Question about Windows XP and Flash Drive

[Monroe]

I have no idea where to post this but since I am using Windows XP, I am posting here. I just noticed this a few minutes ago.

 

Maybe someone can clear this mystery up for me. I have my Favorites folder (Bookmarks) saved on a 16 GB flash drive.

 

When I right clicked on the Favorites folder and clicked on Properties on my hard drive to see the size and number of files and then clicked on the Favorities folder that is "saved" on the 16 GB flash drive, there is a difference ... but I don't understand it. I was doing a quick compare check to verify they are the same.

 

The folders are identical and should be except for the "Size on disk" figure ... all the other figures match.

 

Here are the figures from the hard drive and flash drive:

 

Favorites folder on hard drive:

 

Size: 58.1 KB (59,596 bytes)

 

Size on disk: 2.15 MB (2,256,896 bytes)

 

Contains: 551 Files, 61 Folders

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Favorites Folder saved on 16 GB Flash Drive

 

Size: 58.1 KB (59,596 bytes)

 

Size on disk: 4.30 MB (4,513,792 bytes)

 

Contains: 551 Files, 61 Folders

 

Why ... if everything is the same are the MBs different ... to my knowledge I am not "compressing" anything ...

2.15 MB X 2 = 4.30 MB ?

 

monroe

Edited August 27, 2015 by monroe

[jaclaz]

Hmmm.

 

Which size are clusters of the one (and of the other) filesystem?

 

Points of note:

2,256,896 x 2 = 4,513,792

And:

59,596/551=108.15987

Curiously:

2,256,896/551=4,096

But:

4,513,792/551=8,192

 

I can see in my crystal ball that the volume on your hard disk is NTFS and that the USB stick is FAT32 formatted, but it's a bit foggy in it today, in case:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/140365

 

jaclaz

[Monroe]

Yes jaclaz you are correct ... I forgot to mention about the hard drive being NTFS and the flash drive is FAT32 ... wasn't thinking there might be a difference ... but I always compare or check folders all the time (for years) and everything has always matched including MBs ... at least I think so, I'm sure I would have noticed this before today, maybe not.

 

If something would be different in the "files number" then I would know to do a new backup.

 

I tried your link but it doesn't seem to work for me at this time.

 

In answer to your question about cluster size ... where would I get that information? ... is there a software program that would provide that information? ... I remember seeing something like that sometime back but I don't remember where it was ... about cluster size.

 

monroe

Edited August 27, 2015 by monroe

[jaclaz]

The link is to a Microsoft KB, it is unusual that you cannot reach it.

 

However, let's see if a simple explanation can be given.

 

A filesystem is not particularly different (simplified) from a book or a magazine.

 

There is an index (which is the FAT tables on FAT and the $MFT in NTFS) that gives you a reference to the page where a given content is.

 

Of course there is a difference (page size) between - say - a magazine and a pocket paperbook, i.e. each page (given that a same sized font is used on both) will be able to contain a bigger or smaller amount of characters.

 

A cluster is nothing (in this simplified example) but the size of the paper page, the NTFS uses by default (in the 7Mb up to 16 Tb filesystem size, i.e. "always")  an A4 size (4Kb clusters), the FAT32 (in the size range between 8 and 16 Gb) defaults to A3 (8Kb clusters).

 

Now, if you print a book of aphorisms and decide to have one page for each aphorism, the result will look a lot like a single sentence at the top of a vastly blank page in the A4 version and in the same single sentence at the top of a much huger empty space on A3.

 

Your average file size (not that calculating averages is always a good idea, mind you) is 108 bytes, which is "normal" as a "favorite" is just a link, and is rare to have links exceeding - say - 200 characters or so.

But each link has it's own "name" and thus goes on a different "page" or cluster, in both cases a single cluster per favorite will be used, but a link on 4Kb cluster will use 4 kb, a link on a 8Kb cluster will use 8Kb.

 

I would suggest you to use secinspect.exe:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=19470

particularly if used to make a "report" like when used with SIRUN.BAT:

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/BootToolsRefs.htm#SecInsp

which may be useful for a number of other things. 

You want to look at the "Sectors Per Cluster" value, multiplying it by the "ButesPerSector" one, example:

 

BytesPerSector : 512
Sectors Per Cluster : 8

 

this means that 8*512=4,096 the filesystem is using a 4 Kb cluster.

 

jaclaz

[Guest]

The link is to a Microsoft KB, it is unusual that you cannot reach it.

The forum is interfering with the link, jaclaz. You have:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/140365

But the forum links to:

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_144069488802314&key=d704b6e3f778d90f77e78fcf2f2e23dd&libId=idugapf401010nwu000DAcauoy70i&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msfn.org%2Fboard%2Ftopic%2F174371-question-about-windows-xp-and-flash-drive%2F%23entry1106894&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fkb%2F140365%C2%A0&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msfn.org%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dsearch%26do%3DviewNewContent%26search_app%3Dforums&title=Question%20about%20Windows%20XP%20and%20Flash%20Drive%20-%20Windows%20XP%20-%20MSFN%20Forum&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.micr...n-us%2Fkb%2F140365%26nbsp%3B

MSFN's been acting funny over the past few weeks. Somehow I've lost my Sponsor status even though I subscribed just a few months ago; it's supposed to last a year. There's no point in renewing at the moment. Edited August 27, 2015 by 5eraph

[jaclaz]

But the forum links to:

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_144069488802314&key=d704b6e3f778d90f77e78fcf2f2e23dd&libId=idugapf401010nwu000DAcauoy70i&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msfn.org%2Fboard%2Ftopic%2F174371-question-about-windows-xp-and-flash-drive%2F%23entry1106894&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fkb%2F140365%C2%A0&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msfn.org%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dsearch%26do%3DviewNewContent%26search_app%3Dforums&title=Question%20about%20Windows%20XP%20and%20Flash%20Drive%20-%20Windows%20XP%20-%20MSFN%20Forum&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.micr...n-us%2Fkb%2F140365%26nbsp%3B

Well, I would guess that anyone member of MSFN would have opted out from viglink:

http://www.viglink.com/opt-out/

though it has occurred to me a few times that (evidently because of some "rogue" site/script, I don't think MSFN is involved in this) the preference was "reset" to "opt-in", never really attempted to troubleshoot, I simply check the status and re-opt-out if needed.

 

I just checked and the link is fine, it must be monroe's (and/or yours) settings (and additionally a viglink hiccup of some kind).

 

jaclaz

[Monroe]

Thanks for the additional information and download links. I downloaded the program and am not really sure what I am looking at ... it seems to be a bit over my head or pay grade.

 

All my flash drives are formatted through XP before I put anything on them ... so in short, is this a normal thing with identical folders stored on a hard drive and flash drive? I just don't understand why I never noticed it before.

 

I created another identical folder on the hard drive and copied it to the flash drive ... I got these results.

 

Test folder on hard drive:

 

Size: 165 KB (169,855 bytes)

 

Size on disk: 204 KB (208,896 bytes)

 

Contains: 16 Files, 5 Folders

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Test Folder saved on 16 GB Flash Drive

 

Size: 165 KB (169,855 bytes)

 

Size on disk: 248 KB (253,952 bytes)

 

Contains: 16 Files, 5 Folders

 

I guess it could be another "Mystery of the Ocean".

 

In addition to what 5eraph and you discussed ... I still get this message ... I am using the K-Meleon browser so maybe there is a setting needing to be changed, I don't know.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Redirect Loop

 

Redirection limit for this URL exceeded. Unable to load the requested page. This may be caused by cookies that are blocked.

 

The browser has stopped trying to retrieve the requested item. The site is redirecting the request in a way that will never complete.

 

Have you disabled or blocked cookies required by this site?

NOTE: If accepting the site's cookies does not resolve the problem, it is likely a server configuration issue and not your computer.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

It seems a change was also made on my member ID ... it now lists me as a "MSFN Expert" and I am certainly far from being an expert on anything dealing with computers. That was never there before ... I'm not sure what was there ... but it looks nice anyway being call an "expert" !

...

Edited August 27, 2015 by monroe

[Guest]

Viglink is new to me. Sponsors don't see such links. Since I've mysteriously become a non-sponsor I guess I'll have to get used to it.

[Monroe]

I have never heard of Viglink ... I will go to Google later and check it out. Maybe everything will clear up later ... I may lose my "expert" title and have to live in the real world again.

 

monroe

 

[bluebolt]

The link doesn’t work for me, either.  Never heard of “viglink.”

[submix8c]

@Monroe - In a Command (CMD) Prompt, do a "FORMAT /?" the look at "/A:size". Files as small as Links will use more Disk Space with a larger Cluster Size. It's as simple as that. There's a very good reason "Size" (real size) and "Size On Disk" (Bytes consumed via Clusters) is different. For a Folder, the total is calculated for all Files (including the Filder and Sub-Folders). It's not that complex.

 

I thought this was made clear here.

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/174371-question-about-windows-xp-and-flash-drive/#entry1106904

5eraph gave the direct link to the appropriate MS article (about Cluster Sizes aka "Allocation Units").

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/174371-question-about-windows-xp-and-flash-drive/#entry1106912

That should clarify your confusion.

 

HTH

[Monroe]

submix8c ... OK, I didn't realize that was the actual answer ... reread everything.

 

That title in my ID ... MSFN Expert is way too generous.

...

[jaclaz]

submix8c ... OK, I didn't realize that was the actual answer ... reread everything.

And does it make sense to you now?

Or you need additional info?

That title in my ID ... MSFN Expert is way too generous.

...

Don't worry , actually expert members  know that the "expert" is an automatic qualification once you reach a certain number of posts, should be more like "been around here since a lot of time and posted over n times" (most probably with n=1000 ), but "expert" fits better in the available space.

 

jaclaz

[Mcinwwl]

That title in my ID ... MSFN Expert is way too generous.

...

Don't worry , actually expert members  know that the "expert" is an automatic qualification once you reach a certain number of posts, should be more like "been around here since a lot of time and posted over n times" (most probably with n=1000 ), but "expert" fits better in the available space.

 

jaclaz

 

 

Blabber suits just fine, time to replace?

Edited August 28, 2015 by Mcinwwl

[Monroe]

jaclaz ... yes, I think I have it down to understanding my earlier question.

 

I ran the Command (CMD) Prompt, do a "FORMAT /?" then look at "/A:size" that submix8c provided.

 

I have more information than I did when I first posted.

 

Also, OK I recently went over 1000 posts but I really wasn't paying that much attention to the ID change to "MSFN Expert" ... so when a "post milestone" is reached ... a person is now considered to be a sage or expert ... if only it were true!

 

That clears that up.

...