Bootable Floppy Image Works On CD But Not On DVD

[dencorso]

btw, 95A is not = 4.00.950)

Sure! I have corrected that now... thanks a lot!

Now, your correction prompted me to check it at MDGx's [link], and by doing so I also got the internal file dates for Win 95 RTM, which is Jul 11, 1995. And we know from my previous post that the date of the Joliet Specification [link] is May 22, 1995. Hence Joliet, in fact, preceeds Win 95 RTM by two months.

@dencorso - I guess you missed where I wrapped some phrases/words in "quotes" (implying... what?).

No, actually I did not. But double quotes used in this sense can be missed. So I took some time wondering whether I should reply as I did or not. In the end, I've decided for it, because I think it could help dispel any doubts created by your statements, just in case. I think your point about the burning speeds, in particular, is too important to let doubts any hanging... and a complicated one, too, in that the bus speed, the speed of the processor, the quality and speed rating of the media, and the workload of the machine at the time of burning, all play a part in the resulting success (or failure) of the procedure.

... guess I'm stoopid .

No way! That you aren't, for sure! I (and many here, I'm sure) value very much your contributions for your knowledge, experience and, above all, willingness to share and help. You rock!

As for the exact nature of LoneCrusader's problem, cdob summarized it quite nicely here:

However, I am having a strange problem with the DVD in Windows 95C. In Windows 95, and only 95, some of the names of the files and folders are truncated (not like DOS with a ~, they just stop), and some of the characters in the names of the files or folders are changed, ( ex. & , ! , and a Space changed to _ ).

Windows 98 supports UDF and lists UDF names.

Windows 95 dosn't support UDF and lists ISO9660 names.

He was interested in getting the bootable DVD to work, so he didn't worry too much about the filesystems the mastering software suggested. Neither would I, were I in his place. Then the problem manifested. Had ImgBurn selected ISO9660 and Joliet, there would be no problem at all. But since it was a DVD, its default is to use UDF instead, which turned out to be a bad choice for Win 95. Murphy's law, as always.

[LoneCrusader]

So, if what I understand you to say, you have Folder/Filenames/FilenameContents that require -

1 - UniCode support

2 - FilenameLength>31

3 - PathDepth>8

4 - PathChars>255

Yep.

If so, then YES, a rename would be required. Otherwise Joliet is necessary but not UDF.

My point is, you appear to have a need for Joliet and UDF...

Apparently I only need Joliet, like I said, ImgBurn chose UDF on its own. The only reason I have been discussing UDF is for exploring the possibility of adding a UDF driver to 95.

Please re-read your own posts/problems and explain exactly what you're having problems with that the above won't "cure" (the reason I psoted in the first place).

I thought I explained the problems very clearly...

I won't know whether or not the problem will be cured until I actually make another version of the DVD/ISO, which I am not ready to do yet. Right now I am just experimenting with some other functions, and working on the final selection of files to be included on the second copy of my disc.

Perhaps my confusion lies in your explanation of what you see as "how things work", re: Correctly Readable vs Incorrectly Readable under Which Conditions.

I have found no problems with booting the DVD or with JO.SYS, etc.

I have found no problems accessing the DVD in DOS with MSCDEX or using any of the DOS tools.

I have found no problems with the DVD in Windows 98SE or Windows ME.

In Windows 95, and only 95, some of the names of the files and folders are truncated (not like DOS with a ~, they just stop), and some of the characters in the names of the files or folders are changed, ( ex. & , ! , and a Space changed to _ ).

Also note that I stated that DOS (the Bootable Floppy) will be unable to read anything but the Conforming names properly (the nature of DOS). This should present absolutely no problem unless you're trying to install/accese something other than the Windows installation (e.g. Win95\Setup.exe). (note - using ISO-9660 Only as FileSystem in example)

Yes, the DOS Boot Floppy is only for Windows installation and running DOS tools.

not sure if you're using Grub4DOS or not, but using a custom AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS and several freeware programs (as jaclaz said, and used in the 98SE projects), I have booted and installed Win95 from a DVD-ISO (the original topic). It's therefore only necessary to use Grub4DOS if you have need for multi-install/boot, as selections can be made in AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS to run other BAT scripts/programs directly from the CD/DVD after boot.

