Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble

MSFN is made available via donations, subscriptions and advertising revenue. The use of ad-blocking software hurts the site. Please disable ad-blocking software or set an exception for MSFN. Alternatively, register and become a site sponsor/subscriber and ads will be disabled automatically. 


roytam1

My build of New Moon (temp. name) a.k.a. Pale Moon fork targetting XP

Recommended Posts

@Matt A. Tobin <--

I actually agree that it is reasonable to request that the current RT websites in use have DISCLAIMERS
that state that PALE MOON does NOT SUPPORT the RT 'XP OS' Browsers.

As far as a RT 'XP OS' Browser WEBSITE, maybe an 'Official' GITHUB.COM site would be a solution.
https://github.com/Feodor2/Mypal
MYPAL Browser (XP OS) does use a GITHUB site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On 2/27/2019 at 11:43 PM, Matt A. Tobin said:

This is totally unacceptable.. I gave you good faith instructions and you go and act snarky and utterly backhanded with it?

Remove my name, my organization, and my brands from ALL of your pages in that case. All of it. I want no mention of it.

I have to quote this, for the reason why I can't make disclaimer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could just say something along the lines of "These projects have no affiliation with any upstream community code sources or organizations. Please direct all support or related questions to X".

It doesn't take a p***ed off man with a 137 IQ to work that out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

You could just say something along the lines of "These projects have no affiliation with any upstream community code sources or organizations. Please direct all support or related questions to X".

added

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TechnoRelic said:

@Matt A. Tobin <--

I actually agree that it is reasonable to request that the current RT websites in use have DISCLAIMERS
that state that PALE MOON does NOT SUPPORT the RT 'XP OS' Browsers.

As far as a RT 'XP OS' Browser WEBSITE, maybe an 'Official' GITHUB.COM site would be a solution.
https://github.com/Feodor2/Mypal
MYPAL Browser (XP OS) does use a GITHUB site.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

So the confusion doesn't exist except that users are confused and coming to me. Look, I am simply tired of explaining it. I shouldn't HAVE to disclaim downstream projects or explain to user after user how what they are running isn't my project.

You want constructive? Well how about providing a real website, real branding, and real support venues and making it clear that the projects are NOT related to their upstream. Instead of this smattering of low level fragmented non-efforts provided thus far..

I had no intention of returning back here but your users are confused and bothering me. So this becomes your problem.

BUT if you think it will help.. Here: http://binaryoutcast.com/projects/interlink/#faq

Dude, YOU'RE THE ONE CRYING ABOUT THIS,THAT MAKES IT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO SAY YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT THESE BROWSERS BECAUSE YOU ARE AWARE OF THEM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TechnoRelic said:

@Matt A. Tobin <--

I actually agree that it is reasonable to request that the current RT websites in use have DISCLAIMERS
that state that PALE MOON does NOT SUPPORT the RT 'XP OS' Browsers.

As far as a RT 'XP OS' Browser WEBSITE, maybe an 'Official' GITHUB.COM site would be a solution.
https://github.com/Feodor2/Mypal
MYPAL Browser (XP OS) does use a GITHUB site.

And it makes just as much sense to have the PALE MOON websites in use have DISCLAIMERS THAT PALE MOON does NOT SUPPORT the RT 'XP OS' Browsers.

It's a two-way street, pinhead.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matt A. Tobin said: You could just say something along the lines of "These projects have no affiliation with any upstream community code sources or organizations. ".


Seriously? That's dev speak, no normal user will have any clue what especially "upstream" means, and be confused yet more. And riddling what those mysterious other code sources or organizations might be.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

LOL, couldn't help drafting such a disclaimer novel ;-P
"For any help, support and discussion of roytam1 browsers, the best place is here: (link to NewMoon topic in msfn)
Attention: Do not under any circumstances bother the PaleMoon team, especially Moonchild and Matt A. Tobin, with anything related to this forked browser, to anything XP-related, or mention any of roytam1 browser builds in the Pale Moon forum. They intentionally removed all XP-support for their products a long time ago, and do NOT tolerate any longer to be bothered by people using forked builds, especially not forks with restored XP support. Only discussion of their own original builds is allowed there. They have very STRICTLY declared this multiple times, in their own forum and also in the MSFN forum. So, please, abide by their request and go to MSFN only for support."

