ragnargd

Hi, Dietmar, do you have any link pointing at which Hardware is supported by Ramsey XP? I'm especially interested in HW (esp. CPU and MoBo) that is cross-compatible with W11. Yes, even if it exists, secureboot... fTPM 2.20... XP might choke on that... but that maybe subject to experiments... Cheers,

The Xeons you mention are Sandy Bridge, the i7-4???X are Ivy Bridge. Yes, that is the last officially supported CPU Generation. Btw.: Good link to that video, some hope remains.

Wise words. I cannot guarantee the security of the links, but my detectors didn't go red. As always: Shields up! ...maybe the youtube links bears slightly less risk, as it is up for several years. Ah, yes, context: The first link is proving evidence that W95 became an evil AI after being dropped by M$. The video is completely unrelated, but a bit evil as well, if i may say, which relates to its popularity in britain and the US.

Beware... https://windows95tips.com/#_=_ In case you don't remember, the blogger is also famous for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx1XIm6q4r4

Shamelessly stolen from IgorsLab (successor of TomsHardwareGuide in Germany):

I had a week of training by Didier Stevens (about pdf-hacking), and i think that man has quite some proven record of competence regarding security. He knows how to apply some really nasty hacks. I read the blog-entry, and think what is there will motivate security-aware people to disable the webdav-client even on other old OS than XP. I'd be very, very careful with W7 already, but with a patched W10, it should be safe. I don't use anything below W10, unless it is blocked on my router, and confined to a virtual network. For anyone knowing what they are doing regarding hardening, some old OS might still suffice, but for myself, i'm not that good, therefore i don't take risks.

Regarding NV 980 and NV 970 see this, i own one 980 and two 970 (SLI), both work well, SLI won't work on XP though (while it does on W10 in a dual-boot config): I recommend the GTX 980 with this driver as the "fastest" GPU for XP --> that actually makes sense <-- ... (a GTX 980 Ti with 6GB on a modded driver sounds nice, but i can hardly find a rational over the 980)

I did my own experiements with Ryzen and XP - "running" is not the same as "running games on it". I'd rather not invest time, less money, on that horse. With Ivy bridge, i have the latest CPU-type officially supporting XP (including Socket 1356 and 2011 type Xeons and the like). With everything else later on, even if you feel a bit more adventurous, drivers become scarce. But even there, i7-6xxx is the newest reported to run. And includes heavy modding for ACPI, UEFI. AHCI, and stuff. I had more --> modern <-- systems semi-running W98SE than XP, but W11-compatible hardware is far out. But let's see, who comes up with what.... MSFN always surprised me in the past...

Yeah, possible, i have XP 64 here as well. Unfortunately, many games that work in XP 32 bit, won't work on XP 64bit. Very often they DO run, but the installers are still 16bit (which works in XP 32bit), and so you have problems getting them installed. So, sometimes 64bit is a solution, sometimes it is not. But intel core start the generation AFTER core 7700K, and that is pretty new, many things just six years old. W11 and XP seem to be mutually exclusive atm.

Hi, i hereby declare this thread the #1 candidate for the most depressing threads on this forum - your mileage may vary, maybe depending on your definition of funny, yay .... \o/ I have three PCs in service, and one PC at my dauthters flat, that are capable of running W10 and XP in dual boot, and of those, two actually do (my best rig thereof has two GTX970 in SLI - SLI working in W10 only, of course, glad the GTX970 works with inf-modding under XP -, SB XiFi 4, all have an i7-3770 Ivy bridge, you know in drill: Max performance, while staying dual-boot compatible, for optimum experience with games that are a tad older). Now Miniweak Wetware published the list of HARDWARE that might (or might not) upgrade from W10 to W11. For the record, CPUs for ... : AMD: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors Intel: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors Key Info: TPM 2.0 chip needed, Secure Boot required, CSM = off (correct? not correct?). Of course, M$ may weaken this stance, and by experience from last updates they might, but if, not by far. So maaaaaybe TPM 1.2, but don't bet on it. This might mean the cutting-off of XP-capable machines, while (might = 99.99%); Of course, i ignore W10 remaining for a few years, that is NOT content of this thread. So this is your Finest Hour (tm): List Hardware that still is Dual-boot compatible, or say if you expect this to become, once MSFN runs hot (only calls with good arguments, please, no wishful thinking). The cutting off of certain old GPU iron from driver-support at AMD or NVidia is purely coincidental, correct? DX12 is named as a "GPU and Driver requirement", but i guess the same old story here: AMD is dead on cross-compatible legacy (still, and again) - but that's not new, and anyone interested may just get a GTX9x0, and is fine, until NVidia pulls the plug (and they usually do, like with the 6000/7000 series just lately on W10, but it takes time, so we might see W12 before that happens). Again: This thread is about cross-compatible, dual-boot capable hardware, XP and W11, nothing else. Please keep your threads tidy. Cheers, Ragnar G.D.

