Woes installing 98SE on new 80g WD HD

[DeadDude]

if I understand your method...

there would never be an image to begin with...?

So, I could technically take a known working hard drive (80gigs or smaller) and use THAT as my 'live' system with my USB adapter to clone it to the suspect new 80gig drive and then place the 80 into the tower and try booting it? So long as the first partition is 40gig and I can create a tester 2nd partition (to mimic the real world issues)? Because only the first 40Gig partition will matter? I may have a spare 60gig for this test and confirmation... I need to confirm a working solution before I implement it.

To answer the question why imaging... it is quite simple in this scenario.

We built 5 of the exact same tower. 4 are in use daily. One of the 4 is the file server. The only machine imaged is the file server. Once every few years we take one of the units down and apply the original image to it. then, we swap the freshly restored imaged tower for the existing file server. I apply the backups to the 'new' server and there is minimal actual down time for the business while the previous server is pulled for maintenance of a physical nature (torn apart, blown out, clean heatsinks, change fans, etc) since this is a machine shop of sorts. Only one machine *must* support true MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 9x, and that isn't even the file server. But these steps are done because a computer will die sitting on the shelf for too long.

It sounds overly complicated and slightly convoluted, but this is honestly the best way to keep this system alive as long as possible. Some of the software requires special dongles that ONLY work in Windows 95/98. Other software is similar, but only DOS specific for the dongles. We have an as-of-yet unused full image of the dongle-laden machine. The 'server' is the only machine that has been swapped out with the spare, as it is the only machine that uses the hard drive for more than boot. Meanwhile, the dongle machine has had to be rebuilt twice because of blown power supplies (bad dusts in this area, and the 'server' in here, too)

This setup requires a minimum of 4 serial ports that are mapped to very specific addresses- there are special DOS-loaded files to accomplish this. The machine(s) were built for this exact purpose- the motherboard was the only one available that supported all the necessary components and was real world tested with my own build.

The dongle machine has NOT been imaged correctly yet- the only image available is possibly corrupt. I need to make a new image. Since the existing image seemed corrupt (same errors and reaction I posted in the first place about), I decided to check out my imaging software by doing the most simplest example I could think of- a basic 98 install with a 2nd partition and random files on it. Each machine on the network has a 2nd partition with the settings and files the actual user has placed on the machine. This data is also stored on the file server. This way, a single dead HD won't render any data lost.

This time around, I had just backed the dongle machine up to the server with the latest files and swapped it for the spare. The spare was completely set up, and then it's hard drive failed. I had to place the original machine back in it's place while I waited for this WD drive...

so in the meantime, a machine that was slated to be cleaned out and cleaned up is sitting past due in a hostile PC environment because of this no good for 98 p.o.s. hard drive.

and until I can confirm a working 98 image and restore, I'm unable to remove the existing system to make a new image without being able to swap the other machine out at the same time (make image one night, restore image to swap during day, make backup at night, swap towers, restore backup same night).

What is REALLY sad is no single hard drive *NEEDS* to be over 4 gigs. I haven't seen a brand new drive that small for about 10 years.

I've also taken this time to attempt a virtual environment for this use, and it is of no use. The timing isn't 'true' enough to work with these applications.

I'm very much interested in a Live98 DVD for use in this application... If *ONE* machine lost it's drive, the Live98 could in theory keep it operational as the 'browser' machine (no local files of any sort needed). That would render my current issues moot, as I could create this DVD and use one of the existing hard drives in this dongle machine.

Sorry for the book I wrote above, but I realize the choice to image is honestly foolish... but it appears the easiest to implement when the biz owner is looking at retirement within 10 years and can't retire if he needs to find a solution by throwing money at inferior possibilities.

!

thanks for your help! I'll try the killdisk stuff and get back!

g'nite!

[loblo]

There should normally be no problems at all for partitioning a zeroed 80GB drive with fdisk and writing a standard mbr on it or am I wrong?

[ScrewUpgrading]

okay...

(1) Whatever software this guy needs for DOS or Windows 98, he should have, in the last 15 years, searched for a backup copy of the original program. Has anybody with a half a brain checked Ebay for the software in question? Anyone?

