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Windows XP and SATA hard drives with 4k sector size


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Posted

I remember maybe 10 years ago when there was talk of hard drives moving to 4k sector size (from 512 byte sector size) if that was going to be a problem for the older windows versions.

I'm just wondering if the problems I'm seeing today with some Patriot P210 128 gb SSD's could be because they have 4k sectors and it's a complete fluke that these are the first drives I've ever putzed with on win-XP systems to have 4k sectors.  I have plenty of SSD's and HDD's that are about 5 years old (128 gb SDD's and 1TB HDD's, all sata, all used in IDE mode) that I've been able to use under Win-XP (and Win-NT4 and Win-98) and have never even thought about the 4k sector issue before.

 

 


Posted (edited)
On 1/19/2025 at 6:27 PM, Nomen said:

I remember maybe 10 years ago when there was talk of hard drives moving to 4k sector size (from 512 byte sector size) if that was going to be a problem for the older windows versions.

Actually it was 15 years ago. It is a minor problem for windows XP cause by default XP will format with cluster size of 512 bytes, and also not aligned to disk 4K advanced format sectors because:

Quote

Windows XP and other older OSes work by accessing specific disk sectors, not by using 'atomic writes' that work on byte-level data placements that we see in Windows Vista, 7, Server 2008, MacOS 10.4, 10.5 and 10.6 (Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard) and recent Linux kernels from 2.6.31 onwards.

Windows XP (and Windows 2000 and Server 2003) use a method of accessing the hard disk that starts at sector 63. Because 4KB sectors match eight 512B sectors, sector 63 is unfortunately is one sector shy of being directly compatible, so using a 4KB data sector with these OSes causes mis-aligned writes.

HDD will suffer speed penalty from wrong cluster size and misalignment much more then SSD. But if your HDD and SSD correctly formatted with 4K cluster and aligned correctly - there will be normal fast work with winXP. I use with winXP both HDD and SSD that are 4K Advanced Format devices - i create partitions on them using program mentioned below - program that works under windows XP and give ability, when formatting disk\partition to set 4K cluster size and correct alignment.

There is a method to format disk in 4K with command prompt in winXP, but i never used it and instead use 2 programs to check alignment and format in 4K with correct alignment.

The first program is MiniTool Partition Wizard Server Edition 7.8, - it can format drive correctly with 4K size of cluster and set correct alignment, and also can aligned correctly already existing partition. If you want this program in Server Edition write me Personal Message i will give you a link. The Home Edition is free and can be downloaded via wayback machine - http://web.archive.org/web/20140904082151/https://www.partitionwizard.com/download/pwhe7.exe

The second program is Disk Alignment Test - very simple program, it just checks are your partitions and disks correctly aligned. It is free and you can download it via wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20160221100017/http://diskat.net/

Edited by Rod Steel
Posted (edited)
On 1/20/2025 at 11:29 PM, Rod Steel said:

Actually it was 15 years ago. It is a minor problem for windows XP cause by default XP will format with cluster size of 512 bytes, and also not aligned to disk 4K advanced format sectors because:

HDD will suffer speed penalty from wrong cluster size and misalignment much more then SSD. But if your HDD and SSD correctly formatted with 4K cluster and aligned correctly - there will be normal fast work with winXP. I use with winXP both HDD and SSD that are 4K Advanced Format devices - i create partitions on them using program mentioned below - program that works under windows XP and give ability, when formatting disk\partition to set 4K cluster size and correct alignment.

There is a method to format disk in 4K with command prompt in winXP, but i never used it and instead use 2 programs to check alignment and format in 4K with correct alignment.

The first program is MiniTool Partition Wizard Server Edition 7.8, - it can format drive correctly with 4K size of cluster and set correct alignment, and also can aligned correctly already existing partition. If you want this program in Server Edition write me Personal Message i will give you a link. The Home Edition is free and can be downloaded via wayback machine - http://web.archive.org/web/20140904082151/https://www.partitionwizard.com/download/pwhe7.exe

The second program is Disk Alignment Test - very simple program, it just checks are your partitions and disks correctly aligned. It is free and you can download it via wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20160221100017/http://diskat.net/

I just downloaded and ran both programs mentioned above (on a win-7 system with 240 gb Kingston SSD).  The Disk Alignment Test said that the C volume (the only volume) IS NOT aligned.  The Minitool says the disk has 512 byte sector size and 8 sectors per cluster.  Does this program test for alignment or display alignment status?  I'm a bit confused about this - if a drive has 512 byte sector size, regardless if it's a HDD or SSD, is there any potential for mis-alignment?  Does mis-alignment only happen when the sector-size is 4k and NOT 512 bytes?

