VistaLover Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, NotHereToPlayGames said: There is no header that the client-end tells the server-end how many processors the client has. There is no "serve this version" for single-process, "serve that version" for multi-process. While your technical analysis is correct , what "I" think was meant by Milkinis was: Website authors of this era target/expect their sites to be opened by a browser based on a "recent" (or even the latest) version of the Chromium engine (I'll throw recent/latest Firefox into this mix), which is "multiprocesses-capable" and has multiprocess turned ON by default; it's even more "effective" in Chromium, as there's a separate process for each tab (by default) ... Website authors of this era are also "lazy" and would not design a page from scratch, instead they use pre-made templates and frameworks/webpacks, that also target a "recent" (or even the latest) version of the Chromium engine ; website authors of "today" don't particularly care about backwards-compatibility with older browser engines, especially since, some years ago, Internet Explorer 11 was thrown out of the picture (in favour of yet another Chrome clone , [Chr]Edge); and I'm sure we'll both agree that Pale Moon and the rest of the UXP-based browsers (even more "marginal" than PM itself) are well outside their "radars" ... In the comfort/knowledge a recent Chromium engine (especially on recent H/W) will be able to handle whatever one throws at it (and, even more importantly, will not alert the user if it struggles to render said webpage), these website authors will throw in "metric tons" of Javascript/CSS code, still and moving graphics galore, etc., bloating it considerably, succumbing to the recent web-design "trends" that are "supposed" to attract more viewers/"clickers" ... Invariably, these "over-bloated" websites are expected to lag considerably on the likes of Pale Moon and its "cousins", due to them being designed as single-process and having inherited several unresolved bugs (which have been discussed on and off in the relevant threads) from their initial fork-point of Mozilla ESR 52.6, that Mozilla left to bit-rot, as "they" had moved on to a different engine with Quantum onwards... In closing, I think this was the gist of: 13 hours ago, Milkinis said: if the website was developed for multi processes capable browsers then the Pale Moon crap will struggle with these kind of sites Regards ... Edited August 3, 2023 by VistaLover
Milkinis Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 38 minutes ago, VistaLover said: I'm sure we'll both agree that Pale Moon and the rest of the UXP-based browsers (even more "marginal" than PM itself) are well outside their "radars" ... how do these obsolete browsers (I don't think they represent more than 1% of global marketshare) make a profit ? google search engine ?
VistaLover Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Milkinis said: how do these obsolete browsers ... You're just being biased there, like the uninformed masses ; they're not "obsolete" just because they're not based on a Chromium-type web engine... These browsers are a) still in demand (obviously "meager" ) b) still in use by those that use them c) still being maintained actively, thus I'd call them non-mainstream myself... 47 minutes ago, Milkinis said: make a profit The UXP application platform and the browsers built on it are open-source and freeware; as for the funding sources of Moonchild Productions, the main "entity" behind Pale Moon and its development, these are also public knowledge and easily searchable/find-able ; Partnership with Start.me, the default new tab page in PM, partnership with duckduckgo, the default search engine in PM, private donations by members of the PM community, as the first two income sources are not enough to cover infrastructure costs (server maintenance costs for various services related to PM, e.g. main website, forum website, extensions' website, internal update server, binary hosting services, etc.) ... For more detail, visit: https://www.palemoon.org/donations.shtml 47 minutes ago, Milkinis said: google search engine ? ("inside" joke easily understood by the UXP/Pale Moon communities) ... Kind regards Edited August 3, 2023 by VistaLover
UCyborg Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 IE11 is multi-process and slow (for those that apparently never used it). At least in JavaScript. Multi-process is a hoax IMO, another bad Googleism. Sorry, nobody will convince me I need this multi-process nonsense to display a bunch of images, text, dynamic elements, voice-chat etc. while a competent (single-process!) game engine will proces inputs of dozens of players, render the world in player's sight while animating all natural occurrences (river flowing, trees rustling), dynamic shadow casting, sun flares...while players are shooting each other on foot, in tanks, jeeps, airplanes, explosions going off, buildings being torn apart... All at buttery-smooth frame-rate. Surely network conditions are always less than ideal with latencies considerably higher than the time it will take the engine to run through the game loop to produce a single frame, but that's AFAIK compensated by client-side interpolation and action prediction. Why do I need multi-process Skype/Teams and other such poop again? Web has become such an ugly monstrosity that I think people responsible deserve nothing less than being packed in a rocket with the course set straight to the Sun. 2
NotHereToPlayGames Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 If I recall correctly, the only reason we even have multi-process is because of Spectre and Meltdown.