(2) Whatever data this guy needs, there should be a way to back it up without requiring the creation of an image of an entire operating system and hard drive. It's overkill. Basically, what you're saying is there is no way his valuable files can be separated from the Windows 98 operating system? What? Are they saved in the dang Windows folder? Because by imaging an entire drive like that, that's pretty much what it means. It's a completely senseless way of maintaining important files. It means every time you need to transfer the files, you have to screw around with creating partitions or else formatting the disk to Fat or NT.

That's like saying you need to save your family photos by imaging the entire computer!!! What, didn't it occur to anyone to put the important files somewhere besides the Window folder?

(3) I just don't understand how it's not possible to salvage this guy's files without resorting to imaging a bunch of empty space, a bunch of windows folders and system files, and finally the small amount of files that he needs... which end up buried under a mountain of Windows crap. Is there no way to fix this problem without imaging a hard drive?

What is REALLY sad is no single hard drive *NEEDS* to be over 4 gigs. I haven't seen a brand new drive that small for about 10 years.

There's millions of them on Ebay for heaven's sake.... and they're cheap. What do you need a new hard drive for?

Finally, you should probably just listen to Dencorso, because my anti-imaging bias is probably no help.

Okay, I'll shut up now

[dencorso]

@loblo: Yes, in principle. Then again, there are many free and paid-for alternatives to FDISK that are way better. RPM 2.44 is the first of the free alternatives that comes to my mind because it's time proven and reliable. PFDISK is another good choice, while FreeDOS's free FDISK is less satisfying. Symantec's GDISK and RLoew's RDISK are probably the best ones that are commercial. Moreover, in the specific example here, what I'm aiming at is the utmost reliability of tools I'm well acquainted with and which I know for sure should work beyond reasonable doubt.

@DeadDude: Yes. For the exercise I'm proposing, there'll be no image at all, really. But that's no general solution, and can only be applied to Win 9x/ME. Most other OSes cannot be cloned while working. I, myself, use images all the time and love them. But what I'm trying to establish, more than anything, here, is whether there's a problem with the HDD, or (which is my current bet) the problem lies with your image acquisition/redeployment routine and/or software tools. So I though up a procedure that does not require imaging, but which can only work because we're talking 9x/ME and the actual hardware is just about the same.

[loblo]

@loblo: Yes, in principle. Then again, there are many free and paid-for alternatives to FDISK that are way better. RPM 2.44 is the first of the free alternatives that comes to my mind because it's time proven and reliable. PFDISK is another good choice, while FreeDOS's free FDISK is less satisfying. Symantec's GDISK and RLoew's RDISK are probably the best ones that are commercial. Moreover, in the specific example here, what I'm aiming at is the utmost reliability of tools I'm well acquainted with and which I know for sure should work beyond reasonable doubt.

Allright but my point being that since there is no known issues for doing this job with fdisk and that there is hardly a way to make a mistake with it, a failure to obtain a satisfactory result with it would confirm my suspicion that there might be a new and yet unknown Win98 issue with very recent WD drives of any size which was the object of my first post in this thread but a failure to obtain a satisfactory result with Ranish wouldn't indicate as much as it could simply be due to an error made with this extremely confusing and complicated tool.

Edited November 27, 2011 by loblo

[dencorso]

...but a failure to obtain a satisfactory result with Ranish wouldn't indicate as much as it could simply be due to an error made with this extremely confusing and complicated tool.

Well, I, for one, find RPM intuitive and user friendly!

But if that turns out to be a problem, we then may select another tool. But I'd avoid Win 98SE FDISK just because it's part of what has been done before. The fact that I don't know about any bug in it does not mean there isn't any. I'm just being careful here.

[loblo]

Well, I, for one, find RPM intuitive and user friendly!

I am just wondering how many years it took you to get to that impression.

[rloew]

I'm very much interested in a Live98 DVD for use in this application... If *ONE* machine lost it's drive, the Live98 could in theory keep it operational as the 'browser' machine (no local files of any sort needed). That would render my current issues moot, as I could create this DVD and use one of the existing hard drives in this dongle machine.

If everything fits in 4.7GB or 8.4GB(DVD-DL) or 23GB (Blu-Ray), it is possible to created a LiveDVD/LiveBD that runs Windows 98 from a RAMDisk, but you need enough RAM for the Image plus the running system.