Also - XP (and NT4 and Win-2k) will create NTFS volumes of 4kb cluster size, that is the default cluster size.  At least that is what I have always believed and has been my observation.

Edited by Nomen
Posted
7 hours ago, Nomen said:

The Disk Alignment Test said that the C volume (the only volume) IS NOT aligned. 

Then you should aligned it using this function in MiniTool Partition Wizard. Click in Minitool with right mouse button on your 240 SSD, press "Align" (sorry my Minitool use not English interface, so i don't know how exactly this options called in English version) and then press in left upper corner of program button "Apply". Also pay attention of info and warnings that program give to you (i mean read it with attention).

7 hours ago, Nomen said:

The Minitool says the disk has 512 byte sector size and 8 sectors per cluster.

It means that Cluster is 4K, it's just not aligned. In my case it's also 8 sectors per cluster, just my partitions are aligned.

7 hours ago, Nomen said:

Does this program test for alignment or display alignment status?

I guess it's do both.:} What a weird question.

7 hours ago, Nomen said:

Does mis-alignment only happen when the sector-size is 4k and NOT 512 bytes?

In Windows misalignment happens when you format drive with old windows before Vista. Your cluster is 4K, just it's start in wrong place - meaning program cluster of file system are not Coincides with physical cluster on HDD\SSD.

Posted (edited)

How does MiniTool Partition Wizard report PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE of the disk?  Where do I see that in MiniTool Partition Wizard?

 

How is it possible for a hard drive to be mis-aligned if the PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE is 512 bytes?

Or do all hard drives today (both HDD and SSD) lie and report PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE to be 512 bytes when actually they are 4kb?

Does the concept of alignment really matter for a SSD today?

Edit:  In the Minitool Partition Wizard, if I select "Align Partition" in the left-hand column option list, a window opens that says "The specified partition does not need to change partitions alignment.  It is already aligned."

The disk alignment test (diskat-gui.exe) still says "Wrong alignment detected.  Volume C is not aligned".

Edited by Nomen
Posted (edited)
On 1/21/2025 at 5:29 AM, Rod Steel said:

Actually it was 15 years ago. It is a minor problem for windows XP cause by default XP will format with cluster size of 512 bytes, and also not aligned to disk 4K advanced format sectors because:

HDD will suffer speed penalty from wrong cluster size and misalignment much more then SSD. But if your HDD and SSD correctly formatted with 4K cluster and aligned correctly - there will be normal fast work with winXP. I use with winXP both HDD and SSD that are 4K Advanced Format devices - i create partitions on them using program mentioned below - program that works under windows XP and give ability, when formatting disk\partition to set 4K cluster size and correct alignment.

There is a method to format disk in 4K with command prompt in winXP, but i never used it and instead use 2 programs to check alignment and format in 4K with correct alignment.

The first program is MiniTool Partition Wizard Server Edition 7.8, - it can format drive correctly with 4K size of cluster and set correct alignment, and also can aligned correctly already existing partition. If you want this program in Server Edition write me Personal Message i will give you a link. The Home Edition is free and can be downloaded via wayback machine - http://web.archive.org/web/20140904082151/https://www.partitionwizard.com/download/pwhe7.exe

The second program is Disk Alignment Test - very simple program, it just checks are your partitions and disks correctly aligned. It is free and you can download it via wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20160221100017/http://diskat.net/

After many years using MiniTool Partition Wizard, I recommend not using it.
The program does not align the partitions when creating them, so when you press the align button, what it does is redesign the partitions, leaving gaps between them.
On the other hand, I will comment that versions 11 and 12 (latest XP) do not work well and can cause data corruption.

I recommend using Eassos DiskGenius.
The last one I have tried is 5.5.0.1488 from 2023 and it works well with MBR on Windows XP.
I use quite a few Seagate +2TiB disks with physical sector 4096 and the program reports it.
Eassos DiskGenius allows you to choose the alignment when creating the partitions. You can choose 2048 or any other. I wonder what the problem is with choosing the 256 alignment. It doesn't seem to cause any problems with Windows XP's disk manager, unlike 2048.
Always allow time for operations to finish in Eassos DiskGenius, it's not clear when they finish. Same when starting the program, wait for it to start properly before touching anything.
The program also allows you to make a copy of the partition table to restore in case of failure.

Edited by Cixert
Posted

These questions still remain:

How is it possible for a hard drive to be mis-aligned if the PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE is 512 bytes?