I am not using GRUB4DOS for this project, as I finally got the DVD booting with a normal DOS floppy, which was my original goal. But my floppy is heavily customized using those files you mention.

... guess I'm stoopid

No. But neither am I. It can be very easy to get confused trying to understand other people's projects and methods, as you don't actually have a copy of it in front of you to see what's going on.

respect to/for all in this thread...

Murphy's law, as always.

Yes, why can't things just work or at least be simple? Haha

Edited March 7, 2010 by LoneCrusader

[submix8c]

In Windows 95, and only 95, some of the names of the files and folders are truncated (not like DOS with a ~, they just stop), and some of the characters in the names of the files or folders are changed, ( ex. & , ! , and a Space changed to _ ).

Not to continue the argument (well, kind of), but I'm betting you haven't tried what I said. I just used these characters (changed WIN95.BMP to "!& WIN95.BMP" -> note the blank embedded) and it displays just fine... Again, if you go outside of the ASCII Character Set (did you look), then yes, you need the Extension. Otherwise, No, you do not.

Could you provide an EXACT example-name of a filename/folder that gets "translated"? Looks to me like you're putting maybe a Russian or Chinese (or to put it bluntly, non-ASCII) files on the DVD/CD. I'm saying that it was probably the UDF-burn that caused this and made you assume you needed Joliet. SO... that would just leave the filename/pathdepth/pathchars promoting the need for Joliet (unless non-ASCII which also forces the need due to UniCode).

Unicode vs ANSI The link also is more in reference to the Kernel than anything, but better explains the difference. Not all Wiki's are very clear. An MS PDF document re: Unicode

Light reading on UDF/Purpose etc.

Bottom line, probably DOS doesn't care (uses the "ASCII-Index").

Joliet fine (if there is an absolute need).

UDF fine (if you absolutely have to) but not Win95 (...unless a suitable driver/vxd is found.)

Also please read closely my last post (not just snippets) and read very closely the commenting in the Autoexec.Bat. This stuff was "yanked" from UBCD ("deleted" thread) and what I provided is not (AFAICT) "warez" in any way. Point being, let's make your project a little easier using predefined workable solutions. The solutions are no longer available in a single source (AFAIK) - all was "gathered" in UBCD from various sources, including some very knowledgeable members.

You must have some extremely-long / odd-named folder/file names... If not, using methods I suggested would simplify.

Oh, and one more thing... if you think you can use DOS to "install" any of these long-names (Text-mode) forget it! Part of the reason UBCD absolutely required renaming anything NOT installed during/after "First-95-Start". Note that NT-type OS' allow for quoting of filenames (in BAT/CMD) to prevent truncation (e.g. at a blank) but 9x-type OS' don't so forget auto-installing (even after startup) via BAT files (check it and see... could be wrong!). Note also we didn't try/use the LFN-support for DOS because of that very problem (i.e. pointless). This is the reason WPI (a special version just for UBCD) and Manual Installs were the only place long-filenames were used (post-install).

When you discover a workable UDF-for-Win95 solution, please let us know.

A Google-search on UDF+"windows 95" yields Adaptec Driver... Although I believe this may only be good for their brand of UDF (not sure).

This claims UDF is supported in OSR2 and up.

A check reveals 95OSR2.5 doesn't provide UDF.VXD either.

One might assume this is the reason for using a 3d-party (e.g. Adaptec) driver.

And this gives good info/explanation/purpose and says 98-up (yes, it's there)...

Please, LoneCrusader, just try it. As I said, you came along after UBCD/AP (AP thread still there, useless for your purposes, UBCD thread gone) therefore don't have access to "been there, done that". If you really want to refute instead of try and/or don't want any suggestions/assistance from me anymore, I'll gladly bow out of this thread.

(get IsoBuster Trial, create ISO's, open them with the Trial IsoBuster and you'll see exactly what is there... 'Nuff Said!)

Edited March 7, 2010 by submix8c

[cdob]

So, if what I understand you to say, you have Folder/Filenames/FilenameContents that require -

1 - UniCode support

2 - FilenameLength>31

3 - PathDepth>8

4 - PathChars>255

Yep.

Apparently I only need Joliet

Joliet dosn't support requirements.

Joliet specification allows 64 chars PathChars. You may use 110 chars at own risk.

Can you name some examples?

Which directory and file names goes to DVD?

The only reason I have been discussing UDF is for exploring the possibility of adding a UDF driver to 95.

