEMP run fine on this MB, my DOS programs including network too. So why are Win9x so poor? Waht BIOS API is missing or what HW component cause the incompatability?

[pangoomis]

Have you tried to install with ACPI disabled? "setup /p i"?

Limit the amount of RAM using MaxPhysPage.

These are the only things I need to install 98SE on my Lenovo IdeaPad Z510, maybe it'll work for you too.

Edited November 16, 2015 by MrMateczko

[xrayer]

Yes, I limit the RAM via XMS and system.ini as standard process.

In my BIOS I don't have any option to disable ACPI, you mean just use /p i switch? I didn't remember it and it's not listed by /? - a hidden feature? I can try again. Isn't ACPI stuff loaded later in 2nd phase of installation where PnP devices are detected (after reboot)?

 

BTW I found this video (if not a fake) proving W98 run on core i7 3960X (AMI BIOS)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOWzorOD-II

[jaclaz]

Setup /p, the undocumented switch. JFYI :

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/45373-new-ideas-for-the-next-version/?p=321473

 

Actually documented:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/186111

 

You want to try setup /p i ... but maybe (who knows) even j might work in your case

 

jaclaz

Edited November 16, 2015 by jaclaz

[Drugwash]

Since it's an AWARD BIOS you may try the 'advanced options' trick: hit CTRL + F1 once while you're at the main BIOS screen.

If you're lucky there will be additional options available in certain sections and even new section(s) may appear (screen will briefly flicker).

That may offer the possibility to tweak certain settings that are usually unavailable, such as ACPI.

 

Also, when such problems appear it may help temporarily disable (if possible) any non-critical built-in devices such as LPT, COM, Sound, Modem etc.

Once you get the installation to finish succesfully (again: if you're lucky) you may reenable the necessary ones one by one and hope to find drivers for them (and not hang again).

[xrayer]

>Drugwash

Yes, I already have GB P31 MB so I know CTRL+F1 trick. On this MB it onlu unhide one option - the PCI latency, thats's unrelated to this issue. I already set the BIOS much fail safe as possible, disables USB, HDA, NX, VTX, HT, set 1 core, sata IDE mode...

 

>MrMateczko

Well, it's positive that Win98 works on your i7 Haswell so newer CPU and chipset is no crucial problem (drivers will be but it's not fatal for bare system)

 

>jaclaz

Thanks for the documentation. I just tried both /p i and /p j options (2 installations) but seems no difference, always hangs after 1st boot.

Also the bootlog looks very similar - the last line is a binary garbage all the time...

See here:

http://rayer.g6.cz/1tmp/GA-P67-DS3-B3/boot95.txt

http://rayer.g6.cz/1tmp/GA-P67-DS3-B3/bootme.txt

http://rayer.g6.cz/1tmp/GA-P67-DS3-B3/boot98pi.txt

Anyone have a clue? It seems to die quite on early stage of boot, I doubt PnP/ACPI stuff plays role here...

[dencorso]

Try rloew's RAM Limitation Patch demo. I bet it'll work. Do try it even if you don't intend to buy. If it works, you'll know the problem is in VMM.VxD.

[xrayer]

Holy f*ck!

I just plugged my SATA HDD to another port and it works! Instalation process continued, detected devices, another reboot and wow, I have a basic working desktop. It boots within 11s (80GB older seagate, no SSD). Even I was able to boot my previous installation - it redetected the HW but there are left some issuses. USB seems not work at all and Realtek RTL8111E has conflict mark (it worked with older RTL8111B - I though it's just minor difference and drivers would work.). Anaway I'm happy with this limited functionality.

 

What is the difference between SATA ports? Before the change I had it plugged to SATA3 port 0. And for some obscure reason, Win9x doesn't like SATA3 ports even if set to IDE legacy mode (for ports 0-3). Other 2 SATA2 ports works fine (the rest 2 are unavailable in IDE mode). What's interesting - it works in AHCI mode. If AHCI mode is selected, then AHCI PCI option ROM is activated and it take control of INT13h and I can then use any SATA port (yes, also SATA3) and Win9x boots from it. Here's summary:

 

SATA3_0 = CH0, master (cannot boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE mode but can boot in AHCI mode)
SATA3_1 = CH1, master (cannot boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE mode but can boot in AHCI mode)
SATA2_2 = CH0, slave (can boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE and AHCI mode)
SATA2_3 = CH1, slave (can boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE and AHCI mode)
SATA2_4 = RAID/AHCI port 4 (can boot Win98 in AHCI mode)
SATA2_5 = RAID/AHCI port 5 (can boot Win98 in AHCI mode)
 

On current machine I have W98+DOS+NT4 on SSD primary partition 0, WinXP on SSD primary partition 1, linux on primary partition 2 + data HDD and I'd like to profit from SATA3 connection. So I would need to move W98 on data HDD or try AHCI way (but AHCI is problematic for direct access tools)...

Edited November 17, 2015 by xrayer

[LoneCrusader]

Hi,

anyone else did try some newer intel 6x/7x/8x board since my last try?

I've been working some with newer Intel boards but I haven't made it that far yet. I've been stepping up bit by bit, looking for issues and solutions.

The last board I tried with was a P45/ICH10 chipset board. I have 98SE up and running on it just fine, but for some reason 95 OSR2 doesn't load on this system with the same video card (7950GT) that it worked with on the previous X48/ICH9 system.

I am using rloew's RAM and SATA patches and would not even make them attempt without them though...

SETUP /P I as mentioned is very useful in eliminating ACPI-related issues and random conflicts in the Device Manager, especially ones on "Motherboard resources." rloew has also recently developed some patches for the 7xxx NVidia graphics cards and we also identified some situations where other patches are needed to handle system-specific conflicts.

