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why dont modern apps work without UAC?

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Modern Apps work just fine set with the slider bar set all the way down.  But if you turn it completely off with registry edit you are f***ed!

 

screenshot_14.png

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is there a difference between having the bar down and it "completely off"?

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is there a difference between having the bar down and it "completely off"?

There seems to be,  UAC with the bar down, is just NOT NOTIFY.  Completely off is OFF.  But, with the bar down, since I don't get notifications, so far as I can tell it is OFF for me, but everything still WORKS.  With it is turned totally off with registry, I am LIMITED in what I can do with the OS.  I choose NOT to be limited.

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Metro/Modern toys don't run with EnableLUA set to 0.  It is an arbitrary limitation imposed by Microsoft.  I would consider not being able to run such software a personal limitation IF I were to find even one App that does something I need or want to do.

 

With the UAC slider to the bottom in Win 8 and newer UAC is still on you are still running with diminished privileges, and escalation has to happen for anything that you do requiring privilege.  This is different than in Win 7, where dragging the slider to the bottom meant completely disabling the UAC add-on baloney.

 

Unfortunately, it isn't true that it will never prompt with the slider pulled all the way down.  There are some things it still prompts for, and some other things that it just refuses to do.  Some need to do those things.  If it's something where the system hassles you continually for trying to do what you normally need to do, UAC is a fail, plain and simple.  Just because one person hasn't seen "Can't create a shortcut there, would you like to put it on the desktop instead?" or "Access Denied" when you've neglected to start an application "As Administrator", doesn't mean others don't see it.

 

Add to that the fact that with UAC on some file system and registry operations are magically redirected to other places.  Seriously - it's called file system and registry virtualization.  I choose not to have my system try to sneak around behind my back and do different things than what I tell it to do.

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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Metro/Modern toys don't run with EnableLUA set to 0.

 

With the UAC slider to the bottom in Win 8 and newer you are still running with diminished privileges, and escalation has to happen for anything that you do requiring privilege.  This is different than in Win 7, where dragging the slider to the bottom meant completely disabling the UAC add-on baloney.

 

Unfortunately, it isn't true that it will never prompt with the slider pulled all the way down.  There are some things it still prompts for, and some other things that it just refuses to do.  Some need to do those things.  If it's something where the system hassles you continually for trying to do what you normally need to do, UAC is a fail, plain and simple.  Just because one person hasn't seen "Can't create a shortcut there, would you like to put it on the desktop instead?" or "Access Denied" when you've neglected to start an application "As Administrator", doesn't mean others don't see it.

 

Add to that the fact that with UAC on some file system and registry operations are magically redirected to other places.  Seriously - it's called file system and registry virtualization.  I choose not to have my system try to sneak around behind my back and do different things than what I tell it to do.

 

-Noel

I prefer not to be hobbled by turning it off.  If I want to run a modern app, I want to run a modern app.  I don't want to be told I can't do so.  Turning UAC completely off renders my entire OS completely useless.  If you want to be really hobbled go to OSX or Linux, where every operation requires a user password.

Edited by dhjohns

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Turning UAC completely off renders my entire OS completely useless.

 

I guess it depends on what you consider "useless".  Despite Microsoft's best hopes, business does not need Metro/Modern Apps so far.

 

As one who has run Win 8.1 quite successfully for years with UAC off, I find the inability to run Metro/Modern toys no big deal, as there is nothing in that realm I have needed or wanted.  Beyond that one (admittedly obvious) limitation, I have no problem doing anything else.  Most of that experience applies to Win 10, with some exceptions.

 

Right now, with the pre-release builds we have in hand, I agree that it's probably not viable to try to run Win 10 with EnableLUA set to 0.  With Win 10 more parts of the system are being ported to XAML / UWP and Microsoft is (mistakenly?) causing some things that really shouldn't to fall under the "UAC must be enabled" umbrella.  I believe most of these things will be fixed by the time of release.  Don't forget, there is still the fact that business IT people need to be privileged.

 

This one single issue will likely keep me from upgrading to Win 10 until well after initial RTM.  Then they will see the light, heed the need, and make the changes necessary for business to once again love the latest version of Windows.

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC

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Do you remember all the complaints when Windows XP came out?  How MS was screwing up the OS, XP would break your computer, It was a Fisher-Price OS, and no one would use it?

 

I think businesses will figure things out!  LOL  They always do.

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I agree, things always seem to change for the better.  But don't forget that Microsoft is making that harder than ever (continuous rollouts don't a stable working environment or easily modified system make).

 

Frankly I didn't complain about XP.  It came out right at a time when I needed all of what it offered and then some.  I don't know who you found complaining, but XP was serious right out of the box.  One had to reconfigure only a few choice things.  I had a few files in which I kept notes about doing this.

