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Modern motherboards which are working with Windows 98 (discussion)


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OK, I found the Tenda driver RTLNIC.SYS of version 5.621.304.2005, size 73984B, I uncommented RTL8111 lines and installed it without problems but after reboot PC hangs. I have to go to safe mode and disable it in device manager. When I enable it in normal mode it hangs immediatelly. Is this the version that you tried? And on what HW did you tried it, D or E?

 

How should I test if SATA is in legacy not native mode? What utility? I can see it can be accessed via legacy ports 1F0 like std. IDE...

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That is the correct Version of RTLNIC.SYS. I did have to add the /M Option to my RAM Limitation Patch and even the SPLIT8MB program on my Z87 System. You can try my Free Demo RAM Limitation Patch with the /M Option to test.

I have used it with both the RTL8111D and RTL8111E.

If you are sure the SATA Drive is accessed via Ports 1F0-1F7 then it is in Legacy Mode.

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>LoneCrusader

Plese could you send me your intel INF 9.4.0.1017 mod for personal testing as you don't have time to finish it?

It's already "finished" for the most part, I just haven't had the chance to write a README on how to use it. An earlier version is here that goes up to ICH9. I simply added all of the Intel device data to the existing MACHINE.INF and MACHINE2.INF, therefore these updated files can be placed in the 98SE SETUP folder and they will automatically be loaded instead of the older version in the CABs.

Using this method from my first version works, but soon MACHINE2.INF grows too large and causes errors during SETUP. I had to find a workaround for this so basically I expanded the "MACHINE.INF, MACHINE2.INF" structure based on the multiple MONITORx.INFs. A new MACHINE3, MACHINE4, and MACHINE5.INF are added. One can place these in the 98SE SETUP folder as well as the previous version, however 98SE does not know to automatically copy them to the /INF folder during SETUP. This means they will need to be either; a)manually copied to the /INF folder after the first phase and before the second phase of SETUP, or b)other SETUP INF files such as COPY, PRECOPY, SUBASE, etc will need to be edited to force SETUP to copy them like MACHINE.INF and MACHINE2.INF. I am running a fully slipstreamed build of both 95 OSR2 and 98SE these days so I have not tested them with a "vanilla" installation.

All of the "chipset" INFs I consider finished. I have also expanded the USB, USB2, and MSHDC INFs to include newer devices, but these are not so simple to make "generic," for example the USB.INF would depend on whether the target system is using NUSB 3.3 or earlier or 3.5 and later and the MSHDC.INF would depend on whether or not the target system will use rloew's SATA patch or whether all SATA devices will be set to Legacy Mode, etc.

My "project building" computer has been down for a couple of weeks, I had to have the motherboard recapped (capacitor plague struck), but I have it back now and I should have it back up and running soon. I will try to work up a README and get it released or if I don't get to it in a few days I will just send you the files.

 

What "patches for the 7xxx" are developed? To fix the windows shutdown issue? I don't have any other problem with that latest unofficial drivers on my 7900GT.

As rloew mentioned I was referring to the patches for 512MB cards. But also we found situations where spurious Option ROM's were causing resource conflicts and causing video cards not to work properly. Sometimes these can be handled with patches as well.

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>rloew

I played with RTLNIC.SYS and SPLIT8MB a bit more (I used SPLIT8MB from before on my P31 system because I cannot boot without it). But in this case I found it goes a bit better when I commented SPLIT8MB out. Then I was able to boot with disabled NIC and enable it later after boot. It freezed computer for about 10-20s but then it started and NIC became operational, I did a few pings out. But after reboot it hanged again. So I would need to enable it on demand after boot and don't forget to disable it before shutdown. I also asked Realtek support if they will upgrade the W9x driver, just for fun :)

But then I found another working approach. I observed in list of NIC drivers that Windows provide that I could use a 16-bit mode ODI or NDIS drivers. So I installed the RTGND.DOS via OEMSETUP.INF (the last version 1.52 from year 2015), it also added a line "net start" to my autoexec.bat that invooke RTGND.DOS loading before Windows start (it reports using 1Gbit link). Sure it would have worse performance than native 32bit driver but it works stable and speed is far as good for common browsing. I just tested DL from my hosting FTP and got about 750kB/s (not kb/s) so I'm happy with that. Only disadvantege seems to be little slower boot because it waits some additional seconds to initialize DOS driver. BTW I wonder why Windows are waiting so long if network is enabled. A clean install without net can boot in 10s but with net it maybe 30s or more...

