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BFG nVIDIA GeForce 7800GS OC on Win98


Feamane

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That's a good question.  CPU-Z and HWINFO both show the CPU running at 266MHz x 12.5 = 3333MHz.  HWINFO shows the "FSB" to be 266MHz, but that's the system clock, isn't it?

There is no physical jumper on the board to set FSB.  In the BIOS, I tried changing the CPU Host Frequency from Auto to 333, but the system wouldn't boot, had to clear the CMOS.  In any event, the CPU Host Frequency setting can only be set from 90 to 340, so that doesn't seem to the the FSB speed.  The FSB speed must be set by a multiplier, but I don't see any other settings in the BIOS to configure this.

CPU-Z and HWINFO were both showing the RAM to be running at 266MHz, I have had it set at 333MHz for a while now, so the benchmarks reported above reflect the memory being set at the proper speed.

Thanks,

DJ

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Another clue, if I set AGP 4x and turn off Fast Writes in the BIOS I get the same 3DMark03 score as when I have AGP 8x and Fast Writes on in the BIOS.  So it does seem like the AGP Settings tab in the NVIDIA Display Control Panel is telling the truth when it reports that the "OS" can't support AGP 8x and Fast Writes.  The question is what driver or component is causing the problem.

Thanks,

DJ

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I double checked with HWINFO and it is reporting the system clock is 266, the CPU is running at 266 x 12.5 = 3333, and the RAM is running at 266 x 1.25 = 333 (I have DDR2-800 in it but the max supported by the MB is DDR2-667, so I could try tighter memory timings later but right now I'm just sticking to the SPD).  So I think all is good with the clock rates.  For fun I tried manually setting the system clock to 333, but the system wouldn't boot so had to clear the CMOS.  So I believe the CPU and RAM are both running at the proper speeds.

The real question is why I get the same 3DMark03 scores with either 4x or 8x, and Fast Writes off or on.

Now this is interesting though-- HWINFO shows the GPU running at 275MHz, but the NVIDIA Display Control Panel shows it running at the correct 400MHz.  I have to figure out if one of them is lying to me!

Thanks,

DJ

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I now have the GPU reporting the correct speed of 400MHz on both HWINFO and the NVIDIA Display Control Panel.  I changed the BIOS setting AGP/PCI Clock from Auto to 66 / 33 MHz.  Still got the same score on 3DMark03 however.  :(

Regards,

DJ

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On 9/30/2020 at 12:17 PM, Feamane said:

So it does seem like the AGP Settings tab in the NVIDIA Display Control Panel is telling the truth when it reports that the "OS" can't support AGP 8x and Fast Writes.

It could be due to the video card, try a different card perhaps an ATI card but be aware of ATI2CQAG.dl_ https://msfn.org/board/topic/179556-looking-for-ati-xpert-128-gl-pci-biosrom-for-pc/?do=findComment&comment=1180280 Try your cards in a modern OS and see how they perform but be aware of this https://msfn.org/board/topic/175188-ati-widescreen-support-for-win9x/?do=findComment&comment=1157246 and https://msfn.org/board/topic/178240-winxpz170z370-mb-google-chrome-firefox-opera-dont-respond-on-user-actions-games-microfreezes/?do=findComment&comment=1174797

You are finding out that the AGP port has ample throughput for the very best of cards.

3 hours ago, Feamane said:

I now have the GPU reporting the correct speed of 400MHz

The nVidia can be getting better.

Schwups did not say what bench was used I think it would be 3Dmark01 but it would be good to clarify that. My 3dmark03 bench results https://msfn.org/board/topic/178283-how-you-really-browse-the-web-on-98me-in-2019/?do=findComment&comment=1168646. Some comments are out of date Cstore may have been coincidental.

It is extraordinarily difficult to get a good video card. When you boot up with nVidia the blinking cursor flashes twice as fast as that of an ATI card. If you intend to try some games then Glory of the Roman Empire will probably not show shadows correctly with nVidia but this is just the card not fully functioning. I have it fully functioning with Quadro 3000 - FX5900 Ultra it was not at first though. Best to read this I guess, I had no Fraps. https://msfn.org/board/topic/178142-screen-icons-refresh-when-opening-explorer-browsing-drive/?do=findComment&comment=1159233 The icons refreshing is the RAM address re-assignment I think - It will happen on Win10 as well if RAM is not 100%. If hardware share the same chip then they can affect each other by momentarily dipping the supply voltage to that chip for example. If your operating system does refresh the video when required then it is healthy. I found this from my WinME experience. A good game to help nVidia I found is the Settlers 5 Heritage of Kings.

