Progress about 2.0 RC

[Thinker]

just got one question

Why not put in updates for explorer 6?

i mean if you do a fresh install of windows 98se , then go on line to micro$oft updates then the first update to be done is explorer 6.

i can understand not installing Dx9c & only using Dx8 or Dx8.1 for some older games or software\hardware but not installing explorer 6 , i don't see why not?

If you are one of the vast majority of internet users that still use slow dialup connections, adding monsters like IE6 and dx9c would force users to into a massive download of which they already might have anyway. If Gape included IE6 and dx9c in sp2, and then for sake of argument, say he released sp2.1 two months later with a few small fixes. That would force everyone to download IE6 and dx9c again, which would be a major kick-in-the-nuts for dialup users.

For simplicities sake it is best if very large OS updates be kept separate, letting Gape concentrate on the smaller core updates/patches that everyone is going to want. If you want to grab the full IE6 sp1 admin install, there is very brief guide on how to do that here. After its downloaded, it can be easily added to a custom 98se cdrom.

I think you realy missing the point here

let's just say that you got dial-up & after installing win98 you go a M$ to do your updates (not DX9 or WMP) but all the rest included ie6

that would take you a long time , right? would wont to do this again

But then later on (could be days or weeks) got something wrong with your pc like a big & harmfull virus or you just want to do a fresh new install because your windows is to mess-up or you just want to re-do your partitions

you'll have to go back to M$ to download the updates again

But what if you could download the SP2 from Gape with already the ie6 & some updates & put it on a cd?

maybe long to download from a dial-up but it be only one time & no more after (execpt for new updates that could come out after the SP2 from gape) but those would be small size anyways (althought M$ doesn't support Win98 anymore)

Then if you go & reformat your hd with a fresh new installation of w98 then all that you will have to do is take out your win98 cd from the cd-rom then put in your cd with the sp2 from Gape & do your updates from the cd (much faster)

So that's why it would also be worth it to the dial-up users

Anyhow i dont care much about it because i got a good high speed connection & i'm always using XP Pro (wich i prefer a lot better) i RARELY boot back to Win98se because i'm only using it for older games that wont play in XP even with the compatiblety mode or the VDMsound emulator & that is the only reason why i'm keepping W98se.

BTW: already got the ie6 SP1 on a cd with Dx9c & WMP9 (for win98se) so these goes in to windows 98se right after the installation.

But i really dont see why gape would not at lest put in ie6 , dont see the point of continue using ie5.5 (way to old , buggy , not safe etc..)

EDIT : Forgot to add , Gape could also use Winzip or Winrar to compress & split his SP2 in to a fiew parts for the dial-up users that way you could donwload 1 small part at the time

Exp: 10 small files or more for the dial-up users & just one big file for the high speed user

[soldier1st]

thinker your missing the point unfortunately,the sp already has ie 5.5 updates,since it has those ie 5.5 updates it should have ie 6 updates or remove the ie 5.5 updates

it just makes more sense

the point is about the ie updates,if no ie updates were included(before there were none now there is)then there would never have been ie updates but gape decided to include the ie 5.5 updates,win 98 se doesen't come with ie 5.5,it comes with ie 5,windows 2000 comes with ie 5.5 so the updates would be useless unless 98 came with ie 5.5 but it doesen't sorry to say.

[Gape]

All, you should know that Win98 SE is bundled with IE 5.0. SP contains only updates for this bundled IE 5.0. It doesn't contain any IE 5.5 or 6.0 update. Microsoft's SPs have a similar approach.

[CLASYS]

All, you should know that Win98 SE is bundled with IE 5.0. SP contains only updates for this bundled IE 5.0. It doesn't contain any IE 5.5 or 6.0 update. Microsoft's SPs have a similar approach.

That's what I thought! However, I don't think there is much call for updates to IE55 here, just for IE60SP1. The "correct" answer is to either leave it at 5.0 as it is, or to bring it all the way to IE60SP1 with all known updates, unless you just want to do the long approach of making anyone happy for all possibilities, which would open a time-consuming door: Everyone might have a pet version they want to see:

IE501

IE501SP1

IE501SP2

IE55

IE55SP1

IE55SP2

IE60

IE60SP1

not to mention various beta releases of any and all of the above.

I can understand doing nothing but updating that which must be there, namely IE50 be brought to the best level possible, since it would usually be there, unless removed by 98lite or IEradicator. But I would also desire updating IE60SP1 to encompass the 28 updates I know of [are there more? ] to get us to as good as it gets, etc.