 

The bigger issue may be with USB. I read that intel dropped UHCI since it's 5-series chipsets so it wouldn't be possible to get even USB 1.1 slow speed. It also have some USB2.0 hub between the ports and chipset that behaves like a wall that any DOS USB driver can pass - I tried my favourite USBASPI.SYS - it detected EHCI and hub but failed to detect target device. This intel suxx :(

ASPI Manager for USB mass-storage  Version 2.27 (C)Copyright Panasonic Communications Co., Ltd. 2000-2008    Controller	: 00-26-0 VID=8086h PID=1C2Dh (1458h-5006h) EHCI		:	  MEM=FBFFE000h-FBFFE3FFh(1024Bytes)    Controller	: 00-29-0 VID=8086h PID=1C26h (1458h-5006h) EHCI		:	  MEM=FBFFD000h-FBFFD3FFh(1024Bytes)    ... Initializing Host Controller 1/2 ...    ... Initializing Host Controller 2/2 ...    ... Scanning USB Devices ...    USB Device	: VID=8087h PID=0024h HS(HUB)    ... Scanning USB Devices ...		: VID=8087h PID=0024h HS(HUB)    ... Scanning USB Devices ...    ERROR : Target USB device not found.1 char device installed.Driver loaded.

I just tired to install nUSB 3.6 and it detected 6-series USB root hubs and I don't have any "!" mark in devmgr but any USB device plugged in is not recognized by system. Do you have working USB on your Z87 system?

 

About SATA, yes I use my SMB utility to access HDD directly. I can force it to talk via 1F0 legacy port and it works. You can read various HDD info and SMART status with it. It's freely available at http://rayer.g6.cz/programm/programe.htm#SMB

I did some upgrades but not released yet...

 

 

>LoneCrusader

Yes I read your separate thread about installation mod INFs. I wonder there's so stupid 64k limit from RM DOS era. Is there some #inclue directive like in C to include other files? I don't have any problem to select manually right INF for my system and copy it manually. But I would prefer to be able to use it also after install (I'd like to preserve my program setting that I tuned for years than throw it and do clean instal). I think I could copy selected filed to my INF directory before I move system from old PC to new PC and let it redetect new HW. I'm just waiting for better CPU and DDR3 to complete my new setup before I will defintely replace the MB then I'd really like to try your INFs :)

 

About the patch - so it means that now with new memory patch it is possible to use any 7xxx PCI-E VGA with 512M? Wouldn't it also help with 8xxx cards? Seems that nobody succeed with them. Fortunately I have some spare 7600 and 6600 with 256 or 128M if my 7900 fails...

Edited by xrayer
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>rloew

I played with RTLNIC.SYS and SPLIT8MB a bit more (I used SPLIT8MB from before on my P31 system because I cannot boot without it). But in this case I found it goes a bit better when I commented SPLIT8MB out. Then I was able to boot with disabled NIC and enable it later after boot. It freezed computer for about 10-20s but then it started and NIC became operational, I did a few pings out. But after reboot it hanged again. So I would need to enable it on demand after boot and don't forget to disable it before shutdown. I also asked Realtek support if they will upgrade the W9x driver, just for fun :)

I remember doing something like this on a system many years ago.

But then I found another working approach. I observed in list of NIC drivers that Windows provide that I could use a 16-bit mode ODI or NDIS drivers. So I installed the RTGND.DOS via OEMSETUP.INF (the last version 1.52 from year 2015), it also added a line "net start" to my autoexec.bat that invooke RTGND.DOS loading before Windows start (it reports using 1Gbit link). Sure it would have worse performance than native 32bit driver but it works stable and speed is far as good for common browsing. I just tested DL from my hosting FTP and got about 750kB/s (not kb/s) so I'm happy with that. Only disadvantege seems to be little slower boot because it waits some additional seconds to initialize DOS driver. BTW I wonder why Windows are waiting so long if network is enabled. A clean install without net can boot in 10s but with net it maybe 30s or more...

The delay is not unusual. DHCP and other activities can take a while. If the Computer is not connected to anything, it can take quite a bit longer before it gives up.

