Browsing the web on 98/ME in 2019 and beyond

[siria]

Bruninho said:
> I need to figure out how to use Dependency Walker and understand its functions.

Well, personally my understanding is most simple: open any exe or dll file with it. If all dependencies are okay, lots of black text shows up. Great. If dependencies are broken, it will popup an error message and missing or faulty files are marked in red. Those may need a newer version, or are perhaps missing completely, but clicking them reveals more info.

Bruninho said:
> As for the browser, yes it's https pages that are crashing the browser. I remember that when
> I managed to make it work, I had added some NSS files by roytam1 for Fx10 (since
> SeaMonkey 2.7.2 is based on it). Now it just doesn't work anymore.

Uh oh... sounds like major trouble, if the browser immediately crashes instead of just showing normal error messages. Seems highly unusual? Perhaps newer NSS files help, but even then you'll still run occasionally into an odd site with missing certs and ciphers. But yes, it's probably a good idea to continue testing with an updated build.

Just remembered: the culprit may very well just be Firefox10 in Win98! I was assuming that Kex24 were now lightyears ahead of old basic Kex, but perhaps not in this case. Firefox9 is a lot more stable.
What I'm especially curious about is how KM-Goanna74 (FF24) runs in your "most modern" kernelex...
In my older v16 it's very buggy and crashy, for example when first loading a local page and then from web, or vice versa.

Edited March 10, 2020 by siria

[Bruninho]

27 minutes ago, siria said:

Bruninho said:
> I need to figure out how to use Dependency Walker and understand its functions.

Well, personally my understanding is most simple: open any exe or dll file with it. If all dependencies are okay, lots of black text shows up. Great. If dependencies are broken, it will popup an error message and missing or faulty files are marked in red. Those may need a newer version, or are perhaps missing completely, but clicking them reveals more info.

Bruninho said:
> As for the browser, yes it's https pages that are crashing the browser. I remember that when
> I managed to make it work, I had added some NSS files by roytam1 for Fx10 (since
> SeaMonkey 2.7.2 is based on it). Now it just doesn't work anymore.

Uh oh... sounds like major trouble, if the browser immediately crashes instead of just showing normal error messages. Seems highly unusual? Perhaps newer NSS files help, but even then you'll still run occasionally into an odd site with missing certs and ciphers. But yes, it's probably a good idea to continue testing with an updated build.

Just remembered: the culprit may very well just be Firefox10 in Win98! I was assuming that Kex24 were now lightyears ahead of old basic Kex, but perhaps not in this case. Firefox9 is a lot more stable.
What I'm especially curious about is how KM-Goanna74 (FF24) runs in your "most modern" kernelex...
In my older v16 it's very buggy and crashy, for example when first loading a local page and then from web, or vice versa.

Here's what I have tested:

KernelEx 4.5.2, no updates - Both SeaMonkey 2.6.1 and 2.7.2 loads and work fine and go to the default page on load, with the NSS updates provided in this topic. 2.6.1 is based on Fx9, and 2.72 on Fx10. I think I could load msfn forums and other forums such as vogons.

Now, KernelEx with the updates provided by the blog I mentioned before - Both SeaMonkey versions load and go to the default page (seamonkey's project page), but even with the very same NSS updates it can no longer connect to any HTTPS sites. Whenever I try to load google.com the browser immediately crashes. I tried going to cnn's light version for low bandwidth users, and it loaded. This link is not a https site.

Something in the kernelex update broke it. I can try KM Goanna 74 and return to you in a few minutes. But I suspect that it will fail. Meanwhile, I tried Opera 12.02, works better but no youtube and I cannot load vogons forums because some cipher suite is missing.

Next I might go back to KernelEx 4.5.2 and try again to see if my tests are correct.

[Bruninho]

Just tried KM74 Goanna and it is still unreliable and requires JS disabled. Browser UI is messed up big time.

Reverted back to default KernelEx 4.5.2. Tried both SeaMonkey versions again. I'm now confused. Same result as with an updated KernelEx. Strange... It was never working ? What? Confused. Also tried Fx9, fail.

So, AFAIK we are stuck with Opera 12.02, RetroZilla 2.2 and a Netscape 9.0.0.6 with updated NSS files from Roytam1. None of them can render most sites properly or play YouTube videos. *sighs*

EDIT: I still have snapshots. I can go back to the 1st snapshot right after installing and updating Win98. And redo the steps to see what I did wrong. But that’s a thing for another night. Its 1:33 AM here. Good night!

