roytam1 Posted January 18 Author Share Posted January 18 (edited) 2 hours ago, VistaLover said: In any case, martok has now prepared UXP#2459 and MC is probably OK to merge it, so all this discussion will become moot. I didn't wait for their side's action and I decided to import them for testing now (with another PR) and it seems that it won't crash anymore even if my workaround is reverted. Edited January 18 by roytam1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotHereToPlayGames Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 7 hours ago, VistaLover said: that's just typical ol' Moonchild there , not surprised or impressed... Technically, if we are truly honest here, one of MC's comments is dead-on accurate, whether we like to "admit" it or not. The builds/forks here can and do crash/corrupt at any time. Some have taken MONTHS to discover and isolate, these are RARE but they DO exist. We have all seen them, reports of "last known working version" and we have to go back MONTHS. There is no such thing as a "stable branch" of these builds/forks. We are guinea pigs, whether we want to be or not, whether we think we are or not. We are beta testers, whether we want to be or not, whether we think we are or not. However, what MC fails to see, in my humble opinion, is that we all feel "a part of something" here at MSFN. We cite these findings and discuss them as a community and the developer interacts with those of us that are "a part of something" and fixes are rolled out. How is that any different than Official Pale Moon development channels? Don't they also do the same? But, I submit, to a larger scale (we here at MSFN often thinks we are much larger than we actually are - but that can be our Pro or our Con, arguments exist on "both sides"). Long Live MSFN. Long Live "Browsers working on Older NT-Family OSes". 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotHereToPlayGames Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 8 hours ago, VistaLover said: this view is, actually, shared/recognised by @dbsoft in this post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotHereToPlayGames Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 8 hours ago, VistaLover said: I, personally, don't mind being "a guinea pig" ; no-one forces me to update every single weekend (I usually just update once a month or when important webcompat fixes arrive), and before ever updating I'm the same way. Technically, I only use the St52 browser of this thread, but I have a long history with NM27 and NM28 and revisit them every once in a while just to witness "progress" with them. The St52 that I use (daily, btw, I don't own a mobile phone and St52 is my texting/emailing/voicemailing browser, but it's not my "web browser" for actual web-browsing) is 2023-07-31. Though I do get the feeling (can't prove it) that we are the MINORITY in this regard. I have always felt that most here update EVERY WEEKEND - but we need them, they're the one's finding any issues and just where would we (and some times even Official Pale Moon!) "be without them"? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roytam1 Posted January 18 Author Share Posted January 18 15 hours ago, VistaLover said: We now have @basilisk-dev gracing us with his presence here maybe checking out his latest reply there? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPerceniol Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 14 hours ago, roytam1 said: legal action is still ongoing. https://hongkongfp.com/2024/01/01/explainer-hong-kongs-national-security-crackdown-month-42/#h-glory-to-hong-kong-appeal I think situation is becoming worse slowly, and article 23 is yet to come(soon). Well I hope things work out for the better and not the worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroSkipper Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) Quote Yeah, New Moon is like a cheap Chinese knockoff of Pale Moon... LOL. But yeah, the MSFN-type people are basically the reason why Pale Moon temporarily closed the git repos and started just publishing tarballs for that brief period. It is a little infuriating to watch people misuse your code and then blame you for it. That's a typical comment from the guys on the Pale Moon forum. Exactly as I put it here: On 1/17/2024 at 2:40 PM, AstroSkipper said: I can literally feel and read the hostility, arrogance and aversion there. There is a lack of friendliness and respect in this forum. That's why I haven't posted there for a long time. And then the try to row back a little patronisingly: Quote Though we've learned that we can't let our anger at that make us give up the benefits of open and collaborative development. The quoted comment can be found here: https://forum.palemoon.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=17830&sid=c270026a4e9bbd9b3587497dfcb6127a https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=247714#p247714 What do we learn from such behaviour? One should only post in the Pale Moon forum about the official Pale Moon and Basilisk browsers and only if absolutely necessary. These poor, lost souls there can't cope with anything else. Edited January 19 by AstroSkipper correction 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VistaLover Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 7 hours ago, roytam1 said: maybe checking out his latest reply there? ... ... Well, when basilisk-dev first went "public" here, he outlined his "intentions" in a crystal-clear fashion that I immediately understood and respected ever since; to summarise, off-the-top-of-my-head: 1. He is NOT inclined to support any other Windows OS beyond what the official UXP platform supports (currently, Win7SP1 and up; though, if I were to rekindle past debates, MCP had declined back then to extend UXP support to Vista (NT 6.x family) because the vendor (Microsoft) had, at the time, just ended Extended Support for it ; where does Win7 stand now?) ... 2. His support is ONLY limited to the official (stable) Basilisk binaries he himself compiles and publishes. 3. The main - but NOT exclusive - channel to reach out to him for support, with 1+2 above still being honoured, would be the PMForums dedicated Basilisk subforum . To the best of my knowledge, I have never gone against his wishes, so whatever "infuriation'/bitterness he tried to vent "there" doesn't touch me in the slightest... Additionally, Quote Then they'll tag me saying "Hey there's a bug" even though I already told them that the code they are using is not production ready. 