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ruthan

Realtek 8111E; other issues with newer systems on Windows 98

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I haven't used PS/2 ports in any of my modern PC 98SE installations, so they are not a problem, I haven't seen a single motherboard without at least the Legacy USB setting.

"SETUP /P I" fixes all ACPI problems, the computer might not shutdown after successful install, but that's not such a big nuisance, just pull the power plug/hold power button/flip the switch on PSU/download a DOS program to shutdown and exit to dos to shutdown/etc.

I didn't have to use any paid patches to make 98SE work on my modern computers so far. (I'm lucky or what? :) )

Yes, CSM is required on newer UEFI motherboard to make any non-UEFI OS work. Including 9x, 2000, XP, and possible even DOS? That's the main concern I have too.

Edited by MrMateczko

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Luck or sacrifice?

I found a Laptop that would not recognize the internal Hard Drive in CSM Mode. A USB Key or CD would have been needed just to Boot DOS and Windows 9x.

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2 hours ago, rloew said:

Luck or sacrifice?

I found a Laptop that would not recognize the internal Hard Drive in CSM Mode. A USB Key or CD would have been needed just to Boot DOS and Windows 9x.

And are you going to tell us make/model of that laptop ? :unsure:

And not connected with the internal hard disk being partitioned "GPT style", right?

The hard disk not recognized in BIOS (CSM of UEFI) as if it was not any device connected to the port?

jaclaz
 

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On 27/07/2017 at 3:23 AM, ragnargd said:

Yeah, very right.

Still, i have the gut feeling, making w9x run on Ryzen will be easier than making XP run there.

XP has a much more sensitive kernel (i can see BSODs coming a lot), where, in fact, w9x doesn't have one at all (unless you call DOS a kernel... ;-), so it might bother less. But we'll see.

Come on Lol , you are expert so you saying so . If you slipstream ed hal updates you have better luck . I can install xp with out csm even . Just using patched acpi.sys and pressing f5/f7 for acpi settings during initial stage of setup . I think some like that can be done for 9x .

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45 minutes ago, Dibya said:

I can install xp with out csm even .

Do you actually know what CSM is? :dubbio:

jaclaz
 

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1 hour ago, Dibya said:

Come on Lol , you are expert so you saying so .

Sorry, i don't understand what you mean here. I'm not a native speaker, so bear with me...

1 hour ago, Dibya said:

If you slipstreamed hal updates you have better luck.

Do HAL-updates exist for XP that cover Ryzen CPUs and chipsets? For W98se there won't be any...

1 hour ago, Dibya said:

I can install xp with out csm even. Just using patched acpi.sys and pressing f5/f7 for acpi settings during initial stage of setup.

That works on i.e. 370X chipsets? Interesting. I suggest we continue the XP-subjects on the XP board - i opened a thread there ("XP on Ryzen?"), you might look for it.

You enthusiasm for XP and your long experience with it may become very valuable there.

1 hour ago, Dibya said:

I think some like that can be done for 9x .

Switching off ACPI is a known technique on this MSFN/W9x-board for stubborn boards, and I'd consider doing that, if necessary:

For the AM3+ boards, i never had to do that, and therefore have high hopes, that won't be necessary for Ryzen-chipsets.

Still, this is speculation, i'll first test if i can get all necessary PCI-cards to run in PCIe-to-PCI adapters...

... ... (SATA-AddIn works, being half-height, Soundblaster Audigy, which are full-height, are mechanically challenging, i still wait for an adapter from amazon US)

... and make the onboard-LAN of X370-boards run with NDIS2-drivers (by perhaps buying an AddIn card with the same chipset), before doing the investment in Ryzen.

Thank you for your input!

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6 hours ago, rloew said:

Luck or sacrifice?

I have a shrine to my God Bill Gates, and occasionally sacrifice XP-install-cds there, when goat-heads are not at hand.

Every time i hack a Windows Server installation, i even sacrifice a Windows 7 CD, to keep him from getting really angry...