And again, to make this clear: Some of these updates are NOT part of any cumulative "rollup" updates you get from Windows Update which in turn are generally either IE updates or OE updates. Thus, the SP could do us the service of making it possible to be OTHERWISE up to date needing only any follow-on updates that WOULD be available from Windows Update, assuming there even will be many more of these. I wouldn't have a problem where the SP did all the "dirty work" thus all I had to do was goto WU to get some more recent fix and then expect the SP to "trail" WU by some reasonable period of months, etc. And when MS declares all IE versions obsolete other than wherever IE60SP2 lands at that point, then the SP would essentially be final [other than any other ideas we dream up or other unrelated fixes come to light, etc.]

As to the problem of size, why can't the SP check to see if the need to update what you have exists and also an optional update file to accomplish it it also exists? That way if you really want it you can download it while if you feel it's either burdensome or not to your liking it can be ignored, etc.

Even with all of the versions of IE out there, all fixes to all of them, all of their original releases, the entirety of the SP, and any additional fixes any of us want to dream up, etc., the whole scope of such an item still fits comfortably on a single CD. Distribution of such a disk would be desirable, and I'm sure there are people who would help get such a thing to those who needed it, etc.

cjl ["think big"]

ps: Gape, glad you are back; I was away on vacation and heard you were sick; hope you are better!

[erpdude8]

Not going to happen, CLASYS. IE 5.5 may be too old for some users but

it still runs just as good as IE 6.

Windows 2000 comes with IE 5.01, soldier1st. Win2k SPs update IE 5.01.

Windows Millennium comes with IE 5.5. Windows XP comes with IE 6.

About the Distribution of the Win98se SP on CD, NO WAY!

[erpdude8]

windows 95 is dead but windows 98 is not dead,it will live on past win me

Wrong, soldier1st. Microsoft will end support for both Win98 AND WinME

on June 30, 2006 as noted on their MS support lifecycle pages.

[Thinker]

All that i'm saying is if you like to put your w98 up to date (wich you should) then there is no point of installing the SP2 (or any) from Gape because there made for the ie5.5 & not 6 so if you update to ie6 then no need to update your 5.5 wich wont be there anymore.

no wonder why some of you guy got problems & have to install thinks like lite98 or other things you dont need if you install everything the right way & up to date

Windows , dX , Board Bios , etc... there all made for fixing some bugs & compatibility issue.

but do what you want i dont care much i was just making some suggestion wich i thought would be great to have for all

Anyhow i saw this forum because i was looking as a way include all my updates (ie6,dx9c,wmp9) into my cd of win98se (like i did with XP Slipstream) so this way you just format instal win98se & no update to do all ready to go like my XP cd his now with SP2 included ,oh man! that is just a time saver.

[CLASYS]

I have similar sentiments regarding saving time during installation, a seemingly interminable process much of the time.

Since I virtually always am installing IE 60 SP1 and ALL of the updates over <no IE there presently because this is 98lite eliminating IE 5.0 before I start> I would want an easier way to install all of the updates than just doing them "the hard way". It would seem that an SP having an optional feature to do this is a reasonable request; making it mandatory is as foolish as not being allowed to ask to have it at all.

However, the main event is apparently unclear to many of our readers/posters:

1) You CANNOT GET NO WAY NO HOW some of the updates that are in the SP because MS has decided to make them unavailable for whatever twisted/lazy reason they choose. In spite of that, some of us have come across either the updates themselves or the vital components of the updates that make it possible for Gape to include them in the SP.

2) Even if you have all of the updates in INSTALLABLE FORM [which NONE OF US HAVE ALL OF NOT EVEN GAPE!] it just takes an insane amount of time to install them piecemeal. This I can say from the dubious "experience" of having most of them and doing all of them manually. I really don't look forward to doing something again that is "painful" times about 1.3x assuming I had those 30% more I don't have in stand-alone installable form, etc. 70% of the job is too much of a pain!!

3) Most of them DO NOT COME FROM WINDOWS UPDATE either presently or in some cases ever. Yes, Windows Update has tended to "lose" a few updates over the years. But it NEVER represented the majority of updates some of you have been manipulated into thinking it should/does/ought to be, etc. BTW, that also goes for WinXP where the actual number of post-SP1 updates that were ever on Windows Update was a cruel joke compared to the number actually available if you "dug them up". [Last year, I had a catch phrase: "I have all 167 of the 45 updates you can get from WU".] [Yes, I know XP is at SP2 now, and largely this is moot, as long as you can run all of your drivers/apps under SP2!!!!! ]

4) For unknown insane MS reasons, some of the relevant updates are available, but NOT DIRECTLY INSTALLABLE into 98SE. Sometimes there seems to be an "agenda" to a hotfix, such as "This thingie only installs on ME" even though clearly the update has nothing specifically to do with ME, rather than the 9x "family" which includes 98se. The SP may not be needed to overcome this IF YOU WANT TO DO ALL OF THE WORK to overcome this, but it IS work. And sometimes you can't get it to work at all. The SP can and will overcome this because its vantage point allows the files to be installed anyway, etc.

