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JorgeA

Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

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The collected wisdoms of sir Matrix... 

 

Stuff like that makes me want to barf.  According to whatever spin doctor wrote that, Windows 9, er, 10 will be more more more! of what was wrong with Windows 8.

 

If all they have left are spin doctors, being paid to think up things like "10" instead of "9", and few actual engineers implementing things people NEED, Microsoft is truly an abysmal mess.

 

Well, that dashed what little hope I had remaining that the Technical Preview could be a little bit interesting.  :(

 

-Noel

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Good or bad is - as always - in the eyes of the beholder.

 

The thing that can be said for sure is that it won't be timely

 

They are talking of talking about it (besides hopefully troubleshooting/debugging/whatever) until end of April 2015 to which it is easy to add 3 to 4 months for putting together and deliver the RTM, then possibly another couple ones for "general availability", i.e. almost one year from now.

 

This would mean almost 3 years, i.e. longer than what they took to create Vista SP3 Windows 7.

 

I guess that everyone that has not yet jumped on the 8/8.1 bandwagon will keep - if at all possible - clinging to their XP or Vista or 7 for one year more (please read as "I predict a very slow increase in 8/8.1 adoption in the next months").

 

jaclaz

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... ( ... "I predict a very slow increase in 8/8.1 adoption in the next months") ...

 

Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 see drop in their market share as Windows 7 continues to gain momentum

 

 

... I guess that everyone that has not yet jumped on the 8/8.1 bandwagon will keep - if at all possible - clinging to their XP or Vista or 7 for one year more ...

 

After unscrewing myself watching that hilarious '10' video I'm more convinced than ever that beyond Se7en I'll stay away from that circus MS has become nowadays .

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@TELVM

 

How queer, there was a recent article on Redmond Magazine had these (triumphant) news:

http://redmondmag.com/articles/2014/09/15/windows-8-surpasses-windows-xp.aspx

 

Windows 8 Surpasses XP User Market Share
By Scott Bekker
09/15/2014

More than four months after Microsoft stopped supporting Windows XP, Windows 8 has finally overtook the unsupported OS, according to Web site analytics firm StatCounter.

 

 

I do understand how this "OS share" numbers can have little variations/fluctuations, but I find surprising that XP is today:

http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-8-and-windows-81-see-drop-their-market-share-windows-7-continues-gain-momentum

 

at 23.87% and that 15 days ago it was only 12.9%:

http://redmondmag.com/articles/2014/09/15/windows-8-surpasses-windows-xp.aspx

 

I guess that based on these data we could publish an article titled :w00t::

XP almost doubles OS share in 15 days

 

 

:lol:

 

jaclaz

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Good or bad is - as always - in the eyes of the beholder.

 

Um, no.  Not only that but... HELL NO!

 

Some things are just bad.  That's precisely my point.  Perception AND performance make up reality (though I would normally list them in the other order).  It's NOT only about perception "in the eyes of the beholder".  When someone allows it to be only about perception then we get...  Windows 8:  No actual substance, no additional actual usefulness (beyond a few bugfixes) beyond Windows 7.  And they couldn't even make the window dressing better - all they could manage were deletions.

 

Clearly even though supposedly a geek has taken the ship's wheel (and I question whether he's really excellence-oriented), a course change will take time.  Microsoft needs to stop this bull$#|+ where they roll out release after release with Marketing names until they get their act together. 

 

NO ONE would fault them for saying, "we're regrouping; it's going to take longer than we thought to release the next version, but when we do watch out!  It's going to be great!".

 

-Noel

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Can you fill me in on the part about leaving (or not leaving) the file system in a stable state? If there's no time to explain, a link or search term will do and I'll take it from there, thanks.

 

--JorgeA

 

 

Sure. 

 

 

That was extremely helpful, thanks! The link you gave did address the subject exactly, as you said. And I even understood everything there! :)

 

Seeing as I'd be installing the Technical Preview on a machine curently running XP, that would seem to meet the requirement that the older OS be installed first, so I should be OK.

 

But I will turn off Hybrid Boot anyway. I suspect this is the reason that so may folks out there think Win8 is so wonderful because it boots so fast. Well yeah, if you put your Vista or Win7 computer to hibernate instead of actually shutting it off, you'd get that effect too. OTOH (and correct me if I'm wrong), hibernation doesn't clean things up internally and, as we know, sometimes it's necessary to do that in order to restore a sluggishly acting machine to full speed. The default Windows 8 shutdown setting prevents that from happening!

 

BTW, did you notice that the images in the TechNet article are from a pre-RTM version of Windows 8 (CP or RP) -- although the window corners are already square, they still feature the 3D window buttons. :)

 

--JorgeA

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Yes, of course I noticed.

 

Microsoft stepped up their process of what I deem "Sheep Herding" with the pre-release versions of Windows 8.  They figured they'd ease into what was quite obviously an uglier desktop theme gradually, to try to wean people off the quite pleasant and integrated desktop experience of Windows 7.

