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theulticobia

Question on What to Update W98 With

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I have no experience with P4 but I use an Opteron 154 (equivalent to Athlon 64 FX-57)  since many years now and never felt there was any kind of problem with it.
 

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Posted (edited)

Actually one of my earlier posts about RAM; it's PC133 SDRAM is best about Pentium III I apologize have edited post. (not DDR)

I will happily to benchmark comparisons with anyone with the preferred benchmark tools to see what we all actually have I think this would tell people what really is best for windows 9x. My stuff will win why? because if it was as big; my ego would reach da moon!

 

dcnb93z-bbc0b77c-ef4d-47a4-922f-f3330cc0a15b.jpg

Edited by ZaPbUzZ

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ZaPbUzZ said:

I will happily to benchmark comparisons with anyone with the preferred benchmark tools to see what we all actually have I think this would tell people what really is best for windows 9x. My stuff will win why? because if it was as big; my ego would reach da moon!

How does this tool sound? CrystalMark 2004 R1, the last version to support 95/98/Me/NT4. I use the current 2004 R7 to bench Windows 2000 sometimes. Measures HDD, RAM, ALU, FPU, GDI, OpenGL and DirectDraw (referred to as D2D) performance.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070409095440/http://crystalmark.info/download/CrystalMark09.zip

I use a ThinkPad T41 with a Pentium M 1.6 GHz, 1x 512 MB PC2700 DDR RAM, an ATi Mobility Radeon 7500 32MB, and a 5400 RPM 40 GB HDD to run 98SE.

The Pentium M is a continuation of the Pentium III series, but at higher clocks and with SSE2. Unfortunately they are almost non-existent on the desktop and need an adapter to work with socket 478.

Since the OP is aiming towards a desktop solution, some of this stuff is out of consideration, but the desktop cards will certainly beat my mobile card which ran SimCity 4 with six-figure pop cities good, as well as Mall Tycoon 3 (2005). I will stress that PC2700 DDR RAM is certainly superior to PC133 though, as all of the benchmark entries in Everest Home Edition 2.20 for PC2700 are higher than for PC133, including my system. I do think that most Socket 478 boards are capable of using DDR (mine uses PC2700, though it's currently out of order so I won't be testing it).

The thing is that the Pentium III topped out at about 1.5 GHz and then you had the P4s going well above 3.0 GHz. Not as efficient but I think with the PC2700 DDR and the higher clocks, you will be ahead with the P4 (I believe the tipping point is 2-2.2 GHz). I used a 3.0 GHz Prescott machine that ran almost constantly from 2004 to 2016 (it did run 98SE early on, and then it ran folding stuff in the later years) so I think that they can certainly take a bit of stress.

By the way, I get an ALU score of 5546, FPU score of 6812 and a MEM score of 2719 on my laptop with CrystalMark.

 

Edited by win32

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Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2020 at 3:23 PM, win32 said:

How does this tool sound? CrystalMark 2004 R1, the last version to support 95/98/Me/NT4. I use the current 2004 R7 to bench Windows 2000 sometimes. Measures HDD, RAM, ALU, FPU, GDI, OpenGL and DirectDraw (referred to as D2D) performance.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070409095440/http://crystalmark.info/download/CrystalMark09.zip

I use a ThinkPad T41 with a Pentium M 1.6 GHz, 1x 512 MB PC2700 DDR RAM, an ATi Mobility Radeon 7500 32MB, and a 5400 RPM 40 GB HDD to run 98SE.

The Pentium M is a continuation of the Pentium III series, but at higher clocks and with SSE2. Unfortunately they are almost non-existent on the desktop and need an adapter to work with socket 478.

Since the OP is aiming towards a desktop solution, some of this stuff is out of consideration, but the desktop cards will certainly beat my mobile card which ran SimCity 4 with six-figure pop cities good, as well as Mall Tycoon 3 (2005). I will stress that PC2700 DDR RAM is certainly superior to PC133 though, as all of the benchmark entries in Everest Home Edition 2.20 for PC2700 are higher than for PC133, including my system. I do think that most Socket 478 boards are capable of using DDR (mine uses PC2700, though it's currently out of order so I won't be testing it).