The bigger issue may be with USB. I read that intel dropped UHCI since it's 5-series chipsets so it wouldn't be possible to get even USB 1.1 slow speed.

On my Z87, there are no USB 1.1 Controllers reported, only USB 2. It appears that the USB 2 Controller and Driver can handle USB 1.1 Devices.

It also have some USB2.0 hub between the ports and chipset that behaves like a wall that any DOS USB driver can pass - I tried my favourite USBASPI.SYS - it detected EHCI and hub but failed to detect target device. This intel suxx :(

ASPI Manager for USB mass-storage  Version 2.27 (C)Copyright Panasonic Communications Co., Ltd. 2000-2008    Controller	: 00-26-0 VID=8086h PID=1C2Dh (1458h-5006h) EHCI		:	  MEM=FBFFE000h-FBFFE3FFh(1024Bytes)    Controller	: 00-29-0 VID=8086h PID=1C26h (1458h-5006h) EHCI		:	  MEM=FBFFD000h-FBFFD3FFh(1024Bytes)    ... Initializing Host Controller 1/2 ...    ... Initializing Host Controller 2/2 ...    ... Scanning USB Devices ...    USB Device	: VID=8087h PID=0024h HS(HUB)    ... Scanning USB Devices ...		: VID=8087h PID=0024h HS(HUB)    ... Scanning USB Devices ...    ERROR : Target USB device not found.1 char device installed.Driver loaded.
I just tired to install nUSB 3.6 and it detected 6-series USB root hubs and I don't have any "!" mark in devmgr but any USB device plugged in is not recognized by system. Do you have working USB on your Z87 system?

Yes. I am using the standard Windows 98SE USB 1.1 Drivers, the Windows ME USB Storage Drivers and the USB 2 Drivers from NUSB 3.3.

About SATA, yes I use my SMB utility to access HDD directly. I can force it to talk via 1F0 legacy port and it works. You can read various HDD info and SMART status with it. It's freely available at http://rayer.g6.cz/programm/programe.htm#SMB

I did some upgrades but not released yet...

I'm not sure what is causing your problem. I have seen quite a bit of weirdness with Intel Motherboards especially with AMI BIOSes.

>LoneCrusader

About the patch - so it means that now with new memory patch it is possible to use any 7xxx PCI-E VGA with 512M? Wouldn't it also help with 8xxx cards? Seems that nobody succeed with them. Fortunately I have some spare 7600 and 6600 with 256 or 128M if my 7900 fails...

I tried my 8400GS Card after every Patch I developed. It did not help. The architecture is just too different.
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On my Z87, there are no USB 1.1 Controllers reported, only USB 2. It appears that the USB 2 Controller and Driver can handle USB 1.1 Devices.

Yes, I was learnt that USB 2.0 hub contains also speed translator so it can connect USB 1.1 devices. The main difference is that now all ports (and connected devices) goes through the hub and not directly to EHCI. BTW DOSUSB driver should handle this, it also detected mass storage device but failed later on acessing the drive letter.

 

Yes. I am using the standard Windows 98SE USB 1.1 Drivers, the Windows ME USB Storage Drivers and the USB 2 Drivers from NUSB 3.3.

OK, this gives me a hope. I'll try to clean old nUSB and reinstall again. I'm just confused that there's no "!" mark in devmgr on any USB controller but it silently ignore plugged devices. I see only a short flash from LED on USB stick when plugged in. No new device detected, neither unknown device in devmgr...

 

I tried my 8400GS Card after every Patch I developed. It did not help. The architecture is just too different.

The question is if the unofficial nvidia driver core really contains some new code for 8xxx GPUs or if the lines in INF files was only added for future use/some testing but never released. Anyway 8xxx cards are now far obsolete too. Maybe it would be possible to compile some simple 2D accelerated driver based on Nouveau opensource driver for Linux but it would be still a lot of hardwork...

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On my Z87, there are no USB 1.1 Controllers reported, only USB 2. It appears that the USB 2 Controller and Driver can handle USB 1.1 Devices.

Yes, I was learnt that USB 2.0 hub contains also speed translator so it can connect USB 1.1 devices. The main difference is that now all ports (and connected devices) goes through the hub and not directly to EHCI. BTW DOSUSB driver should handle this, it also detected mass storage device but failed later on acessing the drive letter.