Edited by dencorso
Added "So, please, abide by their request and go to MSFN only for support."
  • Like 7
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 4/23/2019 at 2:07 AM, 3dreal said:

e.g. this instruction video for Winfuture Updatepacks:

https://winfuture.de/UpdatePack

Only download-solution for now: Maxthon 3. it has built-in downloader which is stuck just above the videowindow.

... You don't need an extension in NM27 to download that video to disk; it is being served through HTTPS progressive streaming, so you can use the browser's native Web Console (inside Developer Tools) and filter for ".mp4" links while loading the embedded player:

EX09fAC.jpg

The screengrab is from New Moon 27.9.6 32-bit (the SSE2 compile, running on Vista SP2 x86; you should be able to get the video download link on your SSE compile under WinXP, too! ;)).

Edited by VistaLover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LoneCrusader said:

I assume once again that users are intended to believe that "poor modification" is an acceptable definition of "restoring the pre-existing functionality that you intentionally chose to break?"

And it's not just XP/Vista compatibility either. We went through the same thing when MCP yanked out Basilisk's WE APIs, for "security" they said (ironically that's what Mozilla said about the "legacy" APIs too), and more recently their decision to yank out container tabs support since there's one buggy add-on that tries to duplicate that function.

This isn't about "misrepresentation;" that's a red herring. This is about ideology.

I disagree with Mozilla's decision to yank out the "legacy" (XUL/XPCOM/etc.) APIs too; to me, that's exactly the same thing: intentionally making your product less functional just to make it harder on folks running software you don't approve of.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Okay, couple of things..

First and foremost, I am not Moonchild. I am not here to comment on what may or may not be happening in regards to the builds that use Pale Moon or Basilisk code. Binary Outcast != Moonchild Productions.

I represent my self and Binary Outcast. Now, I am here to ask you to keep your dog off my lawn. This is not unreasonable though I sometimes phrase it unreasonably. The fact that you think I need a disclaimer is ridiculous seeing as Mozilla doesn't need a disclaimer about us. They simply tell everyone that they aren't the makers of it and that they should p*** off. They want our dogs to stay off their lawn too. However, I did as suggested and he did as I suggested. Of course that wasn't the end of it it. It had to continue right? So let's continue.

Windows XP and Vista support was dropped from UXP broadly because the code paths and support of them for an 18 year old operating system is NOT reasonable. The Classical Mozilla Codebase is massive with many parts and a good portion is 3rd party libs glued together in a very fragile way. We know how this works through 10 years of experimentation and research. Restoring NT 5x compatibility isn't as simple as reverting a few commits unless you never plan to change any of the rest of the code.

You bring up Basilisk's WebExtensions.. Well the fact is, WebExtension support was NEVER going to advance and it was a huge mistake to leave it in Basilisk in the first place. Once the ESR the WebExtension support was left at all the WebExtensions stopped supporting it and I knew damn well this was going to be the outcome. As for the security argument? Yes, WebExtensions as Mozilla has implemented them are terribly insecure requiring dozens of related security patches every month. You haven't seen them and we have so you cannot attest to it and if you THINK you know anything about it you are just lying your a** off.

Basilisk Tab Containers which was never enabled by default was an unfinished and immature incarnation of the Firefox feature considered experimental at the fork off level. It was never meant to be a feature which is why it wasn't enabled by default or touted as a feature unique to Basilisk and thus was slated for removal the moment we found it as a thing that existed. You act like you understand our collective development decisions but you don't have any clue because you aren't us nor are you involved in it.

 

Back to the area where I have supreme authority, Binary Outcast Projects. Now, what I want above all the bul***** is just to do my projects and not have you guys or your dogs crapping on my lawn. However, if this continues I may have to just shut down my projects and forget doing them at all. I only have 7 months of mandatory support for the email client as per the original terms for funding the Interlink Mail & News project at that time I can shut it down and obliterate it from existence if I so choose. If I do that there will be no more updates for which these builds can utilize. Since, roytam1 or the other guy who I can't be bothered to look up his name don't do true development.. That means the end of the builds here except for they will still do builds but will never advance.