The thing is that the Pentium III topped out at about 1.5 GHz and then you had the P4s going well above 3.0 GHz. Not as efficient but I think with the PC2700 DDR and the higher clocks, you will be ahead with the P4 (I believe the tipping point is 2-2.2 GHz). I used a 3.0 GHz Prescott machine that ran almost constantly from 2004 to 2016 (it did run 98SE early on, and then it ran folding stuff in the later years) so I think that they can certainly take a bit of stress.

By the way, I get an ALU score of 5546, FPU score of 6812 and a MEM score of 2719 on my laptop with CrystalMark.

 

I got that tool now i will see what i can do with it :)

I've got P4's but any more than 1 core / cpu is pointless that windows 98SE Is like react os it can only use 1 cpu.

That is why I think a pentium 3 is best suited where multi core Pentiums be better suited to NT Systems. 

Windows 2000 can but it has limitations on 9x games, apps and stuff for example if a music application requires kernel access in windows 9x (kernel mode driver) it won't work in windows 2000.

Edited by ZaPbUzZ

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Posted (edited)

It is the single core performance of the CPU that matters as I have said look into CPU single core benches for comparison and choose from availability and performance. The 32 bit P111 will not use as much power but it may not be able to play high resolution videos for instance. Like you said prices are getting high for vintage parts, the best ones are hard to get or impossible to get. Read other posts here about compatible motherboards. Electronics needs to be kept below about 110 degrees Celsius in the silicon based transistors themselves otherwise permanent damage will occur over time. Burnout is faster at higher temps. If using air cooling expect to clean heatsinks every 6 months. If you put a fan at the bottom of a case intaking air and one on the other side at the top of the the case expelling air then there will be less stagnant air in the case and everything inside should be cooler. Bigger fans are best and often quieter 140mm should be ample for a full size case.

I have posted this from page 2 & have just discovered page 3. I would have liked an Opteron 154 but could only get the 152 even that is hard to find now. Socket 478 were only single core. I had the MSFN tabs open in the browser but they needed to be refreshed.

Edited by Goodmaneuver

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Whether to use Windows 98 SE or ME regarding DOS games and applications, the Windows ME wikipedia page has a Real Mode DOS section indicated restricted support for real mode MS-DOS, modifying the registry, work-arounds. To me this is a layer of complication that could be avoided by using Windows 98 SE. Maybe a Windows ME user can comment on their experience setting up DOS games.

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22 hours ago, Wunderbar98 said:

Whether to use Windows 98 SE or ME regarding DOS games and applications, the Windows ME wikipedia page has a Real Mode DOS section indicated restricted support for real mode MS-DOS, modifying the registry, work-arounds. To me this is a layer of complication that could be avoided by using Windows 98 SE. Maybe a Windows ME user can comment on their experience setting up DOS games.

I would love this! I am still on the fence by a few bits on whether to use W98SE or ME, but I am leaning more toward W98. I heard some people have not been able to get sound cards working when they restored the real time mode to MS-DOS. Goodmaneuver said that MS-DOS with ME is faster, but I don't remember how. I know the RTM was skipped in the boot process for ME to make it faster, but restoring the RTM would make the faster boot redundant, right? 

Anyways...from my research, I am leaning more toward a P3 or P4. I now know to stay away from the early P4s as the later P3s had an edge over them. With that being said and barring all the features W98 will not be able to take advantage of with the P4, I have read the later P4s are more "intelligent" than their early counterparts. Could anyone define how.

On 4/16/2020 at 12:23 AM, win32 said:

The Pentium M is a continuation of the Pentium III series, but at higher clocks and with SSE2. Unfortunately they are almost non-existent on the desktop and need an adapter to work with socket 478.

Never knew this. I love learning new stuff like this!

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Posted (edited)

>> I now know to stay away from the early P4s as the later P3s had an edge over them.

I see what you are saying, yes if we are just talking about the CPUs. The very first P4 CPUs were benching lower than the very best P111 CPUs. Motherboards we are talking about and not just the CPUs. P4 covers a wide range of CPUs with different socket types.

>>Goodmaneuver said that MS-DOS with ME is faster.

It is without any unofficial service packs though with MESP1 ME is still much faster.

There is no DOS problem with WinME all you need to do is use SETVER.exe to correct for MS-DOS version conflicts/complaints when using DOS programs/prompt if they have a problem with it. I have had no old games complain about DOS versions although I do not play them that much.

Edited by Goodmaneuver
Typo/spelling

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I just thought i'd mention I was fortunate to purchase a brand new Socket 478: MSI 661FM2-LSR Motherboard This will be a great 9x motherboard

i am fitting 2gb DDR400 and a socket 470 Pentium 4 HT @3.2Ghz (200mhz slower than it can support lol) I will benchmark it for fun too (when its ready).