Nice find.

I don't connect my two XP systems to the internetz, and therefore can remove the most important cpu-cycle- and io-eater there is: Antivirus. This also means, shoutdown the update service, 'course... :-) One of my two XP-systems has two NICs, one for XP and solely internal connection (blocked from internet on my router, and on VLAN separated from my other boxes except for one), while my other OS on that machine (W10 64bit) has that NIC disabled, and connects to internetz via a 10GBit NIC - which XP cannot make use of (i need not explain why, i guess... :-) ). My other machine carrying XP has W98SE as its primary OS, where both systems use the same NIC, and are on that locked VLAN mentioned above as well. Fixed IP-Adresses and such, speeds up W98SE, of course, but also XP to a small degree.

My preferred version is: Tested ... (MSFN-style) In other words: First, i test The Latest (tm) , to see if my needs are covered, and to to be "on top" security-wise. If not, i go backwards one step at a time, until they are. M$ is adding and removing features constantly, but without trying, you won't find out "your" red lines. My last move was from WHS 2011 to Standard 2016, and i'll keep that, while (patches == incoming); (This does not exactly answer your more detailed question: I switched from sandy bridge to ryzen with that step, which is an option you most likely don't have)

W10 is "Unusable" with a legacy NVidia card, because the screen flickers to an unacceptable extent, display artifacts, color distortions, you name it. Like with a semi-broken GPU. There is no point in staying with some outdated version (of whatever W7/8/10), because the purpose is exactly to have a current Windows 10 64bit and W9x, it is there to proove that Windows is Windows since over 20 years, and it was/(is?) a platform to compare the same ole' games over the generations of Windows, i.e. Baldurs Gate I / II, Half Life 1, Diablo 1/2, Stalker, etc.. The other two OS, that is, W98SE and XP stay usable, of course, as there is no change. But there is no point any more in keeping up the FX platform, which requires quite some effort installing, and patching, and keeping alive with W10 64bit. Because: If i just want to use XP and W98SE (and NOT W10 64bit) there are fully supported Platforms for that, as i.e. the ASRock 775i65G R3.0 https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/775i65G R3.0/index.asp But you need not feel the same, this is just me... ;-) Cheers, Ragnar G.D.

Hi, maybe we see the waning light of triple-boot with W98/XP/W10: The last usable driver for NVidia Series 6 and 7 cards on Windows 10 (GEFORCE 309.08 for W88 64bit, from 2015-02-24) is showing severe flicker and display-problems (here: with my GF 7900 GTX PCIe 512MB). This would fundamentally render moot AMD FX as the most cross-compatible, intergenerational platform for W98SE to current W10, and might do so for any other modern platform. (Unfortunately, LInux with pass-through is still not up to replace this "in totam", even though it seems the most promising alternative). Does anyone else have the same problem, or is it just me? Cheers, Ragnar G.D.

Dear Old Friend, face the inconvenient truth: You ARE older. But: Welcome to the club... :) Myself, I will celebrate in three and a half years, as the BSODs of W95 cost me that much years of my life. W98SE FTW.

I have that board sitting on my benchtable at the moment. I can confirm what Feamane said. After all is said and done, it is a matter of preference, both choices are ok. That is not happening very often with W9x ... :-D

