profiting off of 9-11

[FthrJACK]

the scum who try to profit off of 9-11 get right under my skin, today i got this in my inbox...

Kathy" <Kath@email.net>  

   

Reply-To :    

<Kath@email.net>  

 

CC :    

<fthrjack@hotmail.com>, <ftomisin@hotmail.com>  

 

Subject :    

9-11-2001  

 

Date :    

Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:40:24 -0460  

Dedicated to September 11, 2001

Get your collectible Dollars today!

George W Bush Dollar Bills

Each bill has the look and feel of real U.S. legal tender.

But are intended for novelty and collectible purposes only!

Get yours today and give them to you friends and family.

These bills are extremely popular!

Click Here

i think this is something to do with that notorius spammer who tried profiting off of 9-11 just after it happened. makes me sick

[Drewdatrip]

Fecking bastards!! I have noticed alot of this BS,forinstance ever since 911, many cary companies have releaced models with some paterotic name like the Jeep Liberty and many others!!! it just makes me sick that big bizness would do such a thing just to make profit margins go up a bit!! What as******!!

-Drew

[XPerties]

Just dont jump tp conclusions on things tho....Some items I have seen are for foundations, so check them out first and see if its helping the people and releif fund. If its not then run them over with your car and feed the left overs to the seagulls

-Xp

[atomizer]

CORRECTIONS IN GREEN

As hard as this may be to swallow for some (as it sure as heck was for me at first), an abundance of evidence to support that 9/11 was a false-flag operation is absolutely OVERWHELMING once you start poking around. It's easy to come across several hundred resources a day, none of them tribute sites. Do your own research. I've read hundreds of documents, including many from gov whistle blowers (US and UK), eyewitnesses, declassified gov docs, dozens of first responders and watched hundreds of hours of video. Anyone still clinging to the "official story lie" needs to do the research because all the answers are in plane sight.

This war is all about power and the control of petroleum (natural gas and oil) and has absolutely nothing to do with terrorists. This country was never more hated in history, nor was it ever under more danger from real terrorist attacks. Do the research; find out why we are spending more than any other country on our military; why we are occupying more countries than at any time in history. Find out why we're building bases in Africa and why many of the ones in Iraq line right up with oil lines and proposed oil lines (Halliburton). Ask questions! Do you know invasion plans have already been drawn up by Cheney for the invasion of Iran? And that the use of nuclear weapons is being discussed (if not already approved) to bust hardened Iranian military installations that can't be destroyed with conventional bombs?

These are probably the top 3 must-see videos that i've found, though there are many, many more (better to watch in order):

1) William Rodriguez: 9/11 Hero

2) Dr. Steven Jones, Prof of Physics, BYU

3) 9/11 Truth: Denial Stops Here - From 9/11 to Peak Oil and Beyond

Also see the TerrorStorm vid (in my sig). There is no problem with redistributing it or translating it into different languages, though the author would like a copy if you do.

If you want to take action you'll find NO shortage of resources as this issue keeps gaining more support, even 5 years after the event. A Zogby poll was done in NY a while back (released Aug, 2004) and it was released to all main-stream media. NONE OF THEM PUBLISHED THE RESULTS. It showed that ~50% of NY'ers felt the government knew in advance (this is already well proven and well documented) and 66% wanted a new probe to dig into what the 9/11 "omission" commission missed (victims families compiled a list of ~165 questions and ~30% were answered). Find out exactly WHO headed the commission and the answers will be crystal clear as to what the motives of the commission were. Many other countries are well aware of this -- the US citizens are the ones in the dark because main-stream media (CNN, FOX, AOL) are owned by military contractors (Westinghouse, GE) who have members of corporate oil sitting on their boards. You can find out what is going on, but it's certainly not going to be handed to you on a silver platter by CNN. Look at the references i provided.

Quick Facts:

FACT: Jeb Bush, George's brother, ran security for the WTC and Dulles

FACT: NORAD scrambles ~100 intercepts/yr.. Average response time: 10 min. Yet NO JETS were scrambled until after the Pentagon attack on 9/11. Bush sat on his behind in a school reading "My Pet Goat. Why? To not scare the children? Protocol called for him to be IMMEDIATELY EVACUATED by the Secret Service. Or was he somehow magically safe behind an invisible deflector shield at a publicly announced photo-op in a public school while "terrorists" were flying around blowing things up?