Edited March 10, 2020 by Bruninho

[Goodmaneuver]

I know that Opera 12 does not load DirectX in Virtual Machine. If you load the Google search in Opera first then close Opera then Google search will work in Mozilla otherwise use Yahoo search engine as it is only the search engine that plays up not HTTPS sites in particular. I do not get the font error in the GUI but it will happen if USP10 is not working. USP10 usually needs KEX dissabed. Win2K is not good for retro gaming see here https://msfn.org/board/topic/130936-kernelex-452/?do=findComment&comment=1160623 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Goodmaneuver

[Bruninho]

Well I do not like XP and higher versions. I prefer 98 or 2000. I used 2000 a lot years ago before moving to XP (a move which I regret so much). So I did three VMs:

- MSDOS 6.22 & Win 3.11 for old games

- Win 98SE as a test for now

- Win 2000 Professional with the games I played most in the past, and it’s working very well: FIFA 99, GP4, Need For Speed, Flight Simulator 98, Full Throttle... Even browsing works 100% with 2nd latest SeaMonkey.

I will try again with your Opera trick when I get time to redo things from a fresh Win98 snapshot I saved after OS install & updates. Thanks God I did save it...

I still cannot see where is USP10, sorry for my ignorance about that one in particular.

I will try to see these things this night. Good morning, people!

[Goodmaneuver]

USP10.dll should be in the system folder. Originally NT based operating systems were not the best for games, they will not play Extreme G2 for example.

[jumper]

The default mode has changed.  Manually set it to Windows 2000 for apps that worked with 4.5.2.

 

[Bruninho]

I created a new snapshot with KernelEx 4.5.2, so the VM has now 3 snapshots:

- 1st: Windows 98 fresh install with all drivers & vmware tools. No patches or software installed.
- 2nd: KernelEx 4.5.2 installed with no updates.
- 3rd: KernelEx with the updates.

Now I can try or test something and roll back when I want. I will now proceed to do 1 or 2 test with Opera & SeaMonkey before I go to bed now... again its too late. Cya!

[Bruninho]

12 hours ago, Goodmaneuver said:

USP10.dll should be in the system folder. Originally NT based operating systems were not the best for games, they will not play Extreme G2 for example.

It's there, yet SeaMonkey 2.6.1 still shows the wrong font for the browser user interface & dialogs. I also have installed unicows.

@siria, I tried again with KernelEx 4.5.2 without updates. Opera 12.02 I can see https google.com. But Opera UI has some strange quirks - the dropdown for the address bar shows a black border instead of a box shadow? And I still cannot log in to vogons forums since it requires some missing cipher suites. These ciphers does exist in a newer Retrozilla 2.2 from roytam1 and also the NSS updates for Netscape 9.0.0.6, also from roytam1, both can let me log in there and also on msfn forums. I have even enabled TLS 1.2 from Opera settings.

SeaMonkey 2.6.1 still crashes whenever I try to load any https sites - first one I tried was google.com and it crashed. I tried with and without the NSS files provided above for CometBird 9 since both browsers are based on Fx9. No luck. I left Opera 12.02 installed for now until the next moment I have free time to try new things.

[siria]

@Bruninho:
can you post a screenshot of your probs, especially that menu font stuff?
I keep suspecting that either your KernelEx compat setting on the browser exe may be culprit, or else some missing VisualC-VS-Msvc...thingee files.

While you're at basic KernelEx again, would create a bunch of new browser profiles with it, for various browsers and engine generations, to later copy over to newer KernelEx again. Just in case. But first necessary to open httpS-sites with those browsers with OLD KernelEx, to create the necessary 3 new files (in gecko key3.db, cert8.db, secmod.db)
When using the profilemanager it's quite easy to create several parallel profiles, at startup a menu will show up to choose one or create new ones. Not sure which commandline, but alternatively can be switched on in profiles.ini too, line "StartWithLastProfile=0"

If Opera is missing ciphers, and FF9 also has probs, would perhaps try next roytam's fx36 - Firefox 3.6. It even comes with a build-in profile already, but this only gets used when started with the contained bat file.