 

Yes. I am using the standard Windows 98SE USB 1.1 Drivers, the Windows ME USB Storage Drivers and the USB 2 Drivers from NUSB 3.3.

OK, this gives me a hope. I'll try to clean old nUSB and reinstall again. I'm just confused that there's no "!" mark in devmgr on any USB controller but it silently ignore plugged devices. I see only a short flash from LED on USB stick when plugged in. No new device detected, neither unknown device in devmgr...

Just a guess... :unsure:

If a motherboard has only USB2 controllers then no USB1 driver files would get loaded on that system. Since Windows 9x and Windows 2K handle USB1 and USB2 devices with different driver stacks it may be necessary for USBD.SYS to be loaded with the USB2 driver (or at least copied to the system) in order to provide complete functionality. If I remember correctly the USB2 stack still uses some calls to USBD.SYS, which could be absent if no USB1 controllers were detected. I believe I saw blackwingcat say something to this effect over in the 2K forum but I don't remember where offhand.

 

PS - I'm getting ready to post the newer Intel INFs over in my other thread. ;)

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Just a guess... :unsure:

If a motherboard has only USB2 controllers then no USB1 driver files would get loaded on that system. Since Windows 9x and Windows 2K handle USB1 and USB2 devices with different driver stacks it may be necessary for USBD.SYS to be loaded with the USB2 driver (or at least copied to the system) in order to provide complete functionality. If I remember correctly the USB2 stack still uses some calls to USBD.SYS, which could be absent if no USB1 controllers were detected. I believe I saw blackwingcat say something to this effect over in the 2K forum but I don't remember where offhand.

More than a guess.

I preloaded USBD.SYS on my Z87 so I didn't see this problem but I was missing SYSTRAY and HOTPLUG which is also missing from the USB2.INF File.

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I preloaded USBD.SYS on my Z87 so I didn't see this problem but I was missing SYSTRAY and HOTPLUG which is also missing from the USB2.INF File.

 

How do you preload this driver? Is it done by nUSB or needed to do manually or via other inf? I have USBD.SYS present and it's referenced by other USB*.SYS drivers and USB.INF, IntelICH7USB.INF - maybe I need to update IntelICH7USB.INF to match PCI device IDs to my P67 PCH?

Edited by xrayer
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That wouldn't be hard to do. You can add files to the Layout and Copy INFs in the Precopy CABs.

Because of the problems I have had with SETUP.EXE, I created a CD that has the first stage Install already completed.

At that point it is easy to add other files to the CD and they are already present when I copy the CD to the Hard Drive.

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I had a problem with setup.exe from Win98SE CZ install. It siletly exit - did nothing. I replaced it by setup.exe from WinME (or Win98FE) and installation process started as expected (of course I had setup himemx memory limit before).

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Just a guess... :unsure:

If a motherboard has only USB2 controllers then no USB1 driver files would get loaded on that system. Since Windows 9x and Windows 2K handle USB1 and USB2 devices with different driver stacks it may be necessary for USBD.SYS to be loaded with the USB2 driver (or at least copied to the system) in order to provide complete functionality. If I remember correctly the USB2 stack still uses some calls to USBD.SYS, which could be absent if no USB1 controllers were detected. I believe I saw blackwingcat say something to this effect over in the 2K forum but I don't remember where offhand.

More than a guess.

I preloaded USBD.SYS on my Z87 so I didn't see this problem but I was missing SYSTRAY and HOTPLUG which is also missing from the USB2.INF File.

 

By "preload" do you mean just copying the file to the system so it is present or does it need to actually get "loaded" by NTKERN along with one of the USB2 drivers?

 

I have debated merging USB.INF and USB2.INF before. I decided against it then but it may be time to reconsider since one could do this and set it up to copy all necessary files by default to avoid the issue at hand.

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USBD.SYS only needs to be copied to WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS.

USBUI.DLL and HOTPLUG.DLL only needs to be copied to WINDOWS\SYSTEM.

SYSTRAY.EXE needs to be copied to WINDOWS\SYSTEM and added to the Run List in the Registry.

In some cases DBCLASS.SYS and DBFILTER.SYS may need to be copied.

Merging USB.INF and USB2.INF is not a bad idea.

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