I don't want to do that but I will because my lawn is my f****** lawn. Stay off it and you won't have to worry about me coming here and dumping the refuse I pick up back on yours.

 

As for my wish to have constructive dialog that could still be done but the fact is there is no good medium to do that and here isn't exactly sufficient. It is too bad that these XP projects have no true infra for that to happen. Merely leeching off other people's services.

Edited by Matt A. Tobin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

Okay, couple of things..

First and foremost, I am not Moonchild. I am not here to comment on what may or may not be happening in regards to the builds that use Pale Moon or Basilisk code. Binary Outcast != Moonchild Productions.

I represent my self and Binary Outcast. Now, I am here to ask you to keep your dog off my lawn. This is not unreasonable though I sometimes phrase it unreasonably. The fact that you think I need a disclaimer is ridiculous seeing as Mozilla doesn't need a disclaimer about us. They simply tell everyone that they aren't the makers of it and that they should p*** off. They want our dogs to stay off their lawn too. However, I did as suggested and he did as I suggested. Of course that wasn't the end of it it. It had to continue right? So let's continue.

I think we all understand that you are not Moonchild nor do you speak for MCP in this case. However you get grouped together with MCP here because you have been variously associated with them and apparently share the same condescending attitude toward XP (and Vista) users. This attitude is what turns everyone here off; I mean really, what do "you guys" care what operating system other people choose to use? Don't want to "support" it in your projects? Fine. Just don't break it on purpose, and don't act as if someone is committing a sin by using it on a "unapproved" platform. I fail to understand what bothers you so much about people asking about the XP builds based on this latest statement. Why not just tell them to "p*** off" as you put it and go on about your day?

Now, back to the issue. If you wish to make a "reasonable" request, then do so in a "reasonable" and diplomatic manner. Coming in here and making demands and threats will get you nowhere. I'm willing to accept that your desire to have these "forked projects" disassociated from "Binary Outcast" is a "reasonable" request. However you need to lose the attitude first and foremost, and then make a clear policy on whether or not and how you wish to be credited or mentioned at all in any subsequent "forked" project. You have given conflicting statements on this depending on your attitude whenever you were posting.

Do you want roytam to just change the names, icons and such?
Do you want any stated credit such as "this project is forked from ___ " "created by ____"?
Do you want to be "erased" entirely from the resulting fork?
If roytam does these things you "request," then does that mean you will lose the condescending attitude and derogatory language in reference to these builds here and elsewhere?

1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

Windows XP and Vista support was dropped from UXP broadly because the code paths and support of them for an 18 year old operating system is NOT reasonable. ...

In your opinion; which most everyone here does not share. This is a nonstarter here. It doesn't matter how much "insight" you believe you have into this code; it works on these older platforms and since we have no other options it's a very good option, regardless of your opinion.

1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

Back to the area where I have supreme authority, Binary Outcast Projects. Now, what I want above all the bul***** is just to do my projects and not have you guys or your dogs crapping on my lawn. However, if this continues I may have to just shut down my projects and forget doing them at all. I only have 7 months of mandatory support for the email client as per the original terms for funding the Interlink Mail & News project at that time I can shut it down and obliterate it from existence if I so choose. If I do that there will be no more updates for which these builds can utilize. Since, roytam1 or the other guy who I can't be bothered to look up his name don't do true development.. That means the end of the builds here except for they will still do builds but will never advance.

I don't want to do that but I will because my lawn is my f****** lawn. Stay off it and you won't have to worry about me coming here and dumping the refuse I pick up back on yours.

Addressed most of this above I believe. However, you still seem to think that roytam can somehow exert mind control over those who choose to use his builds and keep them all from "wandering" into the wrong places for support. I'll wager that a good number of these people who are supposedly causing you problems are trolling, especially given your attitude about the builds and since you seem to be very easily triggered by anyone who mentions XP. Since you don't distribute these builds from your site, and most likely one must visit here in the first place in order to get the links for the builds, I find it strange that any serious user doing as such would not "stop here" first for help. They seem to be purposely seeking you out rather than sincerely needing help; and if this is the case, no one here can do anything about that.