Edited by Goodmaneuver
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Ya, you are getting three times as much on 3DMark03 as I am (~15000 vs. 5000).  On just the CPU tests I get a score of 277, you got 728--that doesn't seem right for Pentium Dual-Core E6800 3330MHz 2MB cache, 2GB DDR2-667MHz, GeForce 7800GS OC 256MB AGP.

The only other cards I have are several GeForce 6800 AGP that I mentioned testing above that I get roughly the same scores with.

I may try installing XP just to divide and conquer between being a hardware/BIOS problem or a problem with my Win98 install.

Regards,

DJ

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There is a possibility of a NorthBridge problem. If you have a processor that operates on a lower FSB speed like a Celeron which works on 533 then this is also worth trying. Also try setting BIOS settings low to try and get the chip working properly. I had a temporary heat sink on the reverse side chip of an ATI 4670 1G card but I forgot to plug the fan for the temporary heat sink in or it was not spinning. The reverse side chip became very hot and frame rate halved. I shut the machine down but it may not have been the best decision as the frame rate was bouncing back up to proper speed and halving. I was an Intel processor board with VIA 900 chipset. The AGP never recovered again no matter how hard I tried always halve the proper speed no matter what card was chosen. The game - FIFA10 frame rate - locked to sync which was 50hz fairly sure - halved to 25. Could have been 60 to 30 though and OS was Vista. What happen after the event is the processor got a lot hotter than it should which indicates that some of its outputs were not toggling.

Edited by Goodmaneuver
removed link because it was not that relevant
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In post #14 when I said I upgraded the CPU, I actually swapped out the motherboard for another one with a different CPU on it.  I have two different motherboards I want to make two Win98 rigs out of, and am just using one case and PSU to try to get things worked out in first.  The two different motherboards are:

NEW#1
ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 R2.0 (VIA PT880 Pro/Ultra)
Via 4in1_4.56 & Pro5.11A driver sets (also tried the Via Pro5.15A AGP driver)
Pentium Dual-Core E5300 2600MHz (800MHz FSB)
1GB PC2-5300 DDR2-667
SATA SSD (with RLoew's ATA0104A) 99MB/s avg. throughput speed according to DiskSpeed32
BFG nVIDIA GeForce 7800GS OC 256MB with Maximus-Decim's nVIDIA 82.69 Version 1.03
--Also tried ASUS nVIDIA GeForce 7600GS 256MB but can't get the drivers to work with this on Win98
DirectX 9.0c
3DMark03 score 4775  :thumbdown

NEW#2
ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 R2.0 (VIA PT880 Pro/Ultra)
Via 4in1_4.56, Pro5.11A, Pro5.15A, & Pro5.24A driver sets (tried them all, no difference)
Pentium Dual-Core E6800 3330MHz (1066MHz FSB)
2GB DDR2-800MHz PC2-6400 (with RLoew's PATCHMEM)
SATA SSD (with RLoew's ATA0104A) 99MB/s avg. throughput speed according to DiskSpeed32
BFG nVIDIA GeForce 7800GS OC 256MB with Maximus-Decim's nVIDIA 82.69 Version 1.03
--Also tried eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 128MB with nVIDIA 81.98 drivers (3dMark03 score of 5753)
DirectX 9.0c
3DMark03 score 5020  :realmad:

The two "old" rigs I want to replace are both:
OLD
ASRock 775V88 (VIA PT880)
Via 4.56 driver set
Pentium 4 550 3400MHz LGA775
512MB PC3200 DDR400
SATA HDD 66MB/s avg. throughput speed according to DiskSpeed32
eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800 128MB
nVIDIA 81.98
DirectX 9.0c
3DMark03 score 7432  :}

I also swapped out the PSU for a brand new 700W unit, just in case the old 750W unit had a problem, but same results and I have no reason to suspect either PSU is bad, just tried to eliminate a possibility.

So, at this point I don't think it's a hardware issue, but I think I will install XP just to test that theory.  That would also help me determine if there is something wrong with the 7800GS.

