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Windows 10 - Deeper Impressions


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Well, as a newbie to the topic (little experience in PS or CMD), I have a totally different opinion on both.

Personally, I can't stand cmd. Maybe it's ok for typing one command with parameters, but writing anything longer than a line is a massacre. Little functionality, some absurd variable storing and looping, and passing parameters to other command is even worse mess.

Once in an office we needed some simple script, to automatize tasks done with some Windows binaries. It ended up that I've been doing new ones in PS, because no one could have done it in Cmd without way-too-complex workarounds, I also updated others cmd scripts, which sooner or later ended with rewriting them in PS :cool: Needed some filtering? Got it. Needed some more complex string operating? Methods awaiting just by the hand.

Long command names? That's why we have tab-completion and aliases. Besides, they are just based on English words, and the notation is easy to understand. One can get what is going on without knowing the specific command description, in comparison to short and cryptic cmd commands' and binaries' names. Maybe I'd have different opinion if I remembered names of all these cmd utilities, but I guess some of you have more experience with it than I live at all ;) Fact that the whole thing is more like modern programming language is even better for me - its object oriented character is quite natural for me (at least more 'natural' than any other coding approach).

I'm not saying PS is perfect, in fact it's still far from perfect (and, actually, Get-ChildItem is a perfect example of poorly named Cmdlet), it can overwhelm with it's complexity, but has a 'feeling' of something done with a dose of planning, while cmd looks like chaotically glued elements not fitting each other. And PS is really getting more functional with it's every edition, which can't be said about many M$ products right now ;)

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For PowerShell to work, you need a fully functioning system - WMI and .net Framework need to be operational, among other subsystems.

In contrast, CMD(s) can be used when most of Windows is b0rked (and that's when it's needed the most) - ipconfig /all /release /renew for example, or resetting the TCP/IP stack etc. Also try communicating the PS equivalents of these commands (if they exist) over the phone to your aunt. :)


 

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11 hours ago, Tripredacus said:

Let's hope their choice of changing 'cmd' to run Powershell prompt doesn't screw with anyone's scripts or programs that call CMD to perform specific things, such as installing programs. On this new build, is the ComSpec environment variable changed as well?

It might be a nightmare then. For me atleast . Living without cmd? It is as impotant as water for me .

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10 hours ago, Mcinwwl said:

Well, as a newbie to the topic (little experience in PS or CMD), I have a totally different opinion on both.

Personally, I can't stand cmd. Maybe it's ok for typing one command with parameters, but writing anything longer than a line is a massacre. Little functionality, some absurd variable storing and looping, and passing parameters to other command is even worse mess.

Once in an office we needed some simple script, to automatize tasks done with some Windows binaries. It ended up that I've been doing new ones in PS, because no one could have done it in Cmd without way-too-complex workarounds, I also updated others cmd scripts, which sooner or later ended with rewriting them in PS :cool: Needed some filtering? Got it. Needed some more complex string operating? Methods awaiting just by the hand.

Long command names? That's why we have tab-completion and aliases. Besides, they are just based on English words, and the notation is easy to understand. One can get what is going on without knowing the specific command description, in comparison to short and cryptic cmd commands' and binaries' names. Maybe I'd have different opinion if I remembered names of all these cmd utilities, but I guess some of you have more experience with it than I live at all ;) Fact that the whole thing is more like modern programming language is even better for me - its object oriented character is quite natural for me (at least more 'natural' than any other coding approach).

I'm not saying PS is perfect, in fact it's still far from perfect (and, actually, Get-ChildItem is a perfect example of poorly named Cmdlet), it can overwhelm with it's complexity, but has a 'feeling' of something done with a dose of planning, while cmd looks like chaotically glued elements not fitting each other. And PS is really getting more functional with it's every edition, which can't be said about many M$ products right now ;)

The major difference is that PowerShell was designed in the 2000s, it had a longer development time and new libraries to be based on. CMD is the direct successor to DOS and is mostly compatible with its commands, a lot of people are used to it and a lot of programs are written to run in it because it was always there.

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10 hours ago, Mcinwwl said:

Well, as a newbie to the topic (little experience in PS or CMD), I have a totally different opinion on both.

Which is good :), it means you are "modern", once upon a time people used to get to know things before making opinions on them, even wrong ones.

Here are some possibly interesting resources to back up your thesis:

http://reboot.pro/topic/21074-windows-10-is-now-shipping-with-linux-command-line/?p=198581


 

Anyway the issue is only about the actual attempt to "convert" existing usersbase to migration from cmd.exe.

