XP/Vista-compatible clients for modern email services?

[AstroSkipper]

4 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

Has anyone attempted building an x64 build of MailNews?

I assume no one has attempted it. And I think there won't be anyone trying that. The only person that could realise such a port is not interested in an x64 build. TBH, I don't believe there is any acute urgency for doing so, either.

[UCyborg]

On 11/5/2023 at 11:59 PM, Jody Thornton said:

Still I prefer to use an application natively, rather than through x86 emulation if I can.  I don't see that as "just because".  However, even if that were the case, I still prefer to run an application that utilizes the native bus-width of the OS I'm using.  My choice - good enough reason for me

Indeed, though I find it curious that lack of 64-bit binaries bothers you, but not catering down to the lowest common denominator on the API level, which is the main thing with roytam1's programs.

Anyway, my suggestion would be Epyrus or SeaMonkey. They both come in 64-bit flavors and don't cater to ancient operating system versions. SeaMonkey is a full internet suite, so comes with web browser as well, though some are concerned about its future due to very small dev team and how they're diverging from Mozilla's platform. Epyrus would be to Pale Moon like what Thunderbird is to Firefox, it's developed by one of the people among Moonchild Productions crew. They say underlying platform code updates shouldn't play the big role when it comes to mail client (at least for now I think), so the core stuff should work OK even in older versions of whatever fork you end up using.

There's one specific about Epyrus, it doesn't pretend to be Thunderbird for legal reasons like Mozilla forks tend to, meaning if you need it to work with GMail, you'd have to go through the procedure of generating your own OAuth2 client key and secret. I didn't finish it through to the end and ended up deleting everything I created, wanted to keep things simple, Google can think whatever they want... Open Config Editor and set the following prefs:

oauth2.google.clientid -> 406964657835-aq8lmia8j95dhl1a2bvharmfk3t1hgqj.apps.googleusercontent.com
oauth2.google.clientsecret -> kSmqreRr0qwBWJgbf5Y-PjSU

They aren't really a secret.

[Jody Thornton]

13 minutes ago, UCyborg said:

Indeed, though I find it curious that lack of 64-bit binaries bothers you, but not catering down to the lowest common denominator on the API level, which is the main thing with roytam1's programs.

Anyway, my suggestion would be Epyrus or SeaMonkey. They both come in 64-bit flavors and don't cater to ancient operating system versions. SeaMonkey is a full internet suite, so comes with web browser as well, though some are concerned about its future due to very small dev team and how they're diverging from Mozilla's platform. Epyrus would be to Pale Moon like what Thunderbird is to Firefox, it's developed by one of the people among Moonchild Productions crew. They say underlying platform code updates shouldn't play the big role when it comes to mail client (at least for now I think), so the core stuff should work OK even in older versions of whatever fork you end up using.

Thanks - mind you I have tried both Epyrus and SeaMonkey for quite awhile now.  I'm just not as big on their UI.  I really liked Tobin's interface for Interlink (which WAS an x64 build - why is it that everyone is curious about that?  I simply want 64-bit binaries for my x64 OS).  Anyway, I have been waiting for forever for Tobin to come out with an update, as he keeps saying he will.  I customize the UI with the Photonic theme and it really looks snazzy on Windows 8.

Again, I appreciate your chiming in.

[UCyborg]

I like Interlink's stock UI the most. though I could do with Epyrus with ClassicTB2 theme.

I just checked the latest version of Interlink, which I think is 52.9.8194. OAuth2 works with GMail, maybe it was another mail provider that works with roytam1's fork, but not official version. That makes Epyrus not working with it out-of-the-box even stranger. I must have read about another mail provider that Tobin couldn't get something for it to make Interlink work with it.

[Mathwiz]

On 11/5/2023 at 4:59 PM, Jody Thornton said:

I prefer to use an application natively, rather than through x86 emulation

This is a nitpick, but it's not x86 "emulation." Emulation is what you do when your CPU doesn't understand another CPU's instruction set: you use a program that reads the machine code written for the other CPU and does what the other CPU would have done, usually much more slowly. In contrast, the x64 processors do understand the x86 instruction set and execute x86 instructions natively, so x86 programs run at the same speed they would on a "true" x86 processor.

Of course it still won't be as fast as x64 code, because you're manipulating data 4 bytes at a time vs. 8. So there's still a speed penalty compared to a 64-bit app. (Plus, 32-bit code also has that pesky 4GB addressable RAM limit.) So I can understand why you generally prefer 64-bit apps, even if your terminology was a bit wrong.

OTOH, we're talking about an email client here, not an AI engine. How much RAM and speed could it need? Your preference for 64-bit apps is understandable, but I wouldn't make it into a religion.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Mathwiz

[Mathwiz]

20 hours ago, UCyborg said:

I just checked the latest version of Interlink, which I think is 52.9.8194. OAuth2 works with GMail, maybe it was another mail provider that works with roytam1's fork, but not official version.

I think that's news! AIUI when GMail announced the OAuth2 mandate, Tobin threw a fit and removed the early OAuth2 support he had written for Interlink. (Sort of understandable; since when did email providers get to require every email client developer to register their apps with them? Since Google, that's when.) @roytam1 kept it in his version, so there was a period when his version had (at least some) OAuth2 support but the official version didn't.

