Defragmenting your Hard Drive(s)

[RJARRRPCGP]

The Windows NTFS barely fragments to begin with.

Wrong. Because even with a fresh Windows installation, it's common to have at least around 500 fragments!

[Tarun]

The Windows NTFS barely fragments to begin with.

Wrong. Because even with a fresh Windows installation, it's common to have at least around 500 fragments!

A fresh format. Which means it's been there what. A day?

Start -> Run -> Rundll32.exe advapi32.dll,ProcessIdleTasks

Also, what software is telling you there are 500 fragments?

[ripken204]

i just defragged my c: drive and the ONLY fragmented files were all having to do with opera's cache.

[tain]

Also, what software is telling you there are 500 fragments?

Not sure if you were asking in general or in his particular situation, but Disk Defragmenter (the one that comes with Windows) will produce a fragmentation report if you run an analysis and then view the report.

[Tarun]

@ TAiN, the question was towards him.

This is taken from my MSVPC, which has been in use since March 2, 2006.

Volume (C:)
    Volume size                                = 15.99 GB
    Cluster size                               = 4 KB
    Used space                                 = 4.70 GB
    Free space                                 = 11.29 GB
    Percent free space                         = 70 %

Volume fragmentation
    Total fragmentation                        = 20 %
    File fragmentation                         = 40 %
    Free space fragmentation                   = 0 %

File fragmentation
    Total files                                = 29,226
    Average file size                          = 219 KB
    Total fragmented files                     = 3,238
    Total excess fragments                     = 11,720
    Average fragments per file                 = 1.40

Pagefile fragmentation
    Pagefile size                              = 768 MB
    Total fragments                            = 1

Folder fragmentation
    Total folders                              = 3,041
    Fragmented folders                         = 163
    Excess folder fragments                    = 576

Master File Table (MFT) fragmentation
    Total MFT size                             = 34 MB
    MFT record count                           = 32,344
    Percent MFT in use                         = 92 %
    Total MFT fragments                        = 2

Took it that long to fragment. Not even the slightest bit slow and I heavily use it and test things with it.

[Takeshi]

I don't see what the fuss is all about. Surely there doesn't need to be one single definitive answer which applies to everybody. Some evidence to back your claims and common sense should suffice.

It's true Windows XP defrags in the background periodically. I have a monitoring tool which tells me that dfrgntfs.exe (not the same as defrag.exe) wants to run and asks for my permission.

Surely someone who uses the computer for one hour a day needs less frequent defragmentation than someone who uses it 12h a day. Is that so hard to understand? Why at daily intevals then? Why not hourly? So that is arbitrary isn't it. It's like how often do you wash your car or have a shower.

The fact that different defrag tools have different algorithms implies that there's no optimal file layout pattern. Which do you believe? It's like having two different and conflicting opinions from two doctors or lawyers.

Someone elsewhere raised the point that having everything in contiguous clusters in one section of a HD is not necessarily the best simply because next time a file is written to the new cluster will have to be a long way away, or something like that.

As to the question of wear and tear, surely it must happen with any movement. HDs don't last for ever, do they? But whether the amount of wear and tear is sufficient to cause HD failure within a few years is debatable.

With the presumed performance gain in regular defrag, does it matter in this day and age when HDs and everything else are faster?

I don't defrag that frequently, because Windows usually says there's no need. When I do, I logon to another Windows installation to defrag offline. That should move any system file or pagefile.

[borphos]

These days defraging your HD isn't really all that big of a deal because Microsoft succesfully addressed defragging when it was a big issue in the past. When I'm approached by a user who says something like "I ran did a defrag yesterday." or "I defrag once a week." I usually tell them "Alright!" and then think to myself. "Keep sucking that pacifier."

I hear all sorts of people say all sorts of silly things about computer performance, and most of them remind me of those junk science tonics of yesteryear. So with defrag, if you feel like you need to accomplish something, go ahead run defrag often for that extra nothing of a performance increase. Otherwise just wait until the computer is slow from being bogged down by junk and perform the ultimate defrag, a reinstall. At most I run defrag on my machines once a year, and even that is probobly more often than needed.

As for why windows puts large chuncks of used space in odd locations on the drive even after you defrag the drive, this is actually done on purpose. Newer drive heads seek faster than they used to by "jumping" to a predefined spot in the general vacinity of the data you want and then seeking out your data from there. These locations are predefined in the firmware on your drive. For an added performace increase, Windows puts data near the beginning of the drive, and at those points. The old behavior was to cram everything at the front, which at the time was the most efficient. I have seen a drive with the top taken off going through a manufacturers test sequence. They run through a pattern of hopping quickly to one of those points and then seeking to the next or hopping back and forth to the ponts and then seeking through the entire drive. I'm sure you can find a video of this on youtube.

Borphos

[prx984]

These days defraging your HD ...

...and forth to the ponts and then seeking through the entire drive. I'm sure you can find a video of this on youtube.

Borphos

so true, makes so much sense to me. when i defrag my drive, i dont notice a difference in speed. i use to defrag the drive on my desktop and laptop regularly before reading this post. but now, everyone has given so many points against doing it and just from my own experience, it make sense now.

[Zxian]

Sorry to burst your bubble but defragging does not hurt your hard drive. As I said I have not seen and read any where any thing that would back up your claims. If it was as bad as you said, why would Diskkeeper have the option set it and forget it, or why would would Microsoft now have a automatic defrag run on Vista. I even went and Google Defrag and from what I read there was never any mention of damage to the hard drive.