>>ragnargd : Thank you for taking the time to explain a lot of things, i really appreciate it!! My pleasure >>The JMB is a pain, it does not detect drives connected with IDE>SATA converter etc. I used such adapters, but stopped it, as i had problems to fixate cabling and the drives, quite often resulting in instable or non-booting systems. >>I am using adata SU650 drives 2 of them. 1 is 120gb for 98 and 240 for windows xp, 120 is divided into 40-80 and the 80gb one i am using to put data, drivers, >>games dump so if i want to format again, that is there with the 98 setup and everything. Looks like a sensible distribution, i'd keep that. >>The sata drives work fine and boot very fast but show in compatibility mode. There is no compatibility mode >>in BIOS for drives to put them into IDE >>but i am not facing any disk issues so i dont know if i want to do anything? your suggestions? Its showing in fifo mode in device manager in 98. >>with xp its all working fine. Only under 9x the JMB was a problem for me, with XP it was fine. Most people here try to get rid of the compatibility mode, but if it has no negative impact for you, just keep it. For me it was a problem, as my optical drives went invisible once even one drive on the machine was in compatibility mode, so it stopped me from playing some games that depended on a optical drive. If you don't have that problem, just change nothing. Do you have any specific problems? >>Processor i am using is c2d E8400 for this build and i have more as stated above, even p4 at 3.0 and 3.2. The problem i have in processor is it showing as 2.4 ghz instead of 3.0 As i said, that is not a "problem", but the limit of your hardware, namely the limited frontside bus (FSB). But, at the same time, the C2D is still fast enough even at 2.4GHz, so just ignore the issue. Your machine is no less stable, and even produces less heat. I ignored that issue as well in the end. >>My 6600 GT was working fine and i swapped with 6800 vanilla, it performs a bit better. As i have now 2 pcs of 6600GT, 1 6600 vanilla and 1 6800 vanilla, i am pretty set on this series >>(reason why i chose this is because easy install as its native 98 drivers blocked artificially perform flawlessly and also back in the day i was drooling to get a 6600 but dint have the time and money) >>i got 33000 marks in 3d marks 2000 with it. all games run fine and no crashes so far touchwood! >>Also, no external power connector on these cards as they are PCIe and only agp models of these need external power. I can relate to your arguments, so, if i were you, i'd also keep it at that. >>I got 2 of these asus boards from refurbisher and they are in good shape. so sticking with them for the 775 build. Sounds good. >>Meanwhile to get really native old windows 98, i purchased 2 boards of socket 370 and pentium 3 processors again 2 pcs along with half a dozen graphics card lot with riva tnt 2 pro >>and mx400 and 9200 and then got radeon 9600 along with 6600nvidia agp. i plan to build this new system for just windows 98. >>I do not have ide disks so thinking about ide to cf card adapter as its native ide. your suggestions? i dont know if my sata>ide converters will work but i will try those too. I have no experience with cf adapters, and, as i mentioned, did not have good experience with any other adapters. At this, you will probably be the first to find out, and here at MSFN we hope you will report... ;-) (search the MSFN forum, there are mixed experiences with CF, but from long time ago, many CF kind of worked, while others did not. But those that worked tended to be slow, and very often too small. If you have the hardware already, just try. Before you invest money, better read). >>in the end i want to have these 2 machines, 1 high performing and 1 older native 98. Most of my old installations died because of hardware failure. So, i refrain from keeping old hardware for nostalgia, as rather sooner then later they perish, and i don't want a broken heart... ;) I try to work only with hardware that is as new as reasonably possible. But don't let that be an argument for you. I stick to 98SE, as it is the most compatible for the old games, and that is my (only) motivation. >>Appreciate your reply! I appreciate you efforts on W9x!

Well, i had the Asus P5B Deluxe, looong time ago. As it is quite some years ago, take my "hints" with a grain of salt... and your board is a bit more limited than the P5B Deluxe, being a tad bit older, as far as i know. The Audigy and Audigy 2 are the best choice, bar none. Check the Device-ID of the LAN, maybe drivers exist. My P5B board had a W9x-compatible LAN. I used Windows 7 on that board as well, but gave it away thereafter. I read of people using a P5B Deluxe with Windows 10, but that board had an ICH8R, while yours has the ICH8 (without "R"), which is a problem under W10 (many modern SATA-options are not supported). If i were you, remembering how cumbersome it can be to run W10 on such an old system, i'd stay with XP and W9x, or, at best, consider a modern 64bit Linux system. Experiements to consider: (1) CPU: I ran my P5B Deluxe with an Intel C2Q 9550S, which was the latest and most advanced Socket 775 CPU. That one would only run with FSB 1000 instead of 1333 on the P5B-VM SE, but that is true for your C2D CPUs as well, correct? Under XP a C2Q will be a bit more responsive, which might, or might not, help some games when run on XP, while, of course, that won't make a difference on W9x... As you don't use the internet, there is no need for Antivirus Software (not that it would help much, given the loss of support from most vendors). More cores were important for that, as Antivirus taxed those systems a lot. So, in the end, having just two cores on XP will probably still suffice. (2) Storage: Using a plain SATA II HDD of a maximum of 128 GB (even better: 32GB) might give you a hassle-free start on W9x. SATA III devices can be a problem, sometimes, see below. I use IDE-SSD on IDE-ports for ever - i think transcend still sells the Transcend Industrial PSD330 32GB, IDE (TS32GPSD330) -, which make such a system so much more fun. You would need an adapter, though, as they have a 44-pin IDE port. If that is a good idea, is an entirely different question, for this reason: To get rid of the "compatibility mode", i vaguely remember to have disabled the SATA-ports of JMicron JMB363, at least the SATA-ports, first, but it might have included the IDE-ports as well. Reason: I don't think there is a "good" driver for the JMB 363 for W9x, if any exists at all, and that controller is prone to send your system to compatibility mode, even without any device attached. You don't have SATA-ports on the JMB on your board, as far as i can see at Asus. Might be worth a try, if nothing else helps (many SATA DVD-drives won't work in compatibility mode), at the price of loosing the IDE-ports. I think that using SATA-SSDs is possible, although i would try this with a cheap exemplary, not bigger than 32GB, as some are definitely not compatible with that chipset anymore. I have some SATA II SSDs lying around that worked, and at least one SATA III SSD that didn't. On more modern controllers, like on AMD 970, all SSDs (including the mentioned SATA III example) work under W98SE, but that is not your situation. I used a PCI controller with combined SATA I and IDE support for such scenarios. Experiment at your discretion... ;-) (3) GPU: Another experiment worth the effort, once your system is stable, is using NVidia GPUs of the 7xxx series instead of the 6xxx series, which are either much faster, or, at the same speed, produce less heat (and use less power, but ignore poweruse, as you won't use that system often enough to make that count). They are therefore much easier to handle (i.e. some don't need a PCIe power cable), and can all be cooled passively with good aftermarket coolers. I prefer the 7600 GT 256MB, which combines the speed of a NV 6800, no PCIe power cable needed, passively cooled with ease. But only consider using the 7xxx Series, if your monitor is Full HD, as only at high resolutions that speed advantage is worth the effort. On the other hand, you use an inf-modded driver anyway, so it might not be too difficult for you... and under XP there are games that will make good use of anything up to a GTX 980 Ti, so "Faster is Better" (tm) under XP... :-D I played i.e. Half Life 2 and a heavily modded Stalker on that P5B Deluxe system, and also BG2 with a widescreen-mod. All of that ran better on XP than on W9x, for several reasons, but that is something you can find out yourself now... -------------------------- Generally speaking, i sympathize with your intention to use that system for old games, as that mirrors my interest in W9x. Have fun!