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Posted (edited)

CT-479 adapter would have been good to know in 2006. https://techreport.com/review/8585/asus-ct-479-pentium-m-socket-adapter/

I tried CrystalMark but the bench did not work even with CrystalMark8. The device tab stalls the program on early versions but was OK with 2004r7 and everything worked except the bench. It says only compatible with 2K and above. If we use Hot CPU Tester then I can bench https://www.7byte.com/index.php?page=download. This is not a direct download to the Hot CPU Tester so you know where it is downloading from. The certificate has to be enabled as it is 27 days overdue 27/03/2020. It says it is the Lite version but it tests like the Pro version. See my CrystalMark 2004r7 image, SSE3 is not available. The purchasing does not seem to be available anymore. My bench was with the latest version - the download. I had an earlier version installed then tried latest today which has the improvements. Added a partial page Everest bench for some CPU comparison.

CrystalMark.png

HCTester.png

Everest.png

Edited by Goodmaneuver

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Posted (edited)

In between work, rest, and research, I have wondered if I was being way to picky and choosy with what I want. I realized I need to be more flexible and open-minded in regards to what I am getting myself into. I also acknowledge I have way more research to do to make up for my lack of knowledge from this era. I just think my avoidance of P4 stems from this. Is the slow pipeline seen in the P4 lineup really that much to scoff about? 

In regards to this, I have decided to go with W98SE. I have also found a case of a more modern day design I may use in my build (link below). Additionally, I know I said I don't need a motherboard with a ISA slot. Most of my games are launched from within Windows whether they require MS-DOS or not. I have heard some MS-DOS games may require a sound card connected to the ISA slot. So what were some of the best sound cards of the era? The slot type can be ISA or PCI. What were the standards of the era? 

https://www.amazon.com/Fractal-Design-FD-CA-Focus-BU-W-Computer-Petrol/dp/B071G4KDKG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1

My next decision is settling on a CPU. I was thinking about going with the P3 1.4 Ghz. I remembered that win32 (MSFN forum poster, not OS) mentioned the Pentium M is a successor to the P3 via laptops (mainly). I was curious if it had a successor as early in my research I remember someone (not in this forum) mentioned to me about the Core 2 lineup. I know Intel had some official support for W98 for the CPU and chip sets from this lineup. I just do not know which ones (CPU/socket/chip set). I know the Core 2 is overkill above overkill for the OS.

After a little more research, I found the Core 2 follows the Core from the PM from the P3. Could anyone tell me what the biggest differences between the Core 2 Duo/Quad is from the P3? Yes, I know they are big, and yes I know W98 only supports one core/zero threads. I know the FPU is restored to the same way it was from the P3 days (mostly). Any other differences?

Edited by theulticobia

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1 hour ago, theulticobia said:

Could anyone tell me what the biggest differences between the Core 2 Duo/Quad is from the P3?

The Core 2 Duo has several times more L2 cache, generally higher frequencies up to over 3 GHz, doubled L1 cache, and a slightly longer pipeline (12 to 14 stages, instead of the PIII's 11). The Core 2 Duo also postdates the capacitor plague which has affected my Slot 1 and Socket 478 boards.

The Core 2 Quad is more of the same, and may only be necessary if certain workloads are being performed on a newer OS.

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Posted (edited)

>> I have heard some MS-DOS games may require a sound card connected to the ISA slot. So what were some of the best sound cards of the era? The slot type can be ISA or PCI. What were the standards of the era?

https://msfn.org/board/topic/181107-windows-98se-and-nforce-2-change-chipset/?do=findComment&comment=1176842 This link explains how the ISA emulator is installed. ME/98 has the Roland driver which dates back to suit early games. In game setup select the Roland Sound Canvas for sound, it works on WinME I tried it. https://msfn.org/board/topic/180571-hd-ac97-audio-beyond-the-137gb128gib-barrier/?do=findComment&comment=1175891 This link talks of it. Closest setting that worked for me was Tandy 16 colors for Outrun but not working very well with my nVidia graphics card. It would probably work if Hercules graphic card was selected but it said use the other disc which I did not have. Like Wunderbar98 said the sound came through the system speaker of which I first thought was instability. Take another game for example, Settlers 2, the sound settings are MIDI music : Roland MT-32 with MPU-401 Interface and Digital audio : Creative Labs Sound Blaster Pro or 100% compatible. My sound card is on-board RealTek AC97.