Back then there was UDF reader for packet writing software.

'Adaptec UDF Reader Driver 5.1.1.213' should work at Windows 95.

[submix8c]

err... (directly from the MS document) to clarify -

* The File or Directory Identifiers may be up to 128 bytes (64 unicode characters) in length.

* Directory Identifiers may contain file name extensions.

* The Directory Hierarchy may be recorded deeper than 8 levels.

"More-than" doubling the ISO-9660/ASCII "relaxations" as I had stated (but nothing more, except for UniCode)... Edited March 7, 2010 by submix8c

[LoneCrusader]

I apologize for the snippets, but I feel I need to address each issue separately.

I'm betting you haven't tried what I said.

No I haven't. Because I just said several times above that I am running some experiments and I am not ready to create the DVD again yet!

Could you provide an EXACT example-name of a filename/folder that gets "translated"?.

Here are two screenshots.

The first one is from Windows 98 Second Edition and is properly displayed.

This is what it is supposed to look like!

The second one is from Windows 95 C OSR 2.5 and is truncated/translated.

This is the problem!

UDF fine ... but not Win95 (...unless a suitable driver/vxd is found.)

This is the whole point of the UDF discussion above!

Also please read closely my last post (not just snippets) and read very closely the commenting in the Autoexec.Bat. This stuff was "yanked" from UBCD ("deleted" thread) and what I provided is not (AFAICT) "warez" in any way. Point being, let's make your project a little easier using predefined workable solutions. The solutions are no longer available in a single source (AFAIK) - all was "gathered" in UBCD from various sources, including some very knowledgeable members.

You must have some extremely-long / odd-named folder/file names... If not, using methods I suggested would simplify.

Oh, and one more thing... if you think you can use DOS to "install" any of these long-names (Text-mode) forget it! Part of the reason UBCD absolutely required renaming anything NOT installed during/after "First-95-Start". Note that NT-type OS' allow for quoting of filenames (in BAT/CMD) to prevent truncation (e.g. at a blank) but 9x-type OS' don't so forget auto-installing (even after startup) via BAT files (check it and see... could be wrong!). Note also we didn't try/use the LFN-support for DOS because of that very problem (i.e. pointless). This is the reason WPI (a special version just for UBCD) and Manual Installs were the only place long-filenames were used (post-install).

This project and this thread have nothing to do with the UBCD!

I am not trying to create something similar!

I do not plan to install anything from DOS except Windows, or DOS programs!

Who said anything about renaming anything during installation!?

You are getting off on tangents that have nothing to do with the problem at hand!

A Google-search on UDF+"windows 95" yields Adaptec Driver...

Yes, jaclaz and I mentioned that earlier. I asked a question about it and DirectCD that no one has attempted to answer yet.

Please, LoneCrusader, just try it. As I said, you came along after UBCD/AP (AP thread still there, useless for your purposes, UBCD thread gone) therefore don't have access to "been there, done that". If you really want to refute instead of try and/or don't want any suggestions/assistance from me anymore, I'll gladly bow out of this thread.

I appreciate your suggestions and assistance. I just feel that you are not paying close attention to what has been said. For example, once again this has nothing to do with the UBCD! You keep returning to that and it has nothing to do with what I am trying to accomplish here, or the problem I am having, because the problem is 95 specific!

Can you name some examples?

Which directory and file names goes to DVD?

Check screenshots above.

Back then there was UDF reader for packet writing software.

Adaptec UDF Reader Driver 5.1.1.213' should work at Windows 95.

Do you happen to know the answer to my question about this UDF reader and DirectCD that I posted above?

Edited March 6, 2011 by LoneCrusader

[cdob]

Check screenshots above.

Can you post text examples:

longest full path name: directory filename with extension

deepest directory file, again as full path

strangest unicode name, again as full path

Do you happen to know the answer to my question about this UDF reader and DirectCD that I posted above?

No, I don't know.

The mentioned UDF reader was a freeware part of DirectCD.

The reader may work at Windows 95 or fail. And read a ImgBurn UDF or fail.

Try and report the result.

[submix8c]

This project and this thread have nothing to do with the UBCD!

I am not trying to create something similar!

I do not plan to install anything from DOS except Windows, or DOS programs!

Who said anything about renaming anything during installation!?