 

The ugly realization is that they've done all this on purpose.  It's so ugly that it makes you want to turn away from it in disbelief.

 

Someone perceptive and intelligent in Marketing (but still evil) quite clearly realized that Metro/Modern didn't hold anything that was worth having that would actually draw people to that side, so they instructed their minions to make the desktop side actively worse to use.  Beyond the overt square, flat, lifeless look, there are subtle things, such as the mouse not *quite* grabbing the edges of windows where it should, or the missing sound effects for some error dialogs, or not allowing Metro/Modern apps to run with UAC disabled, or...  The list goes on of subtle things they've broken on purpose.

 

Remember when "Build a Better Mousetrap and the World Will Beat A Path to Your Door" defined an age where things truly did get better?

 

Someone got the %*$&@ bright idea that they only need to say they have a better mousetrap and people who, out of experience, still believed they would build one would keep beating that path.

 

Fool me once...

 

-Noel

 

 

Edit: typo

Edited by NoelC

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http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,98924.0.html

My favourite Win8 shill posted this on Eham on September 16th.

The comments on his link spoke volumes to me

 

Somehow I'm having trouble seeing where that XP line has fallen below that Win8.1 line.

 

Plus the shills all use adoption numbers to imply "A is better than B".

 

Lots of people get Win 8 (try to buy a computer in a store with anything lower), and they don't think it's better.  Hell, I adopted it myself with my eyes open.  I use it every day and I don't think it's any better than Win 7, and in fact find it worse in some ways -- and I'm adept at reconfiguring it to do precisely what I want/need.  I can only imagine the frustration of someone who's adopted it and doesn't know the literally hundreds of things you have to do to make it worth using.

 

-Noel

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Microsoft christens the next version of Windows as Windows 10

 

There is something potentially problematic in this explanation for the "10" labeling rather than "9":

 

But Microsoft went instead with Windows 10 because they wanted to signify that the coming Windows release would be the last "major" Windows update. Going forward, Microsoft is planning to make regular, smaller updates to the Windows 10 codebase, rather than pushing out new major updates years apart.

 

Anybody else think that problems could (needlessly) arise from this attempt to put everyone on the same "version" of Windows?

 

There are many programs (and indeed OSes ;) ) that I decline to use because the new "improved" version actually works worse, or had features taken out, or has features I don't want, or is plain butt-ugly. Depending on how tolerant Microsoft is of such dissidents, then under the new system either (1) I would have to conform along with everybody else and do without the removed functionality, or (2) if I could refuse to install the "updates" then my numberless version of Windows would have a different feature set than other people's numberless versions of Windows, and possibly leading to massive confusion when trying to troubleshoot a problem or discuss an OS issue. Today we can speak of Windows 7 or 8, and the listener knows more or less what he's dealing with. But if specific OS designations are abandoned, then during such a discussion we can't be sure that we're talking about the same thing.

 

I suppose we might be able to rely on the version number (6.x.yyy.zzz), but that would introduce a cumbersome additional step into the discussion. And I'm not sure what it would help, anyway -- maybe you installed a June update but not the April one, for example.

 

What do you think?

 

--JorgeA

 

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Seems to me a constantly updating operating system will be an operating system with a new incompatibility or failure each day.

 

It's just more BS by marketing types who don't have a clue that stability matters.  Stability in both feature set and reliability.

 

Then there's the implicit problem with "trust us to make your system better and better, we will always have your best interests at heart".

 

And we thought high tech life was fun and exciting before.

 

-Noel

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But Microsoft went instead with Windows 10 because they wanted to signify that the coming Windows release would be the last "major" Windows update. Going forward, Microsoft is planning to make regular, smaller updates to the Windows 10 codebase, rather than pushing out new major updates years apart.

 

Anybody else think that problems could (needlessly) arise from this attempt to put everyone on the same "version" of Windows?

 

...

 

I suppose we might be able to rely on the version number (6.x.yyy.zzz), but that would introduce a cumbersome additional step into the discussion. And I'm not sure what it would help, anyway -- maybe you installed a June update but not the April one, for example.

 

 

Don' t tell the MS marketing guys, but IMNSHO this (continuously updating a codebase) is what the engineers have done since 2006 (actually before since 2000).

 

In their own definition, there is a major and minor version of the OS.

 

NT 4.00 was 4

Windows 2000 was 5.0

Windows XP was 5.1

Server 2003 was 5.2 (and also XP 64 bit, which is actually a dumbed down version of Server 2003)

 

Those were the early "version 5" operating systems.

 

Vista was 6.0

7 was 6.1

8 was 6.2

8.1 is 6.3

 

These are the current "version 6" operating systems.

 

jaclaz

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A few things I found, to lighten the mood.

Why did they skip to Windows 10? Because 7 8 9.

Obviously. But then there's the Windows OS vs Star Trek movie rating trend.

I’m kind of optimistic, Windows always had a pattern to their OS releases.