[dencorso]

Well, I, for one, find RPM intuitive and user friendly!

I am just wondering how many years it took you to get to that impression.

Well, for sure less than 10 years, for I've been using it since v. 2.40 (Feb 2001).

[Foxbat]

I have been using the Western Digital WD800AAJB hard drive in my Windows 95 OSR2.1 build since last year. No special needs. Works the same as any other IDE hard drive.

[jaclaz]

I would then take out your new HD, and put in a "fresh" "used" FAT32 hard drive (ie, same model as your original). Don't use anything that's already been molested and fdisked several times over, or NT partitioned in it's previous life, use only something that came from a DOS/Win 9x system or computer from that era.

Are you - by any means - suggesting that (apart form wear) a hard disk that has been "molested" by "having been NT partitioned" has some kind of "memory"....?

Any actual comparison between the wear of a disk coming form a NT based machine used by a granny to just check e-mails once a week and one coming from a 9x gamer machine?

About imaging, if you think that it is overkill most of the times, you are perfectly right , but if you think that (should you know where your towel is ) it is not a VERY comprehensive way to be able to re-create a working machine, you would be wrong.

When you image a disk (dd-like or forensic sound) you have ALL the informations that were on the disk.

From the ALL you can extract ONLY those that you need and/or modify them to suite your particular needs.

Using ANY other method you only have PARTIAL info.

If you got the "right subset" of the "ALL" in the "PARTIAL" it's OK (and you saved probably some time and definitely a lot of backup space ), but if - by any chance - you need something that is not comprised in the "PARTIAL" you are stuck.

Everyone is - as always - free to take his/her chances, of course.

A good substitute (IMHO) for RPM (which remains - if you READ the docs AND you know what you are doing, i.e. know how a partitioning scheme works - besides one of the "best" one of the "simpler" partition utilities) is -strangely enough - a tool developed completely outside the DOS/Windows/Linux world, PartitionLogic:

http://partitionlogic.org.uk/

jaclaz

[DeadDude]

POST COPIED CUZ IT'S ON FIRST PAGE AND I'M LAZY!

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Let's do a more controlled experiment:

1) Get Active KillDisk and use it to zero-out (= write 0s) to the whole of the problem 80 GB HDD.

It takes dome time to complete.

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Okay, so I've used that utility in the past, so I guess I should boot off that and kill the HD while it is inside the tower.

2) Get the aforementioned RPM 2.44 and use it to write an standard IPL to the MBR, and to create and format exactly two partitions: the 1st, set active, should be a primary 40 GB partition and the 2nd, an extended partition with a single logical partition inside, spanning the rest of the disk.

_________________________________________

Got the file... appears to be DOS compatible? cwspdmi file generally means DOS, right? So I need to create a boot CD with KillDisk and RPM?

3) Use the DOS LABEL.EXE command to give each partition a meaningful label, say, "PRIMARY" to the 1st partition and "LOGICAL" to the 2nd one.

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So THAT'S what Label.exe is for?! I've never ever used it. Wouldn't RPM have the naming option? not splitting hairs, just trying to reduce the steps to minimal CDs burned (no floppy drive on machine!)

4) Get the free version of XXCOPY (you must get XXCOPY FREEWARE v.2.96.5 - xxfw2965.zip, which is the last version that works in 9x/ME), install it to your working machine and use XXCOPY to clone the live system to the 80 GB HDD's 1st partition. To do this you'll need to either connect it to your internal IDE controller as a slave disk or, much easier, connect it by means of a USB-to-IDE bridge cable that you can get cheaply on eBay or at your local computer shop. Suposing you decide to use the USB-to-IDE bridge, and that your 80 GB HDD gets the letters X: (1st partition) and Y: (2nd partition), and you can ensure you got it right because you know the labels of the partitons, you can clone the live system by simply issuing the command:

xxcopy c:\ x:\ /clone /yy /X"c:\win386.swp"

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I don't have this package yet, but from what I understand.... this command line will /clone the C:\ to X:\ (which should be the FIRST partition in the 80) and EXCLUDE the swap file? What is the /yy for?

EDIT- it suppresses all prompts during activity.