I really think the fact that NVIDIA Display Control Panel is showing that the OS is only supporting AGP 4x and no Fast Writes is the best clue of what the problem is--and I think that was confirmed when I set the BIOS to AGP 4x and Fast Writes off and got the same 3DMark03 scores.  I have been searching like crazy for information about this but have not found anything concrete yet.  Does anybody else have GeForce AGP cards installed under Win98 and can merge in the Coolbits.reg to see if you get the same information from the AGP tab in the NVIDIA Display Control Panel?

Regards,
DJ

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Well, I did the deed.  Felt kinda dirty installing XP, kept telling myself: "it's only to test...."

3DMark03 score 14436

Everything the same, except XP SP3, Via Pro5.24A, and nVIDIA 94.24 drivers needed to make it work with XP.  Same hardware, same BIOS settings, same DirectX 9.0c.  That score can probably be improved with some tuning of XP.

Now I'm faced with the dilemma if I should give up my twenty-two year quest to keep using Win98 and force myself to learn how to customize and live with XP?  I have it set up so all my machines can install Win98 booting and installing over the network with no media, all the correct drivers are installed based on the MAC address of the machine.  Not sure if/how I can do all that with XP.  I guess I'll have to start testing my favorite games and see if they will run on XP.

Regards,
DJ

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XP has the added bonus of 32bit driver system with the ability to use 16bit so that hardware problems can be routed around. This is my take on the situation and might be wrong. Typical example is the card that will not load drivers in 98 but does in XP. It is a shame but if all mother boards have been used with the same card then they all could be suffering the same infliction. Once again my take. At the same token I do not use 98 but use ME and OS native VXDs are not compatible. If you try a 64bit VISTA for example and see if it will install this tests your hardware better. For example CPU faults can not be there otherwise 32bit can only install though will most likely occur with single core products.

Edited by Goodmaneuver
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22 hours ago, deomsh said:

What about the 77.72 drivers? Should work with a GF6800.

I don't know, if I install Win98 again I will try them.  But that would put me back on the GeForce 6800 cards only and I really was hoping to get the 7600 & 7800 working on these two rigs with Win98.

It's frustrating that people have gotten this motherboard to work well with Win98 (I see several listed in the >1GB thread), and people have reported getting the 7x00 series cards working with Win98 and have reported very nice 3DMark scores.  But while I can get them working, my scores suck.  Then I pop in XP and the scores are just what I would like to see with Win98.

Thanks,

DJ

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2 hours ago, Goodmaneuver said:

XP has the added bonus of 32bit driver system with the ability to use 16bit so that hardware problems can be routed around. This is my take on the situation and might be wrong. Typical example is the card that will not load drivers in 98 but does in XP. It is a shame but if all mother boards have been used with the same card then they all could be suffering the same infliction. Once again my take. At the same token I do not use 98 but use ME and OS native VXDs are not compatible. If you try a 64bit VISTA for example and see if it will install this tests your hardware better. For example CPU faults can not be there otherwise 32bit can only install though will most likely occur with single core products.

Not sure I exactly follow you, are you thinking both motherboards/CPUs/sets of RAM are defective in the same way?  I was wondering if the specific combination of the MB and GPU were incompatible as far as speed goes, but the scores I'm getting on XP would seem to disprove that.  I can understand it that XP might be masking a problem because the MB and GPU are working together, but the fact I get such a good score on XP compared to the same rig on Win98 shows that they are not just limping along together but are working well.  If it's a 16bit vs. 32bit problem doesn't that seem much more likely to be a driver issue than a hardware one?  It's not like the rig is crashing or anything under either Win98 or XP, I've not had any problems at all with stability.  It's just that the performance sucks on Win98 compared to XP.

I might just have to go with XP and figure out how to really customize it, slim it down, and get all the old games running on it.  A lot of work, but it might be better in the long run.

I would love to hear more details from people who have reported getting great 3DMark scores with this hardware under Win98 as far as what drivers and settings they are using.  Since a number of people used this MB in the >1GB thread I wonder if those were working systems or not, what GPUs and drivers they used, and what kind of performance they got.

Thanks,

DJ

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5 hours ago, Feamane said:

But that would put me back on the GeForce 6800 cards only and I really was hoping to get the 7600 & 7800 working on these two rigs with Win98.

Of cause, but my idea was IF the 77.72 driver gave better performance than with the 8x.xx drivers (both for your 6800), it could be worthwile to 'dig deeper' with the 7xxx AGP cards on Win98 regarding drivers /Registry. :cool:

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