 

I complained about Win 7 some - just the features that were being broken and the things Microsoft didn't bother to fix (and for which workarounds were later invented by 3rd party developers).  Some things were later fixed, and yes, workarounds and tweaks were developed.  So many things had to be addressed I wrote a whole book on doing it.

 

I complained about Win 8 more - because nothing useful was being added, just this toy interface.  I also pointed out the things they newly broke and still didn't fix.  I skipped Win 8.0 because it wasn't tolerable and just stayed on 7.  By Win 8.1 Microsoft hadn't really improved it too much, but by then 3rd party developers like Ivo Beltchev and our own Big Muscle here had created quite usable workarounds for the real problems.  The book got 30% thicker just to make Win 8.1 into something as useful or better than a well-tuned Win 7.

 

Here we have Win 10.  Much more of the same backsliding that plagued Win 8, with virtually nothing of substance being added, save for the intangible benefit of "keeping current".  So far, I've got a LOT of book additions, and a few unfortunate deletions for tweaks that don't yet work.

 

But I agree, after the dust settles on the RTM, assuming they get enough geeks to upgrade (which is probably inevitable since they're advancing gaming with the system), there will be plenty of tweaks discovered, 3rd party tools written, and we may well look back and say, "it was a shaky start, but it's better now".

 

-Noel

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But I agree, after the dust settles on the RTM, assuming they get enough geeks to upgrade (which is probably inevitable since they're advancing gaming with the system), there will be plenty of tweaks discovered, 3rd party tools written, and we may well look back and say, "it was a shaky start, but it's better now".

Well, one thing is sure, noone (if not the MS good guys themselves) will ever be able to find  a way to make it worse. ;)

 

jaclaz

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With the UAC slider to the bottom in Win 8 and newer UAC is still on you are still running with diminished privileges, and escalation has to happen for anything that you do requiring privilege.  This is different than in Win 7, where dragging the slider to the bottom meant completely disabling the UAC add-on baloney.

 

okay now it makes sense, I used W7 for a long time b4 going to w8 so I never knew there was a difference, metaphorically speaking with the UAC you have a locked door leading to the admin rights with the yes button being the "key" for that door. in Win7 when you say leave me alone, it's going to open that door letting anything through, while in win8 the door will "just" be unlocked, meaning you will still have to push the handle (aka request admin rights) is that right?

 

So many things had to be addressed I wrote a whole book on doing it.

 

The book got 30% thicker just to make Win 8.1 into something as useful or better than a well-tuned Win 7.

I really think I wanna read that book...

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Hey folks, new to these forums but not to glass.

10 Just updated from 10074 to 10130 the other night (finally, it has failed several times before)...

Glass says it doesn't understand how to hook into my operating system.

I also can't overwrite any of the in-use files in C:\AeroGlass . A stumper.

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Hey folks, new to these forums but not to glass.

10 Just updated from 10074 to 10130 the other night (finally, it has failed several times before)...

Glass says it doesn't understand how to hook into my operating system.

I also can't overwrite any of the in-use files in C:\AeroGlass . A stumper.

 

Go to task manager.  When it opens make sure you have clicked "More Details."  Then in the tabs across the top click the "Details" tab.  End Process Tree for aerohost.exe, and then dwm.exe.  This is done by right-clicking on each one, and selecting "end process tree."

 

Now you can copy files into C:\AeroGlass.  Restart.

Edited by dhjohns

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Hey folks, new to these forums but not to glass.

10 Just updated from 10074 to 10130 the other night (finally, it has failed several times before)...

Glass says it doesn't understand how to hook into my operating system.

I also can't overwrite any of the in-use files in C:\AeroGlass . A stumper.

 

Aero Glass doesn't work with build 10130 yet.  Maybe it will if Microsoft puts the debug symbols online, but as of earlier today they hadn't done so.

 

-Noel

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Hey folks, new to these forums but not to glass.

10 Just updated from 10074 to 10130 the other night (finally, it has failed several times before)...

Glass says it doesn't understand how to hook into my operating system.

I also can't overwrite any of the in-use files in C:\AeroGlass . A stumper.

 

Go to task manager.  When it opens make sure you have clicked "More Details."  Then in the tabs across the top click the "Details" tab.  End Process Tree for aerohost.exe, and then dwm.exe.  This is done by right-clicking on each one, and selecting "end process tree."

 

Now you can copy files into C:\AeroGlass.  Restart.

 

 

Welp, that at least allowed me to copy over stuff from the 10074-64 folder... so thank you for that, I'll keep that for future reference.... though...

 

....

 

Aero Glass doesn't work with build 10130 yet.  Maybe it will if Microsoft puts the debug symbols online, but as of earlier today they hadn't done so.

 

-Noel

 

...Glass indeed doesn't work (at least for me) on 10130. hopefully soon :)

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