Or do all hard drives today (both HDD and SSD) lie and report PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE to be 512 bytes when actually they are 4kb?

Does the concept of alignment really matter for a SSD today?

Posted

one way would be

that instead the counter 

4096 sector size

is not repeated

if it is a "virtual 4k sector, that has 512 sectors" = it would have to repeat that 512 * 4

if the counter then just access the next 4 k sector instead of sector 513-4096 then it would mis-align


them same goes for the oposite "using 4 k step writes on 512 sectors"
= it would try to write 4 k on a 512 sector - that would interfere with the next sectors, and leave out 3 512 sectors
a buffer overrun oder underrun is also possible


seems a matter to understand the entire OS file routines


but something else is to see, xp actually handles over 4 GB size here
* 512 = 2 TB
so hard to say but it might use a 32 bit offsetting
while that overlappend structure (what is used on like the entire file functions on xp)
has a 64 bit offsetting

it tends to say "4 gb * 512 sector size"

maybe the issue is small, sure it could be more of problems hard to say


to write a such routine (either 4 times 512 or 4k) would be very simple but

Posted (edited)
On 1/22/2025 at 9:40 PM, Cixert said:

I recommend using Eassos DiskGenius.
The last one I have tried is 5.5.0.1488 from 2023 and it works well with MBR on Windows XP.
I use quite a few Seagate +2TiB disks with physical sector 4096 and the program reports it.
Eassos DiskGenius allows you to choose the alignment when creating the partitions. You can choose 2048 or any other. I wonder what the problem is with choosing the 256 alignment. It doesn't seem to cause any problems with Windows XP's disk manager, unlike 2048.
Always allow time for operations to finish in Eassos DiskGenius, it's not clear when they finish. Same when starting the program, wait for it to start properly before touching anything.
The program also allows you to make a copy of the partition table to restore in case of failure.

Eassos DiskGenius (formerly PartitionGuru) has been my favourite partition manager for years. As far as I know, the last XP compatible version is 5.5.0.1488 from 2023 and works very well under Windows XP. Many, many features, and you get very detailed information about your drives. It is even able to create images of partitions. In any case, I no longer allow any other partition tools to access my hard drives. And I tried a lot of them in the past.

Edited by AstroSkipper
Posted (edited)
On 1/23/2025 at 1:20 AM, Nomen said:

These questions still remain:

How is it possible for a hard drive to be mis-aligned if the PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE is 512 bytes?

Or do all hard drives today (both HDD and SSD) lie and report PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE to be 512 bytes when actually they are 4kb?

Does the concept of alignment really matter for a SSD today?

It is essential to align a disk correctly, especially SSDs, because otherwise you will be using twice as many cells on each write, reducing its useful life by half.
Windows XP incorrectly aligns partitions with 4 KiB physical sectors, starting them at sector 63 instead of 64.
(the disk starts at sector 0 so 63 is sector number 64)
In addition, disks with 512e sectors require having the information for the 512 byte logical sector and for the 4096 byte physical sector, so they cannot start in sector 63 since they will be misaligned in the physical sector in relation to the logical sector.

Here is the formula for the mathematical calculation
https://www.diskpart.com/help/align-partition.html

Aligns partitions starting at sector 63 was traditionally done with hard drives with a physical 512 bytes sector size and 512 bytes cluster size, which is not a problem.

The problem is when the cluster is different from the 512 byte physical sector and when the physical sector becomes 4096 bytes.

Since Windows Vista, the partitions are aligned to sector 2048 to allow all stripe sizes to work that are managed on 2 RAID hard drives working together.
-With a 512 byte sector alignment to sector 2048 results in stripes of 1 MiB.
-With a 4096 byte sector alignment to sector 2048 results in stripes of 4 MiB.

Now there are two problems:
1-In XP:
The alignment to sector 2048 is not compatible with managing MBR hard drives with extended partitions from the Windows XP Disk Manager, by doing so the partitions located within the extended partition could disappear.

2-In Windows Vista:
The alignment to sector 63 presents problems when managing the hard drive from the Windows Vista Disk Manager. At least that is what several users have reported. I do not know if the problem is corrected afterwards.

If two RAID disks are not used working together, the following alignments can be set starting from sector 63 on disks with a physical sector of 512 bytes and from sector 64 on disks with a physical sector of 4096 bytes. I do not know if any of them cause specific problems in any operating system.