Best Single core new CPU available at the moment is Sempron 150 see my WinME bench just beats the Sempron 140. http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/873/AMD_Sempron_150_vs_Intel_Celeron_Dual-Core_E3400.html Have to be careful of what motherboard is chosen and the integrated sound may not be compatible. Pipeline stages, I could not find any reference to the internal architecture of the P3 & P4 and relied on my memory. I probably should not comment as I do not know enough about this but I found this article. http://www.ecs.umass.edu/ece/koren/ece568/papers/Pentium4.pdf Higher clock speeds were obtained due to less processing required in each stage. Then sequential parallel processing is done like this 4 x instruction 4 stage pipeline displays. P3 had 10 stage pipeline and P4 had a 20 stage pipeline but it is talking about a Misprediction pipeline. Image from Wiki.

375px-Pipeline,_4_stage.svg.png

Edited by Goodmaneuver
It was not Outrun that worked.

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After another weekend of work and research, I have decided to go with the Pentium 3 1400S Tualatin. Are there any known problems I should be aware of with this CPU? I know I can research it, but I would like the experience of others to be directly shared to/with me. To continue...

 

I. I know motherboards of this era suffered from the dreaded capacitor plague.

II. I want to know if modern PSUs can work with the PIII or if I have to get one from the era.

III. I want to know if there are are good CPU coolers/fans that won't risk cracking the CPU itself.

IV. Inferring none of these are the issue, how difficult is it to find a motherboard of this era in a good workable condition?

Any advice for me here regarding these?

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Posted (edited)

 

On 4/22/2020 at 4:25 PM, Goodmaneuver said:

>> I have heard some MS-DOS games may require a sound card connected to the ISA slot. So what were some of the best sound cards of the era? The slot type can be ISA or PCI. What were the standards of the era?

https://msfn.org/board/topic/181107-windows-98se-and-nforce-2-change-chipset/?do=findComment&comment=1176842 This link explains how the ISA emulator is installed. ME/98 has the Roland driver which dates back to suit early games. In game setup select the Roland Sound Canvas for sound, it works on WinME I tried it. https://msfn.org/board/topic/180571-hd-ac97-audio-beyond-the-137gb128gib-barrier/?do=findComment&comment=1175891 This link talks of it. Closest setting that worked for me was Tandy 16 colors for Outrun but not working very well with my nVidia graphics card. It would probably work if Hercules graphic card was selected but it said use the other disc which I did not have. Like Wunderbar98 said the sound came through the system speaker of which I first thought was instability. Take another game for example, Settlers 2, the sound settings are MIDI music : Roland MT-32 with MPU-401 Interface and Digital audio : Creative Labs Sound Blaster Pro or 100% compatible. My sound card is on-board RealTek AC97.

Best Single core new CPU available at the moment is Sempron 150 see my WinME bench just beats the Sempron 140. http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/873/AMD_Sempron_150_vs_Intel_Celeron_Dual-Core_E3400.html Have to be careful of what motherboard is chosen and the integrated sound may not be compatible. Pipeline stages, I could not find any reference to the internal architecture of the P3 & P4 and relied on my memory. I probably should not comment as I do not know enough about this but I found this article. http://www.ecs.umass.edu/ece/koren/ece568/papers/Pentium4.pdf Higher clock speeds were obtained due to less processing required in each stage. Then sequential parallel processing is done like this 4 x instruction 4 stage pipeline displays. P3 had 10 stage pipeline and P4 had a 20 stage pipeline but it is talking about a Misprediction pipeline. Image from Wiki.

375px-Pipeline,_4_stage.svg.png

Best sound cards of the era were Creative that both ISA and PCI versions satisfied DOS game sound support.(a more rare vintage retro favorite)

ESS, Yamaha, Analogue Devices, and Crystal brands are mostly ok, much more available, cheaper and have drivers floating around.

Generally I recommend any sound card with a yamaha OPL chip onboard where possible usually guarantees clear sound effects and synthesis.

DOS sound support is not restricted to ISA or EISA slot technology. PCI is actually an improvement (away from windows 95 era plug and pray). Vogon forums outline fantastic PCI sound cards for DOS and DOS game support.

Edited by ZaPbUzZ
additional info

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