1 hour ago, Matt A. Tobin said:

As for my wish to have constructive dialog that could still be done but the fact is there is no good medium to do that and here isn't exactly sufficient. It is too bad that these XP projects have no true infra for that to happen. Merely leeching off other people's services.

What's not "sufficient" here? This forum has been around for a long time and has hosted the support for many projects. I'd rather see a developer dedicated to his or her project rather than dedicated to extraneous "infrastructure." Nothing wrong with having "infrastructure;" mind you, but in the end it is secondary to the project itself. roytam has enough to keep him busy with a $dayjob and building his various browsers, and since he has no help in doing so it's not reasonable to expect him to spend time on a website or otherwise.

  • Like 6
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

These people aren't trolls they are misguided people because they were told at one point that these builds ARE "Pale Moon" but for Windows XP or told "Interlink" but for Windows XP. And it spread. Now it may not have been the original intention of non-english speakers to present it as such and yet it still goes on. This has continued to happen especially at Pale Moon but is also continuing for Interlink and even people for Borealis which btw has STILL not been officially released and yet they are running it on Windows XP.

This confusion exists and it is real and must be acknowledged. My problem has always been that it is bad enough that poor a** linux builders create inferior Pale Moon branded builds which we have to go after and for which we get blamed on for their poor performance and misconfigured builds but we also have to deal with these Windows XP people who can't tell the difference because like it or not it WAS presented as such when you guys first started off. There is proof of that.

What do we want? Exactly what we said.. Complete disassociation. I still think that your projects could fill a need of people even if that need is based on ignorance and misconception of reality but needs never the less but you HAVE to do more than just made some code changes and not use official branding.. The mistakes were already made and you must actively correct it.

I also believe people using development builds as the ONLY source beyond "MyPal" is a terrible idea especially for something like Navigator which is still unfinished.

My biggest problem has been the adhoc nature of this endeavor.. Why not make something more than a blogger blog and a thread on msfn.. Why not create unique product branding and why not learn that some of your collective decisions aren't the best in general let alone to achieve your goal. You want me to see you as more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.. Than BE more than half-assed badly modified XP builds.

I still don't see any improvement on that front and it has been at least two years since this whole mess has started and I have offered to help in that regard and was shot down every time. Still not willing to do the number one thing we collectively asked for for two years.. Create your own branding. Where is it?

So I feel like I have to force the issue with EVERY issue just to get SOMETHING done and that in and of its self p***es me the hell off. If I remove unofficial branding will you then create new branding? Or will you just restore the unofficial branding.. OR WORSE YET will you go back to violating my rights and use whatever branding is left? See, I don't know and in two of those cases which are far more likely based on the past two years the core issue remains.. Which p***es me off that you don't acknowledge: Confusion of users about what exactly they are running..

My second biggest problem will be that little to nothing is done to crush that perception which branding should solve. I don't want to hear that someone is running "Interlink on Windows XP" or "Borealis on Windows XP" because that isn't what they are running.. Not by a long shot. This is a falsehood that is being allowed to continue and as long as it is being allowed to continue I will never hold any of you in anything but abject contempt. And that is where I am on the whole thing. I can't ignore you and it seems I also can't help you. So all I can do is dislike you and try to educate anyone I come across.

Nothing will change until SOMETHING changes. The first true step aside from a single sentence on a web page is BRANDING and BRANDING is the start to your future as something other than what I despise.

As an aside, unique branding won't be very affected if at all by any code changes we do and you can override our default set preferences without there being merge conflicts or worrying about our pref changes if you specify them in branding.. That alone would harden your product choices against our normal development to a degree. That alone should encourage you to make it so.

My next course of action will be determined by your choices.. So what is it to be? You gonna take that first step to being unique and a force unto yourselves or do I keep having to fight you at every turn coming up with more and more ridiculous ways to get something to change out here?

That is about as diplomatic as I get in these cases.

Decide.

Edited by Matt A. Tobin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...