By the way roytams TLS for Netscape9 also works in K-Meleon1.6 (era FF3.5)
KernelEx compat must be set to XP.
Not sure if of interest to you, it's quite quirky and most people prefer Firefox. Just taking the opportunity for some general hints if anyone interested, now or later. One of the catches is that the last official version on the homepage is only beta2, which is even older as later community updates. They had updated the engine to its last gecko sub-version, and fixed some other things, but those downloads are now broken too. The most important (partial) update, still by main dev, and luckily still available, seems to have been posted ONLY here, very well hidden:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?1,122806 (at the bottom of the page, last link)
http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/files/KMeleon1.6.7z
And of course roytams new TLS1.2 ciphers recently!
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?2,151536,151817#msg-151817
http://o.rths.ml/gpc/files1.rt/ns9-nss-update.7z
Attention: sqlite3.dll must be removed from this zip in K-Meleon, it must keep the old original file or crash!
(almost forgot, but thinking about... probably in Firefox/SM too??)
Hmm... and IIRC way back then KM1.6 was actually rather tricky to install too. Major struggle - or well possible I just confuse that now with the first alpha versions?? Not sure anymore. In the beginning was missing again some pesky msvc... file (and of course meanwhile its download link to MS on the KM-homepage is broken too, sigh. There are alternative smaller VisualC packages linked somewhere, would have to search around, but probably not necessary) And after the last community engine update my system had kept crashing the browser with an error message for imglib2.dll, had to replace that with an older version again (2011-06-24) Oh well.
Another K-Meleon trap is that SourceForge (we suspect) is blocking KM-Forum access for all users with "Win98" in the useragent string!! To make things worse, they only show a completely cryptic error message, some nonsense with "pull a ticket to help yourself".... But it's really just the useragent, which can be faked.

[Goodmaneuver]

 

Opera needs a Win2K setting and I use do not use in child process as if loading programs from within the browser you do not want all programs to run with Win2K, examples are Acrobat Reader, MP4 files etcetera. If you do not have Opera set to a 2K setting then the menu does not work. I have it set to Windows 2000 SP4 (Multi-Threaded) in this build I am replying with now. BTW I did not need to log in when changing drives just now.

Bruninho: The black border, I think it is designed that way. It is a luxury to have the tab preview. The little white arrow at the top is nearly as thick as the border. SM2.6 HTTPS crash; did you try going through Bing or Yahoo search to a encrypted site? US Yahoo last time I checked was unencrypted but au.yahoo.com is. Server settings can be different in each country.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Goodmaneuver

[Goodmaneuver]

 

Important: I have made a mistake, sorry everyone, I assumed and did not follow Jumpers instructions correctly. I have uploaded the Core.ini to Jumpers specifications. The only consequences would be if using Win95 setting even then may not make a difference to original upload.

Jumper, please explain how the default mode has changed, do you mean DCFG1?
 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Goodmaneuver

[Bruninho]

@siria: Sure, I can do a screenshot later of both Opera and SeaMonkey issues. I have Visual C++ redist installed too.

I'll try next Fx3.6, and K-Meleon 1.6. Fx9 might work - I haven't tried that one, just browsers based on it (SeaMonkey 2.6.1). 

@Goodmaneuver: Thanks, I'll check tonight my Opera KEX settings. As for the HTTPS errors: I believe it is related to any https website not just Google. But I'll try Bing and Yahoo too. @DosFreak at vogons forums pointed out that this version of Opera does not have the ciphers that vogons forums requires, and the only way would be getting the leaked source and add the ciphers, or use a proxy.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bruninho

[Goodmaneuver]

I should have said "I know that you have discovered that DirectX does not load in Virtual Machine but ....". I do not know why this would be the case.

If DDhelp.exe is not running then program menus can be not displayed properly. Bruninho, can you test some games on VM because perhaps the menu not displaying in Mozilla could still be related to having no direct draw. Video card memory could also be the blame for this phenomenon. I ran everything flat out years ago on a card that was not fully working to play DVDs on a AMD K6 machine. Eventually the menus were just straight lines. The card was not full bus toggling though if you understand what I am taking about.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Goodmaneuver

[Bruninho]

2 hours ago, Goodmaneuver said:

I should have said "I know that you have discovered that DirectX does not load in Virtual Machine but ....". I do not know why this would be the case.

If DDhelp.exe is not running then program menus can be not displayed properly. Bruninho, can you test some games on VM because perhaps the menu not displaying in Mozilla could still be related to having no direct draw. Video card memory could also be the blame for this phenomenon. I ran everything flat out years ago on a card that was not fully working to play DVDs on a AMD K6 machine. Eventually the menus were just straight lines. The card was not full bus toggling though if you understand what I am taking about.

I think that there is probably a misunderstanding. Menus on SeaMonkey 2.6.1 are displayed and working as usual, what I am saying is that the font family used by the menus are wrong and different from the System wide font family used by Windows. I can read and use them normally, just the font family is wrong - plus some options have a little bar similar to a cursor at the end of their text. Meanwhile HTTPS browsing is not working (only in Opera 12.02, all but except some forums).

I've had the same font issue with Fx 9 and Fx 10.

For comparison, other apps like WinZip and 7-Zip display the correct System font. Probably if I decide to use the last version of SeaMonkey officially supported and listed on KernelEx Wiki page, the font family would be correct. In Opera 12.02 the font family is correct too.

In a few hours I'll be at home to take the screenshots and everything will be explained.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bruninho