You said this command will ONLY work on a Win9x system when the system is 'live'? Put another way, this technique specifically will only work in this manner on a Windows 95/98/98se/me system? Could/should I try using DOS USB drivers and issue the command from a true DOS commandline? I'm asking simply because the other utilities seem to be DOS-specific, and I'm beginning to think it might be advantageous to stick to these DOS tools (possibly make a custom boot CD with only these packages/drivers/specific purpose in mind?)

I do have an USB to IDE bridge adapter, and I have the MaxumDecim USB package as well as a working DOS USB-Driver boot CD. To be honest, I believe I would prefer to try the DOS method first, as the USB drivers in the M.D. package sometimes results in a phantom USB2.0 controller on these boards for some reason... I understand it don't mean it's broke, but it looks bad to the client if/when he sees it.

Silly me... I missed the part where you said I could install it internally...

Since my DVDRW is SATA, and this board supports running SATA in IDE mode and I can have 2 true IDE channels AND the SATA in IDE mode... would it be ok to connect the suspect 80g as master to the secondary channel (solo drive on channel?) and the boot on primary master with DVDRW on IDE 3rd channel?

I understand that question may seem trivial, but I also understand you more than likely know more than me on this.

5) Put the 80 GB HDD back to its machine jumpered as master and reboot the machine.

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to summarize, I would like to know if it should be acceptable to make a custom Boot CD with all these programs on it and place the 80G on 2nd Master IDE with origin HD on 1st Master IDE with SATA DVDRW in IDE comp. mode on IDE3?

And is it safe to do all these steps from the DOS BootCD? I know I need to reboot between steps (to be honest, more than likely I will power down completely, just for good measure).

I am working on getting the files suggested and building the BootCD in the meantime. I will definitely check back before taking another step.

Thank you for your help!

oh yeah, I contacted WD on this matter and am waiting for a response. I also read all the tech data I could find on the drive and discovered that others have reported similar issues recently, but only one person has had an issue with the same drive I have here.

a thread here : http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=975157

by Rjecina appears to have similar issues to mine, but with a 2Tb hard drive. Reading it makes me wonder if I goofed up right off the bat by using the internal FDisk from the 98SE installer... and the next thing I did (boot w2k and use that to partition) made things worse...

the real question at this point then, is why would using the WD low level format tool NOT remove debris from earlier attempts? I assume a low level format should completely destroy any fubar'd partition data, shouldn't it?

I see that THAT is why you suggest using ActiveKillDisk, I think. Right?

[dencorso]

Yes. Active Killdisk (use the dos extender version, not the real-mode one, which is slower), RPM and LABEL must be run from true DOS, and a bootable CD is OK.

XXCOPY16, the DOS version of XXCOPY will mangle the long filenames, so it's a no-no. You must run the Windows version of it, from inside a running Win9x/ME.

I don't get why you didn't get the right XXCOPY already, because I gave a direct download link to it, just click on the blue "xxfw2965.zip" and it'll download.

Yes, using the good HDD as primary master and the problem HDD as secondary master is OK, if the jumpers are set right on both HDDs... you're right, it should be simpler. But do check that the jumpers in the 80 GB HDD are set right to "master", OK.?

I see that THAT is why you suggest using ActiveKillDisk, I think. Right?

Sure.

[DeadDude]

it took me a second to find xxcopy... at the moment, I couldn't see the forest for the trees...

I have since discovered all other utilities are on my UBCD, so I figure I would avoid the extra work of loading the drivers into the 'old' hard drive (only install 98SE, no patches, no updates, no drivers), run xxcopy, swap drives, and load drivers in the 80.

Do you see any possible issues with that?

In about 10 minutes I'll be zero'ing the drive. got side tracked... located everything and made sure in a VM my UBCD is a good copy.

Edited November 27, 2011 by DeadDude

[DeadDude]

I just confirmed the drive is 'Advanced Formatted', and from what I understand that means 4k instead of 512b...

does that mean I'm dead in the water?

Is RPM 'advanced format' aware?

It looks like I messed up the drive majorly from using utilities/partitioners/etc that aren't 4k aware....?

Does any of this make sense to someone out there? I thought a low level format would place a 512b format and remove the 4k?

Insert profanity here.

I'm still going to sero it out with killdisk. pending answers posted, I might take a trip to the shooting range with this sucker.