I have an Intel P67 board but haven't experimented with it yet. Other experiments are on hold until I can devote some more money to the project.

I did also create a set of INF's for 9x that is equivalent to version 9.4.0.1017 of the Chipset Identicfication Utility (the last for XP I believe??). They differ from the older ones you created in that they are designed for "slipstreaming" rather than installing with an installer. I have not released them publicly because I haven't gotten around to writing a README to explain their use in a non-slipstreamed setup.

[rloew]

Holy f*ck!

I just plugged my SATA HDD to another port and it works! Instalation process continued, detected devices, another reboot and wow, I have a basic working desktop. It boots within 11s (80GB older seagate, no SSD). Even I was able to boot my previous installation - it redetected the HW but there are left some issuses. USB seems not work at all and Realtek RTL8111E has conflict mark (it worked with older RTL8111B - I though it's just minor difference and drivers would work.). Anaway I'm happy with this limited functionality.

The standard Windows 9x drivers don't support RTL8111D or RTL8111E. I found a driver that was intended for another product that works but throws a warning on every boot and only runs at 100MB not 1GB.

What is the difference between SATA ports? Before the change I had it plugged to SATA3 port 0. And for some obscure reason, Win9x doesn't like SATA3 ports even if set to IDE legacy mode (for ports 0-3). Other 2 SATA2 ports works fine (the rest 2 are unavailable in IDE mode). What's interesting - it works in AHCI mode. If AHCI mode is selected, then AHCI PCI option ROM is activated and it take control of INT13h and I can then use any SATA port (yes, also SATA3) and Win9x boots from it. Here's summary:

AHCI Mode changes the Class Code so Windows 9x will not recognize it. It only works because you are in compatability mode.

SATA3_0 = CH0, master (cannot boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE mode but can boot in AHCI mode)

SATA3_1 = CH1, master (cannot boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE mode but can boot in AHCI mode)

SATA2_2 = CH0, slave (can boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE and AHCI mode)

SATA2_3 = CH1, slave (can boot Win98 in SATA native/IDE and AHCI mode)

SATA2_4 = RAID/AHCI port 4 (can boot Win98 in AHCI mode)

SATA2_5 = RAID/AHCI port 5 (can boot Win98 in AHCI mode)

On current machine I have W98+DOS+NT4 on SSD primary partition 0, WinXP on SSD primary partition 1, linux on primary partition 2 + data HDD and I'd like to profit from SATA3 connection. So I would need to move W98 on data HDD or try AHCI way (but AHCI is problematic for direct access tools)...

I'm not sure what is different between SATA3 and SATA2. Maybe one is in legacy Mode and the other in Native Mode.

[xrayer]

>LoneCrusader

Plese could you send me your intel INF 9.4.0.1017 mod for personal testing as you don't have time to finish it?

 

What "patches for the 7xxx" are developed? To fix the windows shutdown issue? I don't have any other problem with that latest unofficial drivers on my 7900GT.

 

>rloew

Did you investigate the differences between 8111B and E? I belive it would't differ much. I used older NDIS driver RTEND.DOS for DOS TCP/IP from 2011 and it works fine with 8111B and 8111E too. I tried to edit the INF file of latest Win9x driver (30.10.2008) and imported there 8111E specifics (chip revision 6 section, registry entries..) from the INF file of XP drivers. Win98 detected my 8111E but I got ! mark in device manager. I got also error 1F6 during installation of my modded INF. Then I tried to boot with RTENIC.SYS from older 2k/XP drivers (year 2009 - supp. 8011D and 2010 - supp. 8011E) it booted but still with ! mark. There are no HW resources conflicts. Maybe the Win9x RTENIC.SYS could be patched - if there is some chip revision check inside to bypass or so...

I also got idea about HW chip downgrade (I work with QFN chips at work quite often but I can see that 8111E has different package and pinout that 8111B so direct replacement is not possible.

Would you reveal what other driver you find to work? Limitation to 100Mbit absolutely don't bother me, the warning is problem but I'd like to test it.

 

Yes I know that Win9x don't recognize AHCI (this should work now for NT4 with UniATA driver) and INT13h extension take place so Win98 can run via BIOS access - compatability mode. It means performance degradation but not so ugly, even when put on SSD...

 

I belived that SATA3 (6 Gb/s) should be 100% compatible with SATA2 (3 Gb/s). The BIOS should provide SATA IDE legacy mode and SATA IDE native mode same way for both class of ports but it's not 100% well done. While NT4 or DOS doesn't see difference between ports Win9x see. I think that this may be problem of BIOS that doesn't setup SATA3 ports 100% correctly to legacy mode (maybe SMI IO trapping is involved) or it may be HW issue that SATA3 (at least intel's implementation) controller has some differences that cannot be configured by BIOS to 100% compatability mode. This is probaby also the reason why my previous experiment with Win98 on B75 board ~2 years ago failed - I also had connected the SSD on SATA3 port (of course)...

It would be good to highlight this information someway here on forum so another experimentators wouldn't fall into the same trap (and save a day of endless reinstallations trials

Edited November 18, 2015 by xrayer

[rloew]

LoneCrusader is referring to the Patches I developed to correct problems that occur with 512MB 7xxx series cards.

I already tried modifying the RTENIC.SYS file but have not yet found the version check code, if any.

The Tenda TEL9901G driver on their website appears to have been intended to support the RTL8111 but was abandoned at some point. The INF file has an entry for the RTL8111 but it is commented out.

You will need to verify that the SATA3 Ports are in Legacy Mode not Native Mode.