5) Various people who congregate here [and some "silent" others who aren't vocal/don't have the time to "chat" ]have done work on finding files that enhance 98SE but were never disclosed by MS as to their relevance. For example, Win2K updates contain files that are useful to 98SE, but aren't documented as anything other than an update to Win2K. The SP will provide them; for most of us, there is NO OTHER WAY to put them in because we would have to learn how to trick the O/S into accepting them. [i know, this is more of a problem in ME or newer, but the point is that we really don't have the bulk of people here wanting to wantonly patch their systems to death manually!]

This is why we are here folks; it's not for "convenience" as much as a virtual necessity that we need the SP, and wanting it to be as complete as possible is a laudable goal in and of itself.

cjl (Go get em, Gape!)

[zoem]

erpdude8: i believe the 9x kernel will live on and people will further find ways to make it live. look at BeOS? If their were more people developing drivers, this system would be kick-a** for sure.

[soldier1st]

erpdude8

sorry i didn't state more clearly what i said

what i meant to say is even though 98 won't be supported after june 30th 2006

it will be used by many for many more years to come

win9x will live

look at what gape is doing for win 9x,he is helping to keep it alive,and mdgx,there are many that believe win9x is still a viable os just it needs rebooting afterawhile but thats a minor problem that we can live with,xp doesen't need rebooting as much but it has trouble with some dos games that win9x doesen't but who plays dos games now?i used to but no more

[Gape]

Windows 98 Rocks !

[erpdude8]

Good points, zoem and soldier1st. Windows 98 AND ME will live on past mid-2006.

Use your brain, CLASYS as to why MS won't release certain updates or 'hotfixes'

as MS calls them. Think about it. Many of the Win98se hotfixes listed in Microsoft's

support articles were designed to fix VERY MINOR problems and are NOT designed

to be installed on every PC using Win98se. Not all Win98se updates will be

featured in Gape's Win98se SP and some will have to be left out because they

are either older or have cause more problems than fixing them. Microsoft would

get criticized a lot more of releasing updates that do more harm than good.

Take for instance the Q252187 fix for Win98se. This was featured in a much

older version of the Win98se SP. In newer versions of the Win98se SP the

updated file from MS article Q252187 was taken out of the SP because the fix

from that article caused lockups before Win98se loads on many systems than

fixing the lockups on some systems. The Q252187 patch was made to resolve

a 'specific' problem for the SPECIFIED computers ONLY!

Bottom line is that the hotfixes MS made were designed to resolve 'specific'

problems mentioned in their articles and are NOT for everyone. My advice

is to install the patches you think are essential and AVOID the others that are

not needed for your machines. That should take some stress off downloading

updates.

[soldier1st]

and to add to that,only download updates that you need or are affecting you,gape will include updates that affect everyone not just specific updates,it's alot easier to fix a problem if it affects everyone rather than specific systems,right now ms will only release critical updates and nothing else till june 2006,CLASYS should indeed use his brain erpdude8,erpdude8 is right,ms would get criticized heavily,i know windows 98 is getting old but it's viable,to some it is not a viable os,it still works on new hardware and software just not as much now than say when it was first released,windows 95 is too old and in indeed doesen't work for hardware thats new,when it was first created it was the greatest thing for windows and ms but now thats ancient,some software and i mean some and very little hardware still work for windows 95.

[jeffredo]

I actually replaced Win XP with 98SE on an older PC with a Celeron 1.4 and 384MB of RAM. It ran XP fine, but it runs better with 98SE. Faster and just as stable. I have it fully patched from Windows Update, plus SP 2.0. It runs great and I have a good number of programs and software installed. I have run into just two apps that do not support Win 98 anymore. The most suprising one is Microsoft's Intellipoint mouse drivers for my Intellimouse 4.0. XP and 2000 only! Thanks to Gape and everyone involved for helping keep this OS viable.

[soldier1st]

see people even though ms will stop sopporting 98 ppl like me and others will continue to use it,not as many apps work under 98 thats the only down side but thats small,i had 98 as my 4th os but since i got rid of 2000 it is now my 2nd os,my main os is xppro+sp1,my 3rd is xppro+sp2,i'm actualy under 98 at times more than xp,if 98 didn't have a resource problem it might have become my main os(at one time i was my main os for years,now xp is(not sp2 as some apps don't like it,xpsp1 everything works under it)the apps i run are resource intestive so i try to find ways of keeping 98 with as much resources as possible.