You are getting off on tangents that have nothing to do with the problem at hand!

I just feel that you are not paying close attention to what has been said. For example, once again this has nothing to do with the UBCD! You keep returning to that and it has nothing to do with what I am trying to accomplish here, or the problem I am having, because the problem is 95 specific!

Check screenshots above.

[1/2] I didn't suggest doing anything like UBCD. Did you also miss the "quotes"? I "yanked" this (i.e. modified and incomplete) from UBCD. I had provided potential solutions, along with examples and information for your purposes. The Zip'ed example was used to boot the DVD and provides for multiple CD/DVD-drives; if you don't care (commenting/documentation) then ignore it!

[2/3] Check my screenshots! How you figure there's a difference between 95 and 98 as to how "it works"... I don't get it! There IS no difference, except how you do it, which is why you are getting the results you get.

"DRIVERS\MOTHERBOARDS\SOYO\SOME MAY BE BOARD SPECIFIC.TXT"

7+12+4+26.3=42 (longest example given, excluding "un"-provided subfolder content)

- no pathfolders=>8

- no pathchars=>255

- no filenames=>31

No need for Joliet, but your option (as i had said, and did not dispute).

There is a way to install (your other thread...) the AMD+DUN patches "pre-1st-reboot" (an inaccurate misnomer). I have the "method" ("juggle" execution via MSBATCH.INF+BAT-files). This would have been an example from UBCD. Guess you don't want that...

You've basically insisted (read my post/your response) that I'm trying to "twist your arm" (not true) and you've interpreted my statements to imply that's my intention.

Based upon your responses (my perception of attitude), I will from this point forward a$$-u-me that you

don't want any suggestions/assistance from me anymore

so

I'll gladly bow out of this thread

(...and the others as well).

I don't dare risk too much from UBCD (obvious reasons) for fear of being banned. I'm already treading heavily with this "conversation" (self-warned...).

Great-grandpappy always said "don't go away mad, just go away". I'm gone, but pretty p-o'd!

I truly wish you success in your endeavor. Have a great day...

Edited March 8, 2010 by submix8c

[LoneCrusader]

Can you post text examples:

longest full path name: directory filename with extension

deepest directory file, again as full path

strangest unicode name, again as full path

I should clarify this section from above:

So, if what I understand you to say, you have Folder/Filenames/FilenameContents that require -

1 - UniCode support

2 - FilenameLength>31

3 - PathDepth>8

4 - PathChars>255

Yep.

I said Yes, meaning that I have one of these things; folders/files that would require Joliet or UDF; not meaning that I have all of these things.

Here is the deepest folder:

D:\DRIVERS\Video\ATI\ATI Radeon\Windows 95\8500\Install\Gart\IntelGart\setupdir\0007\Readme.txt

which is 10 directory levels deep.

Here is the longest path:

D:\DRIVERS\Motherboards\Soyo\SY-P4I845PE ISA\Drivers\V1.0 Boards ONLY\Realtek Audio\WinNT4\SoundMan.exe

which contains 103 characters.

I do not have any Unicode file or folder names, and I do not have any "ridiculously long" filenames. I do however have file and folder names that have multiple periods . , Spaces, and the charcaters I mentioned before, & ! - etc.

[1/2] I didn't suggest doing anything like UBCD. Did you also miss the "quotes"? I "yanked" this (i.e. modified and incomplete) from UBCD. I had provided potential solutions, along with examples and information for your purposes. The Zip'ed example was used to boot the DVD and provides for multiple CD/DVD-drives; if you don't care (commenting/documentation) then ignore it!

Thank you for the file, the information, and the potential solutions. But this does not have anything to do with UDF or the problem we were talking about. It is useful for the DVD boot issue, but that had already been solved back on page 3.

[2/3] Check my screenshots! How you figure there's a difference between 95 and 98 as to how "it works"... I don't get it! There IS no difference, except how you do it, which is why you are getting the results you get.

The IS a very simple difference, addressed back on page 3 by cdob.

Windows 95 does not support UDF, and therefore is not reading the UDF long filenames.

And, as dencorso and I said before: Solution:

Include Joliet on the DVD instead of or along with UDF.

We have been arguing about this for no reason other than you keep "a$$-u-ming," as you say, that I don't know what I'm talking about when I (and others above) said my DVD would require Joliet.