VistaLover Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 14 minutes ago, UCyborg said: Multi-process is a hoax IMO, another bad Googleism. (redacted for brevity) Web has become such an ugly monstrosity that I think people responsible deserve nothing less than being packed in a rocket with the course set straight to the Sun. +1000 ; and those "people responsible" (read Google) are currently in the process of making it (Web) even an uglier "monster" : https://msfn.org/board/topic/184944-could-web-enviornment-integrity-block-old-operating-systems 2
UCyborg Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) Chrome was multi-process way before anyone knew about those exploits. Maybe multi-process is not the main issue, hard to tell, each camp will defend their own. But megabytes of JavaScript for relatively simple tasks, c'mon... Edit: Look at this, IE8 is multi-process? I only launched IE8 accidentally few times in recent years on XP, but wasn't checking Process Hacker. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/628744/chrome-ie8-multi-process-design-is-it-possible-in-net Edited August 3, 2023 by UCyborg 1
UCyborg Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 @VistaLover Google is heavily entrenched into all pours (or whatever is the right term) of digital life, something radical would have to happen for that to turn around. It goes beyond the web and smart phones. My new car has portions of Google's software on-board, but besides few bells and whistles, it's as manual as one could get in 2022. 1
NotHereToPlayGames Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 26 minutes ago, UCyborg said: But megabytes of JavaScript for relatively simple tasks, c'mon... "Ay, there's the rub." Look at this very MSFN page. Take your shoes off and borrow the hands and feet of another person, you'll need that many "digits" to count how many scripts exist for even this page! 1
UCyborg Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) Aye, guess that's what you get with more premium forum software. At least Invision strikes me as more premium. On the other hand, are spoiler tags a thing here? Spoiler test Did it work? Ha, I don't remember this working in the past. Must have been a good update. Or my memory playing tricks again. Either way, I'm done complaining for today. Honestly, I'm too good at complaining while I suck pretty much everywhere else...oh well... Edited August 3, 2023 by UCyborg 2
NotHereToPlayGames Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) Googletagmanager is obviously blocked, surprised I haven't been blocking cdnjs.cloudflare. Correction - I am blocking cloudflare but via uMatrix so that's why Proxomitron's log still shows it. I'm showing 1,860,754 bytes of javascript for the web page we are reading right now. 1.86 megabytes. Could be worse, I don't have Facebook or I'd see how many of megabytes we have there. Edited August 3, 2023 by NotHereToPlayGames 1
UCyborg Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 The code be everywhere these days, eg. did anyone see what kind of headphones they sell these days? Gone are the days when headphones were a pair of dumb speakers you put on your head. Now they have Bluetooth, built-in equalizers, smartphone app to control them, Google Assistant etc. and apparently they may even get software updates. Or a car battery charger that is configurable via app. Have they invented a smart toilet yet? 2
VistaLover Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 3 minutes ago, UCyborg said: Have they invented a smart toilet yet? ... You'd be surprised (I wasn't ): https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Toilets/s?k=Smart+Toilets 3
UCyborg Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 2 hours ago, Milkinis said: how do these obsolete browsers 1 hour ago, VistaLover said: These browsers are a) still in demand (obviously "meager" ) b) still in use by those that use them c) still being maintained actively, thus I'd call them non-mainstream myself... And certain folks using roytam1's releases could say: "What do you mean "obsolete browser"!? I just updated it last Saturday!" 4
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