The ps.exe as an option?

Good, lots of people actually deserve that.

The ps.exe forced down everyone's throats?

Advanced users will be able to revert that in no time, the less advanced users will be stuck in there and have all kinds of issues attempting to (wrongly) run cmd.exe commands in the new shell, a perfect way to have BOTH dislike the new shell.

14 hours ago, GrofLuigi said:

I think .bat and .cmd files are safe, they will still be able to be called (invoked) for a long time to come.



 

And, dir is aliased in PowerShell, but its parameters aren't.



 

Yep, and these senseless (partial/wrong) aliases already made their victims, JFYI:
https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell/pull/1901

jaclaz
 

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Powershell command prompt still supports console applications. Any console applications that run in cmd.exe will still run in powershell cmd line. Ipconfig is an external console application so runs exactly the same in a powershell command line as it did in cmd.exe. If you want to switch powershell prompt to a cmd prompt just type cmd.exe /k. Cmd.exe is not being removed from windows 10 just the default is being changed.

Its very easy to switch back to cmd.exe as the default - just go to settings / taskbar.

I think you will find most windows users never use a command prompt. Those that do will easily be able to switch back to the original default if they are not happy with the change.

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On the other hand, Microsoft probably senses that if they don't change the default, they will never get past a certain level of adoption.

I don't know about you, but there have still been things I've been learning about the CMD batch language even to this day.  Time to start over.

-Noel

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Yes. Cmd language is very powerful and has many features that are hard to use. I am a professional software developer and have written many batch files over the years to aid in the software development process. I am slowly switching to powershell. Tasks that required console apps to be written now can be done totally in powershell. The powershell debugger is great and makes powershell script debugging a lot easier than debugging cmd scripts.

If you are writing batch files for windows pe then .cmd / .bat scripts are preferable due to the .net overheads of powershell.

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Introduction/presentation (if needed):

https://m.signalvnoise.com/microsoft-reboots-war-on-sleep-a90da0396fb5

Actual Microsoft (Surface) commercial video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjs2uiKPo2c

Quote of the day:

Spoiler

You don't do 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, for decades if you don't feel it in your heart. 
 

No comment actually needed.

jaclaz
 

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I think the thing that burns my behind more is how they feel they can SAY they're all about work yet engineer their products to move in any direction but.  One can only surmise from all this that the definition of "work" has changed to a kind of a different thing than "real work".

In the new age:

  • "Texting" == "work"
  • "Moving graphics from point A to point B with your finger" == "work"
  • "Distracted ________" == "work"
  • "Researching and buying the next portable electronic device" == "work"
  • "Applying updates to an operating system" == "work"

-Noel

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Noel your roots are showing.

VARX equals "work"   (VARX == "work)  rather than VARX set to "work" (VARX = "work"). :-)

But, I agree with you it does to appear of been redefined while we were not looking.

Now, I may be just old school or anally retentive  but I hate any software that tries to think for me.  You know the type, it says OH, I know what you are doing so here I will help you out (NOT!!!).  Those features have cost me hours of productivity in many of the newer software packages.  Of course, it could also be that I am non-conformist, or the round peg in the square hole.

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>Noel your roots are showing.

Oops, give me Just Five Minutes to fix that...  :)

I know exactly what you mean about software that tries to "think"; Adobe, for example, has added a "butler" to Photoshop CC 2017...  It watches what you do and makes suggestions, all the while contacting psbutler.adobe.com online - presumably letting the mothership know precisely what you're doing with the product.  It can be de-configured (via a checkbox that says "[  ] Show Messages"), but I've caught it re-enabling itself on its own.  I'm sure a feature like this could be good for newbies - it's a complicated as heck product - but I have Photoshop experience dating back to the early 1990s so shutting it off (and having it stay off) my choice.

Lots of "OK Google" ads on TV lately, where the tech is controlling people's surroundings.  Seems wonderful - unless it just fails.  And it does fail.  Rigor hasn't really been part of Google's model, well, ever.  And we've seen Alec Baldwin talking to Amazon's Alexa on TV lately too.

Why is it so hard to completely disable Cortana for those who don't want it (and practically impossible to remove the software entirely)?  Could it be that Microsoft feels Cortana stands to take the most valuable data from those who don't need a digital assistant?  By the way, does Cortana even reliably recognize speech yet?  I haven't tried it for a long time, since it sucked so hard initially.

The tech industry apparently wants us to imagine a Bicentennial Man future, when it looks like the software is all really written to be a Terminator.

-Noel

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