soggi.org is a real treat. Thank you!

Could you do me a favour, and look up the Vendor/Device-ID of that NIC?

For the Intel Pro CT Desktop Adapters, the cards sold nowadays are of a revision (from years 2012-2014) that is not supported by the old drivers (latest year 2006) in any way, i really tried hard, they just don't work together. I now try to find old revisions of the cards. Most were used as onboard-chips or add-in cards on serverboards, but there never have been many in circulation in 2006 in the first place. I found pictures of those old Pro CT NICs, they do look different from those of today (much shorter PCB, and very often only available as low-profile). I don't expect to find any anytime soon, so unless some show up, i will stay with the Pro 1000 MT PCI, which are quite ok (and better that the realtrek PCIe chips at the moment).

@Goodmaneuver The MoBo and cards show no extraordinary temps, and there are no problems with the board, it runs absolutely fine, no issues at all. And with Intel NICs, everything works like a charm. Only the Realtek NICs have problems, showing abysmal performance. I have found out that many realtek cards have some performance problems on W10, of which most can be dealt with by setting parameters, while others will be dealt with by microsoft-updates. It seems to be fairly common: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-hardware/realtek-pcie-gbe-family-controller-very-slow/f42884d5-37fa-45d7-89a0-552f81ab1671 So, after all, it really is a problem of the drivers and parameters. These didn't get much love from realtek lately. --> The latest Windows Version together with the latest Realtek driver brought about 50% with the W9x-compatible RTL8139x --> 80MBit, and whooping 100% with the onboard RTL8111E --> 100-200MBit. Still fail, but at least they gained some ground against the Intel Pro 1000 MT PCI (which is restricted by the PCI-bus). For the time being, i will just stay with intel, that solves these problems. Anyway, thank you very much for your help, it is highly appreciated!

Hi, macx1227, welcome to MSFN! Myself, i ran a E8400 with W98SE, and also a C2Q 9550S. Unfortunately, CPUs are (usually) not the problem, so that does not say anything. Chipset and mainboard-layout are paramount. Your PC has the Q43 chipset, if i'm not mistaken, and i found these data (sorry, German only): https://www.tiger-technik.de/Mainboards/Intel/Sockel-775/HP-Compaq-6000-Pro-SFF-MT-Mainboard-531965-001-503362-001-Intel-Q43-DDR3-m188::1630.html http://www.webdatenblatt.de/cds/de/?pid=6d32df853078772 Are these correct, basically? (Mainly, is the screenshot correct? - if not, can you send a screenshot of the MoBo layout?) Cheers, Ragnar G.D.

@MrMateczko: I will try both, but later, as i don't have time at the moment. Btw: Cool, this is the newest Intel-Driver for 9x/ME, mine are older. Thank you! @Goodmaneuver: I already tried your tips. This didn't change a thing... here. But as i had the feeling, there is some wisdom in what you reported, i tried it on another PC (some ASRock iCafe MoBo) showing strange behaviour, i already lost a GPU. And guess what: It helped me detect the problem, here the PSU being the culprit. Wow! Probably saved my hardware. So: Thank you a lot!!!