FACT: NO STEEL BUILDING IN HISTORY HAS EVER COLLAPSED DUE TO FIRE, or even a combination of structural damage AND fire. Don't believe it? Prove it wrong.

FACT: Thermal imaging done by NASA several days after the collapses showed hot spots well in excess of 1,300 F. JP-8 jet fuel (nothing more than refined kerosene) burns at a maximum of 1,800 in optimal conditions with a constant supply. Estimated temp of fire inside the towers: 1,300 F. How could temps in excess of 1,300 F be recorded days after the collapse? AFTER thousands of gallons of water has been dispensed? Where did the molten piles of metal found under WTC 1, 2 and 7 come from if the fires were not nearly hot enough to melt steel?

FACT: Steel melts at over 2,500 F and loses about 1/2 it's strength at 1,100 F. In the Windsor building fire in Madrid, which burned totally out of control for ~20 hours, the ALUMINUM DESKS did not melt, nor did the building collapse. One Meridian Plaza in Phili was totally consumed by fire for 18 hours. Never collapsed. Many more examples are available of fires in steel buildings that burned much longer and hotter without ever collapsing. Yet 3 buildings, for the first time in history, and on the SAME day, did exactly that.

FACT: The VAST majority A significant portion [18-OCT-06] of the jet fuel burned off OUTSIDE of the buildings in the fireballs we all saw. Experts agree the remaining fuel would've burned off in ~20 min.

FACT: Simple (like VERY simple) physics dictate that a building CANNOT FALL AT NEARLY FREE-FALL SPEED on it's own, yet all 3 buildings on 9/11 did exactly that.

FACT: Buildings DO NOT simply collapse into their own basements (demolition is something i have some experience with). If there is structural damage, they topple. How do 3 building3, with isolated pockets of fire, (WTC 1, 2 and 7) all collapse symmetrically into their own footprints? I have to wonder if i ever saw such a thing in a cartoon, much less in real-life.

FACT: If the fires were SO hot, why is there photographs of people standing in the gaping holes left by the planes after the initial fire subsided? Why was the smoke black, indicating a fire starving for oxygen?

FACT: Almost every one of the 700+ (over 1,000 according to Cheney) "terrorists" arrested in connection to 9/11 was quietly released.

FACT: ~9 of the "terrorists" have been reported by generally reputable resources such as The Chicago Tribune, The Guardian, The Telegraph, The BBC and The LA Times, to be alive and well in other countries. Atta's father claimed to receive a call from him on Sep. 12, and that is probably the least creditable report. Some of them are working in the airline industry. Of course these reports were ignored by the 9/11 "omission commission".

FACT: The DOJ admitted that the identity of several of the "terrorists" is in doubt.

FACT: There is NO MENTION of 9/11 on the FBI web page for Usama bin Laden. When questioned about why, the FBI's chief of publicity said the reason is because the FBI HAS NO HARD EVIDENCE CONNECTING BIN LADEN TO 9/11. What is this war based on again?

FACT: There was an explosion in the BASEMENT that set off the sprinkler system and killed/burned workers SECONDS BEFORE THE FIRST PLANE EVER HIT. There are dozens of witnesses to support this. Explosions in the lower levels may have been caused by jet fuel which spilled down the freight elevators. [18-OCT-06]

This just goes on and on and on for ever. Do your own research. Look at history and see why false-flag OP's are nothing new and learn about the processes.

VIDEO RESOURCES FOR STUDY:

Studying the events surrounding 9/11 is no easy task. It is a highly complex issue to begin with, and it researching it is only made more difficult by the wide variety of opinions that different people hold. You'll come across everything from "there were no planes, they were drones" to the Britney Spears approach, "i think we should just trust our government". The truth lies somewhere in the middle and and it's up to you to do the research. I will tell you this: if you're looking for the truth in a can, forget it! There is no single "secret document", film, news article, or any kind of neat little package that will throw everything into perspective and provide a convenient answer. What there is, is a lot of data and when put together, it should provide you with an answer.

Here's some pretty creditable resources to get you started. These will make a lot more sense if you watch them in the order they're listed.:

GENERAL:

UNCOVERED: The Whole Truth -- This is required viewing for anyone wanting to know the truth about the US Invasion of Iraq. Our soldiers are dying because of a lie.