Edited by ragnargd

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2 hours ago, jaclaz said:

Do you actually know what CSM is? :dubbio:

jaclaz
 

Are you kidding me ? :dubbio:In simple sense it's the legacy mode . A layer that act between uefi and non uefi compatible oses .  The Compatibility Support Module is the thing it stands for . It is designed for legacy situation which is a component of the UEFI bios that provides legacy support by legacy BIOScompatibility by emulating a old BIOSenvironment.

Edited by Dibya

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6 hours ago, jaclaz said:

And are you going to tell us make/model of that laptop ? :unsure:

And not connected with the internal hard disk being partitioned "GPT style", right?

The hard disk not recognized in BIOS (CSM of UEFI) as if it was not any device connected to the port?

jaclaz
 

I don't remember the make and model as I went through a number of Laptops. I tested a few in the store but for later ones I had to buy them and return them.

The internal drive had the default GPT format.

The Drive was physically present but was not detected, so no INT 13 Call would work. I had to load a raw driver to mount the internal drive.

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51 minutes ago, rloew said:

I had to load a raw driver to mount the internal drive

A DOS mode device? Crafted by yourself or 3rd party?

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@Dibya

You wrote:

I can install xp with out csm even .

It would be interesting to know how exactly, and on which specific machine/motherboard you performed that since without a CSM there is no BIOS and thus no BIOS services/interrupts, and without BIOS services/interrupts there is no booting of non-UEFI operating systems, at least last time I checked.


 

@RLoew

I see, it's a pity you don't remember make/model. :(

It is entirely possible that the CSM looked for something *out of spec* like an active partition or a given partition ID or even some initial jump bytes in the MBR code and was not satisfied by the contents of the protective entry in the MBR partition table. :unsure:

jaclaz
 

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@densorso

I used a TSR I wrote rather than a DOS Device Driver.

I have two TSR Programs that I wrote to mount Disks.

One adds an unrecognized Disk to the INT 13 Chain and provides the low level access Code. This comes in handy when hot-swapping Drives.

The second can mount a Partition so it can be accesses by a Drive Letter. This can be used with the first TSR or to mount hidden Partitions.

By extending existing tables, I did not need to write an actual DOS Driver.

@jaclaz

I didn't expect it to boot in CSM Mode but it should have detected the Drive. You can't Partition or Format a Drive you cannot see. That makes it a serious flaw.

Edited by rloew

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37 minutes ago, rloew said:

@jaclaz

I didn't expect it to boot in CSM Mode but it should have detected the Drive. You can't Partition or Format a Drive you cannot see. That makes it a serious flaw.

Sure :(, undoubtedly a very serious flaw, but over the years it happened to me more than once to find "crappy" BIOSes that checked "strange" parts of the MBR and simply didn't find it valid, so - somehow - I am not so much surprised.

At least a couple ones from Insyde/H20, for the record, admittedly the issues I found were related to booting, but the same BIOS programmer that checks "jump bytes" and does not execute them unless they have an arbitrary pattern he/she decided by himself/herself to be "right" is - in my perverted mind - perfectly capable of doing any kind of "crime" when implementing a CSM.

jaclaz
 

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On 7/25/2017 at 1:16 PM, MrMateczko said:

My board works with 98SE. It's not news, rloew uses his Z170 motherboards with 98SE as well.

Currently it's running off the integrated Intel HD 610 GPU from the Pentium G4560 with the VBEMP generic driver. It's good for what it's worth, consideting it's limitations.

I use a USB keyboard and mouse.

The Ethernet card, as I've wrote in my previous posts, works flawlessly with the 2008 98SE driver from Realtek's website, the screenshot shows that clearly.

No Audio, but buying a cheap Chinese USB Audio Card should work.

I'm planning on getting a 7900 GTO. (same as 7900 GTX but with lower memory clocks, the PCB and cooler are identical)

I also must consider on getting a normal HDD, (a 1TB Toshiba should be fine, with the partition limited), because now, I'm running 98SE from my SanDisk Ultra USB 3.0 32GB flashdrive (plugged into a USB 2.0 port).

