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Petr

Unsupported hardware in 1803 and 1809?

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It looks like some hardware platforms are no longer supported by new builds of Windows 10.

1. MSI 915GM Speedster-FA4 with Intel® Pentium® M Processor 750 (Dothan)

It works with all builds of Windows 10 up to 1709. Update to 1803 or 1809 ends with error, usually popular IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL error.

2. Fujitsu-Siemens Esprimo Q5010 with Intel® Core™ Duo Processor T2300E (Yonah) and 945GM chipset, I have 2 pieces with same behavior

It works fine with all builds of Windows 10 up to 1803. Update to 1809 fails, even the boot from the flas ends with blue windows logo and no rotating white circle.

Does anybody know what is the reason? Is this valid for all systems with the same configuration or it is just my bad luck? Is there any way how to make build 1809 working on these old pieces of hardware?

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:hello:  Hi, Petr! It's good to hear from you! :yes:
I imagine it's the lack of processor support for some instruction that wasn't required before and now suddenly became mandatory.
In case I'm right, it's happened before, not so long ago, on the transition from 8 to 8.1...

On 10/15/2016 at 9:26 PM, dencorso said:

My take: the only really strong reason to remain at 8.0 is to avoid decommissioning (= retiring) perfectly good and healthy older hardware, which is Jody's original reason. Of course, one can stay on 8.0 for other reasons, all perfectly reasonable, but deciding to keep one's loved/trusty hardware may compel one to stop at 8.0, if one wishes to use the x64 version (the hardware requirements discussed in the quotations below apply to x64 only!). 

On 12/19/2015 at 12:13 AM, dencorso said:

It seems to me that Intel processors that are unable to run 8.1 and 10 lack PREFETCHW, which all multicore AMD processors do include, whereas most multicore AMDs that are unable to run 8.1 and 10 lack CMPXCHG16b, instead. However, at this point, this is little more than just a guess. I know for sure all Athlon XPs cannot run even 8.0, because they lack SSE2, among other things, but not all Athlon 64 X2 and later AMD processors are able to run 8.1 or 10 but all seem to be able to run 8.0...

On 9/9/2016 at 5:06 PM, dencorso said:

It's no guess anymore, but fact. Of course we're talking about processors Intel from Jan 2006 or newer.
Later Addition: It turns out that the 1st Intel processor to support PREFETCHW was Cedar Mill, the 65 nM final revision of the Pentium 4 released on January 5, 2006. And it seems that the 1st AMDs to support CMPXCHG16B were the Bulldozers, from late 2011!!!
Sysinternals' CoreInfo is the right tool to test whether a machine has those requirements or not.

NB: Care when interpreting CoreInfo's results: in them a "*" means "yes" and a "-" means "no", but all the features it tests are alway listed. So, the excerpt below means "YES Supports CMPXCHG16B and NO Support for PREFETCHW":


...
CX16          *    Supports CMPXCHG16B instruction
...
PREFETCHW     -    Supports PREFETCHW instruction
...

It may simply be that they've given the next mini-step and are now refusing processors not supporting x86-64 mode even when installing a x86 version of Win 10. :wacko:  Of course it's nonsense to require x86-64 support to run in x86 mode only, but MS stopped trying to make sense long ago, so it'd not surprise me if this guess turns out to be right.

====

Another possibility (albeit less probable, IMO) is some artificial block like the one described and bypassed in this beautiful project elsewhere.

Of course, any of the above are just my best guesses, I have not performed any tests nor read anything about it prior to your post... and YMMV.
 

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Coreinfo for Core Duo T2300E shows:

X64       	-	Supports 64-bit mode
...
CX16      	-	Supports CMPXCHG16B instruction
...
PREFETCHW 	-	Supports PREFETCHW instruction

and  Windows 10 up to build 1809 work fine.

Between Core Duo (Yonah) and Core 2 Duo (Merom) are the following differences.

According to AIDA64, Merom supports the following instructions while Yonah not:

64-bit instructions
Supplemental SSE3
CMPXCHG16B
INVPCID
Virtual Machine Extensions (VMX; Vanderpool)
36-bit Page Size Extension
64-bit DS Area
CPL Qualified Debug Store

 Microsoft has the following requirement for 64-bit version of Windows 10 and Windows 8.1 only

Quote

64-bit versions of Windows 10 require a processor that supports CMPXCHG16b, PrefetchW, and LAHF/SAHF capabilities.