I think the simple answer to this question is that depending on how the program does it's work, defragging can either be good or bad.

If you use a program like Diskeeper or Windows Defragmenter to defragment your files, doing so regularly won't do much harm. These programs simply defragment files without giving too much consideration for where the files end up afterwards. I know that Diskeeper provides the option to consolidate free space, but for most applications, this a second priority to simple defragmenation.

If you use a program like O&O Defrag or PerfectDisk (in Smart Placement mode) that also actively relocates all the files based on usage/name/last access/whatever, then doing a defrag every day will probably hurt more than it will help. Let's take the example of a "perfectly" defragmented drive. Now you change one file that is positioned towards the beginning of the drive and it ends up fragmenting. These programs will re-arrange all the files after that one to make sure everything "fits" the "best". Moving around several gigs of data every day is a large strain on your hard drive, since the defrag process is working the hard drives more than you probably do in a day!

Defragmenting every day is probably a bit excessive. Every week or two is more than plenty for most people. Unless you do heavy video editing where lots of new files are being altered or changed, there's no reason to defrag everyday.

[Camarade_Tux]

It can cause problems.

I had no hardware problem but on two old computers it messed the filesystem (FAT32 win95/98).

Oh and it was with the defragmenter in windows.

[RJARRRPCGP]

The Windows NTFS barely fragments to begin with.

Wrong. Because even with a fresh Windows installation, it's common to have at least around 500 fragments!

A fresh format. Which means it's been there what. A day?

Start -> Run -> Rundll32.exe advapi32.dll,ProcessIdleTasks

Also, what software is telling you there are 500 fragments?

This is after I reformatted the HDD then checked with a reliable defragmentation utility.

It can cause problems.

I had no hardware problem but on two old computers it messed the filesystem (FAT32 win95/98).

Oh and it was with the defragmenter in windows.

I never had that problem. You usually only have to worry if you have power problems.

[Tarun]

This is after I reformatted the HDD then checked with a reliable defragmentation utility.

Yet you have not named it.

I never had that problem. You usually only have to worry if you have power problems.

Though it has been proven that excessive defragmenting can and will cause issues with your hard drive.

[Camarade_Tux]

I never had that problem. You usually only have to worry if you have power problems.

For the first problem, I think TV was on at the same time.

And for the second, I think two other computers were running.

-> No popwer loss, and no defective power supply.

[KingAuther]

I defrag daily... It keeps this old PC running at peak...

After installing modern softwares to this W98se system, I found that defrag wouldn't work until I shut down my AVS and Firewall, and even then it was iffy...

I was forced to run the gamut of after market defraggers: "Fast Defrag2", "Diskeeper", "Power Defrag"...

I stopped at Power Defrag.. Finally something that actually works without slowing and loading the OS, and filling it with active trojans...

Fast Defrag came with a real ugly downloads manager, which I really didn't want in my PC, and it was quite difficult to eliminate from the OS... It hung-on tight to its new home, like trying to pry a river leach off your leg... Thht on Defrag2...

I tried Diskeeper 10, and while I was making changes in the system, I somehow triggered DK10 to rewrite its user registration... I backtracked, and found the reason, and wrote to Exec software, claiming I stumbled into a vulnerable crack for their software, and would trade the data for a freebie CD of DK10... Next day my PC was extremely hard-hit by a powerful hack-attack.. The screen flashed bright, nearly crashed, and DK suddenly came up in the screen, and my browser crashed, then DK crashed, and was totally inoperative, then the PC locked up.. After two hours of fruitless maintainance, I was forced to format-C to repair the damages... Thht on Diskeeper!!! gol-dern bully monsters!

I tried Power Defrag.. Hot Dam! it works like a Charm.. and it has even rescued this PC from hack attacks... Yay Power Defragger... I gotta buy the CD...

I keep "Eraser" on the desktop, just in case of a serious hack attack, which is forcing me to format... Sometimes Eraser can rescue the PC as a last resort.. And sometimes, with improper use, or over use, Eraser can destroy the OS faster than you can say "oops"... I'd compare Eraser to a half-stick of dynamite, with an attitude... Set its free space cleaner to just one pass.. or learn how to swear and scream very loud...

Thing is.. If you don't defrag, your PC will run slower and slower with use...

And if you are running W98se, and having a barrage of problems.. Run your registry cleaner, CCleaner, Cacheman Memory Restore, Spybot, and do a Find and a Regedit, search and destroy, for "shockwave", "macromedia", and "backweb"... then run all the features in Power Defrag...

Now how much FASTER is your PC running..?

This "super cleanup" will probably take you two to three hours... Well worth the effort.. to make it a "born again PC"...

.

[commanddotcom]

i use diskeeper 10 to defrag my drives.

it seems that lots of folks are unaware of how many different files on your hard drive get fragmented even if you don't use your pc so much.

Here's a list i found...some of these are for corporate users only, but most are for home users as well:

1. User Profiles

2. System maintenance and logging files

3. Advanced system features, including:

System Restore

Prefetching

PC Health

Registry

Internet browsing

4. System updates/upgrades:

Service packs

Hot fixes

5. Application updates/upgrades including:

Anti-virus definition files

Network management software (e.g., SMS)

6. Systems/applications never defragmented or

recently updated may have fragmented executables

7. Print spools

8. Paging file

9. Hibernation file

10. Metadata (MFT, et al.)

11. Directories

Edited August 21, 2006 by commanddotcom