I use the Rufus utility to create a MS-DOS bootable stick (can't do it on Win10, I had to use the free virtual machines MS provides), then I copy the Win98 folder from the 98SE CD onto it (and remove fluff from USB stick that Rufus creates except for IO.SYS and COMMAND.COM, obviously). Then I boot from it, run "setup /is /ie /iv /iq /im /nr /p i" and let the first part complete. (it completes with no errors)

Then I copy the Vcache patch by Xeno to SYSTEM/VMM32, and the HIMEMX.EXE file to root. I put HIMEMX.EXE into CONFIG.SYS with the /MAX parameter in bytes (I've used 512MB, but 1GB should work too). Those two things make it so that I don't have to modify SYSTEM.INI to get to the second part of the install.

Then I finish the second part (it might freeze, but a restart fixes that). After it boots. I've installed the VBEMP driver, and the LAN driver, also copied the latest portable version of AIDA64 to showcase the PC specs. And that's pretty much it. This is the only method I've tried that works...and I've tried A LOT!

Of course the USB drive works entirely in 16-bit DOS compatibility mode (Windows complains a lot in system properties), so any file operations hang the system for a good while. It is REALLY annoying!

And of course, I've turned Legacy USB, CSM, XHCI Hand-Off, PS/2 Emulator all ON.

So as you can see, it's not perfect, but with a few purchases, I might have the world's fastest 98SE build with the best 3DMark scores, we shall see...Maybe I won't have to buy the SATA or NVIDIA patch at all.

I know there's no Legacy SATA option in the UEFI. So maybe the SATA patch will be a necessity...or I develop one on my own :angel

This is my only PC, normally it runs Win10 on a 240GB SSD. (will back to Win7, since Win10 is getting on my nerves more and more with every day). I obviously won't install 98SE on it, I could in theory do a multi boot with Win7/Win98SE once I get the 1TB HDD, but I would have to switch the GPUs for every OS. (I'm getting a GTX 1050 Ti), and that takes (albeit not much) time... Also, almost all of the 1TB space would be wasted.

20273208_933147450157917_936108430_o.png

I'm the one with the Z170 on MSFN.

This post above contains the specs of the test build that should go to to the thread below:

MOVE this "http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/176889-pci-to-pcie-adapter-work-great/?do=findComment&comment=1142085"

 

Can we get a moderator to move this post to the top of this new thread?

TO here "http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/176983-ultimate-98se-pc-ultimate-disappointment/"

Edited by 98SE

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On 7/26/2017 at 0:17 PM, MrMateczko said:

I probably misread that old post of yours.

But even it if was an older motherboard, the procedures would have been pretty much the same. They can apply to any modern motherboard. So putting bare-bones 98SE on any modern PC is easy. The drivers and patches are what's more important, and those must be decided on individual bases.

That old post was regarding my Z170 but I'm focused on the Z77 for testing before moving back to it.  But looking at some of the problems with the USB ports not working it is due to the removal of eHCI ports on Skylake so until USB 3.0 drivers for 98SE are properly written you won't be able to use those on Board USB 3 ports.  You can try the USB 2.0 headers on the MB but from what I've read they are based off of the USB 3.0 controller so I think they might not work but give those a try using a USB 2.0 header bracket and test it out.  Did the rear USB 2.0 ports not work even for the USB mouse or USB keyboard before applying NUSB?

There are some strict limits on your MB choice.  I would take the 7900 GTO and test it for you.  Which video driver did you use for the test?  The worst limitation on your MB is only two PCIe slots to play with.  If you can find a better one (ATX) with 2 or more PCI slots and the rest PCIe then at least you won't feel as restricted and won't need to have a USB card installed.  I might look at some SB Audigy PCIe to test later to see if they can be hacked to work with 98SE since a PCI model exists they could be driver compatible.

Another issue is the IRQ conflict.  I tested a few PCI/PCIe cards and adding a USB card can conflict with it so it might come down to choosing a PCI/PCIe sound card vs a USB card and using a USB sound card.  This could be a tough choice.

 

Edited by 98SE

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