And the difference between Dothan and Yonah is support of:

SSE3
MONITOR / MWAIT
Digital Thermometer
Enhanced Halt State (C1E)

Hard to say, what causes no support of Yonah on 1809 build.

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On 11/22/2018 at 7:54 PM, Petr said:

Virtual Machine Extensions (VMX; Vanderpool)

It seems the new kernel requires VT-x, even for x86 versions... but I've not yet found a reliable source for this info, just hearsay... sorry!

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Now here's my question:  is Windows 10 not supposed to be supported for the life of the device it's installed on?  Does this not nullify Microsoft's agreement?

 

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Well what if thats true.... but the good ol' MS guys decided that they get to decide what the life of your hardware is?

Edited by i430VX
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Just stop using this trash, v1809 is the worse of all versions, I do not use 10 as my every day OS, but I have a partition with 1709 updated to Dic 2017 and all is working fine, updates service is disabled and metered connection selected just in case, to aboid updates.

Edited by alacran
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I got version 1803 on my desktop. I found some under-the-hood changes beneficial in my every day usage. Didn't really think I'd be saying that after the experience from a year or two ago. I don't intend to switch to newer build at this time. I doubt anything that would interest me is coming, plus, the split personality between Settings app and Control Panel remains irritating.

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On 11/27/2018 at 10:57 AM, Jody Thornton said:

Now here's my question:  is Windows 10 not supposed to be supported for the life of the device it's installed on?  Does this not nullify Microsoft's agreement?

 

maybe that statement does not apply to certain editions of Windows 10 like the LTSB/LTSC editions, which get about 10 years worth of support & updates.

oh yes I do run a Win10 LTSB 2016 version on one of my old PCs (using onboard nVidia nforce 430 / Geforce 6150SE graphics chipset) and it runs just fine.  plus LTSB/LTSC does not get any "feature updates", meaning no upgrades to newer Win10 builds.

Edited by erpdude8

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On 11/22/2018 at 1:54 PM, Petr said:

Enhanced Halt State (C1E)

Hard to say, what causes no support of Yonah on 1809 build.

 

that's easy Petr.  Intel Yonah CPUs are 32bit only, no 64bit support -instruction set is always 32bit.  Coreinfo app is reporting wrong info for the T2300E CPU as that processor is 32bit/x86 only.  the CPU-Z tool should report better accurate info about the T2300e CPU than Coreinfo.

I tried to boot from Win10 v1809 install media (either the regular Win10 1809 versions or the LTSC 2019 release) on an old Dell Inspiron e1405 laptop [which also uses Intel 945GM chipset] and it would just hang on the Windows logo screen for many hours doing nothing (no spinning dots on that boot screen).  That is until I changed the processor from an Intel Core Duo T2700 (Yonah) to an Intel Core 2 Duo T7600 (Merom).  After upgrading the CPU to the T7600, I booted again from the v1809 usb install media and it went through with no problems and no lockups.

Edit 2/28 about the Dell e1405: It seems the v1803 release of win10 worked fine with the Intel Yonah Core Duo CPU on the dell e1405 laptop but not the v1809 release; only when I upgraded the CPU to any Socket M based Intel Merom CPU that I can run the 1809 version.

So upgrade the processor on the Fujitsu-Siemens Esprimo Q5010 machine to an Intel T7200, T7400 or T7600 processor and see what happens (may also need a BIOS update to support the T7200/T7400/T7600 processors since my Dell e1405 laptop already had bios support for these cpus w/ bios rev. A10)

And for the MSI 915GM Speedster-FA4 computer, you are better off running Win10 LTSB 2016, which is based on v1607 (see that is why I like to run the older LTSB/LTSC editions of Win10 on old hardware that can't work with newer Win10 releases, except for LTSC 2019 which requires newer hardware)

On 11/30/2018 at 6:54 AM, UCyborg said:

that problem eventually got fixed by MS starting with the KB4476976 update in late January 2019, which resolves the compatibility problem with older AMD graphics cards.

Edit 2/28: There's a topic in the Ten forums about running Win10 on really old hardware, especially old machines using Intel 915G/GM chipsets.

 

Edited by erpdude8
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