LOGICAL & PHYSICAL SECTOR 512 bytes

Cluster 0.5 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition can start in any sector (from 63)
0.5 : 0.5 = 1

Cluster 1 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition must start in a sector multiple of 2.
1 : 0.5 = 2

Cluster 2 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition must start in a sector multiple of 4.
2 : 0.5 = 4

LOGICAL SECTOR 512 bytes & PHYSICAL SECTOR 512/4096 bytes

Cluster 4 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition must start in a sector multiple of 8.
4 : 0.5 = 8

Cluster 8 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition must start in a sector multiple of 16.
8 : 0.5 = 16

Cluster 16 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition must start in a sector multiple of 32.
16 : 0.5 = 32

Cluster 32 KiB - Sector 0.5 KiB
Partition must start on a sector that is a multiple of 64.
32 : 0.5 = 64
 

LOGICAL & PHYSICAL SECTOR 4096 bytes

Cluster 4 KiB - Sector 4 KiB
Partition can start on any sector (from 64)
4 : 4 = 1

Cluster 8 KiB - Sector 4 KiB
Partition must start on a sector that is a multiple of 2.
8 : 4 = 2

Cluster 16 KiB - Sector 4 KiB
Partition must start on a sector that is a multiple of 4.
16 : 4 = 4

Cluster 32 KiB - Sector 4 KiB
Partition must start on a sector that is a multiple of 8.
32 : 4 = 8

¡¡¡At this time I am not sure if hard drives with physical sector 4096 are bootable from Windows XP. They do work as data disks!!!

 

Edited by Cixert
some values ​​were entered incorrectly
Posted

if the life-cycles are meant, it would be better when the firmware to choose these 

that raise a certain question tho, if it splits the sectors with into less and more used sectors , then not just a few die on and on, rather the disc would then later die at once

Posted

Wasn't there an issue of earlier versions of XP/2003 not booting on partition starting at 1 MB? I seem to recall needing to do some dance, because my Server didn't receive that update that made the system compatible. But it has been a while.

I think it's best not to use Extended partitions at all. 4 primary is enough for most needs. Recovering lost extended partitions can be tedious because the extended information is located on distant sectors.  There are enough sectors at the start of the disk that a more sane partitioning method could have been devised. Primaries are also easier to clone to a new disk later. You can clone the first  one or two, say, and then extend the last partition to the end of the disk.

There is another way of aligning FAT32 volumes starting on sector 63 using an odd count of reserved sectors, to make the body of data on them aligned.

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, j7n said:

Wasn't there an issue of earlier versions of XP/2003 not booting on partition starting at 1 MB? I seem to recall needing to do some dance, because my Server didn't receive that update that made the system compatible. But it has been a while.

Right now I'm booting Windows 2000 SP3 and Windows XP SP3 from sector 2048.
In fact, I have the disk divided into 4 boot partitions like this:
1-Boot partition
2-Windows 2000
3-Windows XP
4-Data

I didn't check if it worked with previous versions as well.

Edited by Cixert
Posted (edited)
On 1/22/2025 at 10:40 PM, Cixert said:

After many years using MiniTool Partition Wizard, I recommend not using it.
The program does not align the partitions when creating them

Nonsense. You just didn't figured out where in Partition Wizard option for 4K alignment when creating a new partition. Here it is in menu of creating a new partition:

Partition Wizard Alignment.png

Edited by Rod Steel
Posted
10 hours ago, Rod Steel said:

Nonsense. You just didn't figured out where in Partition Wizard option for 4K alignment when creating a new partition. Here it is in menu of creating a new partition:

Partition Wizard Alignment.png

That's true, if you choose MB alignment instead of cylinder alignment the program aligns first partition to 2048. I thought the option was not included in old version 7.8.
 

On 1/23/2025 at 1:20 AM, Nomen said:

These questions still remain:

How is it possible for a hard drive to be mis-aligned if the PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE is 512 bytes?

Or do all hard drives today (both HDD and SSD) lie and report PHYSICAL SECTOR SIZE to be 512 bytes when actually they are 4kb?

Does the concept of alignment really matter for a SSD today?

 

I'm going to update a bit the information I mentioned before.
Answering your first question, the disks are misaligned by 512 bytes because sector 1 is not the first sector in which a partition starts. There are several sectors reserved for the MBR and the partition table starting with sector 0.

Answering your second question, from what I'm researching these days, Windows XP considers that every hard disk has a physical sector = 512 bytes. Unless a driver or firmware says otherwise. But in any case it is limited to LBA-32.
More info here and in later comments:
https://msfn.org/board/topic/181911-read-gpt-hard-disk-on-windows-xp/page/29/#findComment-1277195

 

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