1. Whether basilik-dev doesn't want to be forewarned about potential bugs in the platform (UXP) his own application builds upon is his own prerogative (though slightly unfortunate, if my personal opinion was queried) ; it's basically the platform's master branch that we, fork users, get first to be exposed to; I think there's a misinterpretation of incentives plaguing the MCP camp: since when is "potential" bug reporting equal to "blaming us for them (the bugs)" ? My impression still is that any bug reporting (on any project) isn't meant as an accusation, rather as an attempt for betterment - I do file many bug reports on many open-source projects, when I sometimes happen to be in error (yes, I do ), the project's maintainer just labels my bug report as invalid (and usually explains why that is so), but never jumps onto accusations/name calling against me... 2. The "tagging" basilisk-dev part: Well, I did recently tag him myself, but it was only after a bug initially discovered in Serpent 52 was found to be reproducible in the latest official Basilisk binary, run on a sanctioned OS: On 1/14/2024 at 3:28 AM, mina7601 said: Now, to answer your question: yes, I am able to reproduce this issue, even in the official clients you mentioned, Basilisk 52.9.2023.12.09 and PM 32.5.2, at least under Windows 7 SP1 64-bit. I was hoping an acknowledgement of this bug (the "dropbox" one) would come from basilisk-dev that would have put things in motion towards its hopeful resolution by "upstream", but so far nothing of this sort has happened; was I in error to "tag" him about it (since the bug is present, too, in his own binaries)? I honestly don't think so... Quote Part of me has considered not pushing code to the master branch of Basilisk until the day I do a new release to avoid exactly this issue. 3. ... As things stand, and that's already common knowledge to members here that read Roy Tam's weekly "release notes/changelogs", basilisk-specific code from here is only sparingly+selectively copied over to Roy's UXP-custom-branch; in fact, more often than not, his changelogs state: On 1/13/2024 at 1:29 AM, roytam1 said: No official Basilisk changes picked since my last build. So I don't really see what that "Basilisk master branch" argument was about ; and, honestly, were you really "flooded" with unjustified reports about official Basilisk from St52 users, as hinted? Or was it, like, once or twice by some misguided St52 users who ought to have posted here but didn't even bother to search for "here" at all? In conclusion: I don't think I, personally, owe some form of apology to basilisk-dev for any wrong-doing; his post in the PMForums thread I'll describe as mostly emotionally-charged and/or somewhat biased ... Disclaimer: My views here reflect only me, personally, not MSFN as a whole or Roy Tam in particular... Kindest regards, a "happy" alpha-tester ... Edited January 19 by VistaLover better English :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VistaLover Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 6 hours ago, AstroSkipper said: That's a typical comment from the guys on the Pale Moon forum. I won't even bother falling into that "trap" and start commenting on it ; "The MSFN-type people" ? WT...? My little faith towards reconciliation has just evaporated ; back to your positions, "MSFN-type people", we're again back to "square one", otherwise put: The old SNAFU... A great pity, though ... 6 hours ago, AstroSkipper said: That's why I haven't posted there for a long time. If inactive for a large amount of time, your PMForums account will be, eventually, purged, but I don't think you'll lose any sleep over that, will you? ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroSkipper Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 38 minutes ago, VistaLover said: I won't even bother falling into that "trap" and start commenting on it ; "The MSFN-type people" ? WT...? My fingers were already itching , but I'm not posting in this rubbish forum any more. 38 minutes ago, VistaLover said: If inactive for a large amount of time, your PMForums account will be, eventually, purged, but I don't think you'll lose any sleep over that, will you? ... Yep! The guys can purge it, delete it or stick it somewhere else. I will be sleeping like a log. Edited January 19 by AstroSkipper 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VistaLover Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 hours ago, AstroSkipper said: The quoted comment can be found here: https://forum.palemoon.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=17830&sid=c270026a4e9bbd9b3587497dfcb6127a Something wrong there in your URI pasting ; for those that do want to read that patronising post, the link is: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=247714#p247714 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroSkipper Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 6 minutes ago, VistaLover said: Something wrong there in your URI pasting ; for those that do want to read that patronising post, the link is: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?p=247714#p247714 Yep! I have no idea what I did there. Thanks for correcting! Edited January 19 by AstroSkipper 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VistaLover Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) On 1/18/2024 at 2:37 AM, VistaLover said: mind you, MC had himself abolished PM's unstable branch/releases some years ago, because very little of his target audience actually used them and reported existing bugs Raise your hand anyone if you think below announcement is just a coincidence : https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30782 Quote I decided to toss a public beta out to all for v33.0, since so much has changed and we're a bit short on testing. I mainly want to catch any real showstopper bugs by having somewhat broader testing than usual. (I mean, do you see the "double standard" there? When he was referring to the users of "the forks" as "beta testers", his tone implied a negative connotation for the term; now, he's in need himself of "beta testers" for his own "official" browser, in which case those "testers" are a "good thing", of course ) ... Edited January 19 by VistaLover 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mina7601 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, VistaLover said: it was only after a bug initially discovered in Serpent 52 was found to be reproducible in the latest official Basilisk binary, run on a sanctioned OS: I was hoping an acknowledgement of this bug (the "dropbox" one) would come from basilisk-dev that would have put things in motion towards its hopeful resolution by "upstream", but so far nothing of this sort has happened I too am surprised to see that nothing is done so far to that bug. Edited January 19 by mina7601 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroSkipper Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 minutes ago, VistaLover said: On 1/18/2024 at 1:37 AM, VistaLover said: mind you, MC had himself abolished PM's unstable branch/releases some years ago, because very little of his target audience actually used them and reported existing bugs Raise your hand anyone if you think below announcement is just a coincidence : https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30782 Quote I decided to toss a public beta out to all for v33.0, since so much has changed and we're a bit short on testing. I mainly want to catch any real showstopper bugs by having somewhat broader testing than usual. ... My hand stays down. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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