There is a way to install (your other thread...) the AMD+DUN patches "pre-1st-reboot" (an inaccurate misnomer). I have the "method" ("juggle" execution via MSBATCH.INF+BAT-files). This would have been an example from UBCD. Guess you don't want that...

Any suggestions you may have for the other thread would be appreciated, should you desire to give them. That is your choice.

You've basically insisted (read my post/your response) that I'm trying to "twist your arm" (not true) and you've interpreted my statements to imply that's my intention.

Based upon your responses (my perception of attitude), I will from this point forward a$$-u-me that you

don't want any suggestions/assistance from me anymore

so

I'll gladly bow out of this thread

(...and the others as well).

I don't dare risk too much from UBCD (obvious reasons) for fear of being banned. I'm already treading heavily with this "conversation" (self-warned...).

Great-grandpappy always said "don't go away mad, just go away". I'm gone, but pretty p-o'd!

I truly wish you success in your endeavor. Have a great day...

I fail to see where you think that I am implying that you are "twisting my arm."

My point is that we have been arguing for no reason about things that have already been solved or are not relevant to the problem at hand.

EDIT: Found a longer path.

Edited March 8, 2010 by LoneCrusader

[cdob]

I said Yes, meaning that I have one of these things; folders/files that would require Joliet or UDF; not meaning that I have all of these things.

Well, one single yep is confusing to four questions. Thanks for clarifing.

Here is the deepest folder:

D:\DRIVERS\Video\ATI\ATI Radeon\Windows 95\8500\Install\Gart\IntelGart\setupdir\0007\Readme.txt

which is 10 directory levels deep.

Here is the longest path:

D:\DRIVERS\Motherboards\Soyo\SY-P4I845PE ISA\Drivers\V1.0 Boards ONLY\Realtek Audio\WinNT4\SoundMan.exe

which contains 103 characters.

Ok, this clarify some parts.

I do not have any Unicode file or folder names, and I do not have any "ridiculously long" filenames. I do however have file and folder names that have multiple periods . , Spaces, and the charcaters I mentioned before, & ! - etc.

The etc. is the missing part. Can you name some examples again?

ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/developr/drg/Multimedia/Joliet/Joliet-RTF.rtf

4.3.2 Allowed Character Set

All UCS-2 code points shall be allowed except for the following UCS-2 code points:

All code points between (00)(00) and (00)(1F), inclusive. (Control Characters)

(00)(2A) ‘*’(Asterisk)

(00)(2F) ‘/’ (Forward Slash)

(00)(3A) ‘:’ (Colon)

(00)(3B) ‘;’ (Semicolon)

(00)(3F) ‘?’ (Question Mark)

(00)(5C) ‘\’ (Backslash)

A Windows 95 B CD use ISO9660 and Joliet here. No idea about a older version.

Sorry could not resist: I consider Joliet a waste of space still.

Contrary this should result a readable DVD in your case. Go ahead.

[dencorso]

Sorry could not resist: I consider Joliet a waste of space still.

Contrary this should result a readable DVD in your case. Go ahead.

Neither I can resist: In a 4.38 GiB DVD, of which one can only use 4 GiB because of Win95 compatibility limitations, 0.38 GiB is already wasted, and surely that's enough space for both the Joliet and UDF structures.

[rloew]

I have found a way to modify the Windows 98 UDF Driver to work with Windows 95 and 95C.

This should solve the problem.

[dencorso]

I have found a way to modify the Windows 98 UDF Driver to work with Windows 95 and 95C.

This should solve the problem.

Wonderful! That's great news! You do rock, RLoew!

BTW, which one? 4.10.1998, 4.10.2222 or 4.10.2223 (Q310695)?

[rloew]

I have found a way to modify the Windows 98 UDF Driver to work with Windows 95 and 95C.

This should solve the problem.

Wonderful! That's great news! You do rock, RLoew!

BTW, which one? 4.10.1998, 4.10.2222 or 4.10.2223 (Q310695)?

I used 4.10.1998 which would have been the closest to Windows 95. I haven't tried the others.

The link you had for 4.10.2223 was for 4.90.3001.

Edited March 9, 2010 by rloew

[LoneCrusader]

I have found a way to modify the Windows 98 UDF Driver to work with Windows 95 and 95C.

This should solve the problem.

I knew there had to be a way. I just wish I had the know-how.