At any rate, it sounds like Tobin eventually relented. No matter what you think of Google, you aren't going to make any money with an email client that doesn't work with GMail. So I guess OAuth2 is no longer an advantage for Roytam's version.

[Jody Thornton]

23 hours ago, UCyborg said:

I like Interlink's stock UI the most. though I could do with Epyrus with ClassicTB2 theme.

I just checked the latest version of Interlink, which I think is 52.9.8194. OAuth2 works with GMail, maybe it was another mail provider that works with roytam1's fork, but not official version. That makes Epyrus not working with it out-of-the-box even stranger. I must have read about another mail provider that Tobin couldn't get something for it to make Interlink work with it.

MailNews IS based on Interlink.  That's why the BinOC reference is there, for Interlink (mail) and Borealis (browser).  I'm running MailNews for now, with the hopes that Tobin releases a new Interlink, so i may go back to it.

[Jody Thornton]

2 hours ago, Mathwiz said:

This is a nitpick, but it's not x86 "emulation."

Understood.  Just an incorrect choice of words on my part.

Of course it still won't be as fast as x64 code, ... Your preference for 64-bit apps is understandable, but I wouldn't make it into a religion.

Well the Linux community has no issue about leaving x86 behind.  I'm not making a religion out of it.  I just don't see the point of settling with an x86 build when in actual fact, x64 is de facto standard in 2023.  It seems as much as I'm supposedly being "religious" about it, many here are stubbornly resisting my idea  By the way, isn't there a 64-bit edition of XP too?  I would think many would like to run a 64-bit mail client there too.

I'm not trying to be smarmy.  It's just that when I make a reasonable ask, and I have to listen to all of the protest of my opinion, it gets fatiguing.  Nothing personal.  I've already accepted that I'll no longer ask for an x64 build of MailNews, so we're all good.

[UCyborg]

Guess it's sort of similar how some devs don't do x86 builds anymore, Microsoft also doesn't bother with x86 version of Windows 11 and since roytam1 targets old systems and there isn't much difference in practice when using email client in x86 or x64 flavor and since he builds other browsers/mail programs, he might have just opted to provide 32-bit build only since it'll work on both.

I'm still a hybrid, use some programs in 32-bit flavor and some in 64-bit flavor. There can be differences in favor of x86, older CPUs may be quirky. I find Pale Moon to be a bit more responsive in 32-bit flavor on my system. Somewhere it was mentioned less code will fit in CPU caches since x64 instructions are generally larger, so this could make a speed difference in certain scenarios in favor of x86.

Though I never went into deeper comparisons, I do remember several years ago, when I was experimenting with DarkPlaces engine that runs the old Quake I and other games, 32-bit build produced slightly higher frame-rate while 64-bit build loaded map and all resources a bit faster. I was using high-resolution textures obviously, can't make good comparison with the load for computers from the 90s. But differences were small, load time 2 seconds at most and with FPS, also a frame or two if I recall correctly. Though I don't remember the frame rates anymore...frame times are more interesting since difference between higher frame rates is much smaller than difference between lower frame rates.

On x64 Windows, there's always some extra work in the background for 32-bit applications, lookup WOW64. But when the code starts flowing and CPU is switched to 32-bit mode, it's as fast as CPU manages, until some system call/context switch.

[Mathwiz]

20 hours ago, Jody Thornton said:

many here are stubbornly resisting my idea

Actually I think @roytam1 should release a 64-bit build of MailNews. After all, as you said, Tobin releases 64-bit builds of Interlink, and modern hardware is all 64-bit nowadays. I think by the time you get to Win 11, there isn't even a 32-bit version of the OS available anymore.

It may be simply that there hasn't been any demand for a 64-bit build until now. After all, a lot of his followers are still running on old hardware, and very few folks are using the 64-bit version of Windows XP. But he does release many other builds in 64-bit versions, so you might just ask Roytam and see what he says.

I was just saying that, if a 32-bit program met my needs, I wouldn't let mere bitness stop me from using it! "It's perfect, and it runs fine on my system, but it's a 32-bit program, so I refuse!" That's where I would be getting a bit religious IMO.

[Jody Thornton]

25 minutes ago, Mathwiz said:

Actually I think @roytam1 should release a 64-bit build of MailNews. After all, as you said, Tobin releases 64-bit builds of Interlink, and modern hardware is all 64-bit nowadays. I think by the time you get to Win 11, there isn't even a 32-bit version of the OS available anymore.

It may be simply that there hasn't been any demand for a 64-bit build until now. After all, a lot of his followers are still running on old hardware, and very few folks are using the 64-bit version of Windows XP. But he does release many other builds in 64-bit versions, so you might just ask Roytam and see what he says.

I was just saying that, if a 32-bit program met my needs, I wouldn't let mere bitness stop me from using it! "It's perfect, and it runs fine on my system, but it's a 32-bit program, so I refuse!" That's where I would be getting a bit religious IMO.

I asked already (twice) - and he won't.

I am using it on Windows 8 Pro x64 now, as a 32-bit program.  I'm just hoping Tobin will re-emerge with an x64 build.

[Mathwiz]

Unfortunate. I would give it a try myself, but I have neither the equipment nor the expertise.

I expect Tobin will release an update eventually, and you'll have a 64-bit version then. But he's quite unpredictable as you know.