Windows XP – Good

Windows Vista – Crap

Windows 7 – Good

Windows 8 – Crap

Windows 10 – Good?

But as pointed out, if this trend were to continue, Windows 10 is going to be "crap" as the "good" Windows 9 was shelved. Lastly, large image in a spoiler...

466.jpg

source: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/windows

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Regarding the the no major versions thing... wasn't the grand vision two years ago that metro will rule them all? How did that play out?

 

What some sycophants and overpaid MS execs want and get are two entirely different things. The main problem with "no major versions" is that Windows will appear stagnant. Even (semi-)embedded OSes like Android, ios and MacOS introduce new versions with great fanfare to crank up sales for the next line of hardware. Windows 10 for the next ten years or more on the other hand doesn't sound so sexy. New Windows versions stirr also the media up, that publicity would be gone. I also bet that Microsoft's OEMs will be pretty pissed off at the prospect to be condemnend to sale their hardware with a versionless Windows.

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First impressions of Windows 6.4.9841 Enterprise Technical Preview

 

I installed the Win 10 x64 Enterprise Technical Preview in a VM... I think of it as "TP", and my point is to try to see how well it can work for traditional desktop use.  I'm not even going to run a single Metro/Modern app.

 

Installation went smoothly and quickly, and I was able to create a local account by taking the same almost-hidden-in-plain-sight links as with a Win 8 install.

 

So far, interacting with the desktop, Windows 10 looks like more of the same - a point release taken further, if you can imagine, in the direction of what's wrong with Windows 8 (and Office 2013), and with little substance amongst window dressing changes.  Looking back at Windows 8, it's clear in hindsight Microsoft made the UI during all the Previews EXACTLY the way they did on purpose, to try to wean us off nice, comfortable desktop styles and onto a Metro/Modern look.  This feels like more of that.

 

I've got to say, the UI style (if you can call lack of style a style) at first blush is so UNintegrated that it really seems developed by amateurs.  The word "polished" doesn't come to mind, nosiree.  It's all about flat, even more lifeless user elements.  It's brand new, so we don't have things like Aero Glass or UXStyle yet, and it's clear it's going to NEED them to help us avoid a gag response... 

 

Now desktop windows are nearly borderless, so even uglier than Win 8 if you can imagine - reminiscent of Office 2013.  The place you have to grab the edge of a window to resize it is quite a few pixels outside the visible edge of the client area.  And it's got this really big but not quite dark enough drop shadow going on under windows now.  Maybe the intent is to make pop ups look like OSX, I don't know.  The drop shadow is a *tiny* step of UI style in the right direction, amongst almost everything else backsliding, but it's not consistently there (for example, the Start menu doesn't emit a shadow), and it's not the same depth as the shadow that appears behind the text (but not graphic parts) of desktop icons.  I'm not sure it's additive either when there are multiple windows overlapping.  It comes off as unintegrated, but it IS a welcome change.

 

Yep, it has a Start Menu, and it's not bad at providing a Search Box to type commands into.  Example - "Click Start, type regedit, press Enter".  It's possible to unpin all the Metro/Modern apps from it.  I left one - the Windows Feedback app - which is just a web page.

 

I normally like to keep my Taskbar hidden, and lo and behold it won't come out if I drag my mouse up to where the Start button will appear.  The whole left end of the Taskbar is dead for that; I have to move the mouse to the right of the Start graphic, "Search", and "TaskView" icons (that cannot be unpinned, by the way) to get it to come out.  Thus Auto-Hide is useless.  Hovering over things on the Taskbar invokes a little "light" below the icons that's reminiscent of an OSX dock.  And what's up with IE pinning itself back to the Taskbar even though I unpinned it (several times now)?  Haven't Microsoft been dinged enough about pushing IE on people.  Europe is going to love taking them to task over this.  With regard to the taskbar, I'm not sensing much in the way of "have it my way".

 

Some icons are reworked and some are not.  So we have a new non-3D "This PC" icon for the desktop, but the recycle bin is the same as it was.  Microsoft couldn't finish the update of all the icon graphics before release?  Maybe they couldn't think of a stylized Recycle Bin graphic that represented its function any better than a little trash can.  If "hodgepodge" could be called a style, that's the look Microsoft's going for here.

 

It's IE11 - not IE12.  Seems about the same, and thankfully I can configure it just as on Win 8 to open new Windows (not new tabs) when I want a another session.

 

The CMD window has a few new features, labeled "Experimental".  For example, it has the ability to be made partially transparent.

 

I've installed exactly two Windows Updates that were already pending.  I have installed NO applications.  An SFC /VERIFYONLY command already fails.  This might be excusable in an alpha version but Microsoft is pushing us toward accepting streaming updates virtually constantly.  Doesn't the update process actually have to WORK right to do that?

 

More as I learn it.  If you've not got your own copy running yet, let me know what you'd like me to check and I'll take a look if I can find time.

 

-Noel

 

 

Win10FirstImpressionsScreenGrab.png

Edited by NoelC

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