A New Standard for Deception by Kevin Ryan -- Kevin Ryan pokes a LOT of holes in the NIST reports. He is only one of many.

Improbable Collapse : The Demolition -- Pretty good introduction that pokes a number of holes in the official story.

Building the World Trade Center, 1983 Documentary -- Optional. I think it's pretty interesting.

Northwoods documents: false flag attacks -- A very quick lesson in false-flag operations. The example used here, Operation Northwoods, was killed by Robert McNamera.

United States World Policy -- More examples of US foreign policy (may be disturbing to some).

CNN: 9/11 Cover Up -- The curtain is pulled back to expose "Able Danger".

William Rodriguez: 9/11 Hero -- William worked as a head janitor at the WTC for 20 years. The republicans wanted him to run for Congress. He helped introduce legislation to aid victims of 9/11 that the government could care less about. He was offered millions. One of the places he lived after 9/11 was under a bridge. He gave up the money and the power and, instead, decided to hold on to his values.

Thermite -- A very funny, but good intro to thermite (which is slightly different than thermate).

Alex Jones Interviews Steven Jones -- A possible answer as to why molten metal (steel, not aluminum) was found under WTC 1, 2 and 7, even though all of the experts agree that there was no fuel source available to melt steel. His theory is well supported by other professionals as well.

WTC witnesses to explosions -- More testimony of explosions, but don't weight this too heavily.

The Oil Factor: Behind the War on Terror -- This film provides a lot of material that should easily provoke more questions. It does a great job of connecting the dots between 9/11 and the current turmoil in the world today. BE SURE TO WATCH THIS!

9/11, Shock & Awe: clip from Hijacking Catastrophe -- Further evidence as to why we illegally invaded Iraq.

9/11 Truth: Webster Tarpley Speaks in Seattle, April 1, 2006 -- Digs deeper into the politics of the war. Very good material.

Barry Zwicker: NORAD on 9/11 -- Presents the more popular theory as to why NORAD failed to responded (the least popular one being that NORAD was simply ordered to "stand down").

9/11 Truth Speakers at Herbst Theater, April 21, 2003 -- A deeper look into the politics driving the Bush administration.

TerrorStorm -- Alex Jones blasts... well, pretty much everyone. This is a recently released overview of the events surrounding 9/11.

OTHER:

These next 2 document the Israeli intelligence operation they were running in the US prior to 9/11 (they will not release the details of any evidence regarding 9/11)

Israeli spies part 1

Israeli Spies part 2

OPTIONAL:

A lot of this just reinforces the above.

First one is 2 parts. I DO NOT necessarily agree with the Pentagon theory they deal with here, but there is a lot of other information worth looking at. It's worth it just based on the entertainment value

September 11th the Con the Conspiracy

September 11th the Con the Conspiracy

The Cover-Up of Pre-9/11 Intelligence: What's Going On? -- Some very good and creditable evidence presented here. Mentions the illegal destruction of 2.5 TB (terra bytes) of data related to "Able Danger". WARNING: Some mild language.

DOCUMENTS FOR STUDY:

NIST WTC Publications -- This is the official, governments version as to why the WTC towers collapsed from the National Institute of Standards and Technology. This is their final report, issued Sep.-2005.

FEMA: World Trade Center Building Performance Study -- Federal Emergency Management Agency report on 9/11.

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (9/11 Commission) -- Official 9/11 Commission report dealing with events surrounding 9/11.

OTHER RESOURCES:

9/11 Study References -- These are some of the resources i used for my study. In addition i have collected ~3.5 GB of data which i have stored locally.

I created a slide show that covers some of the basics regarding the events surrounding 9/11. This short introduction to a highly complex issue is an attempt to connect the dots from what a false flag operation is, through 9/11, and on to the war. 3 formats available:

9/11 Red White and Blue Flags -- MS PPT

9/11 Red White and Blue Flags -- OOo Impress (OpenOffice.org)

9/11 Red Flags -- PDF

Edited October 20, 2006 by atomizer

[atomizer]

COINTELPRO: Joyce Riley, RN explores the dark side of government funded projects designed to subvert the United States Constitution and undermine our freedoms.

http://www.undersiegemovie.com/media/riley.wmv

Dr. Rima Laibow illustrates from an FBI educational brochure how U.S. law enforcement personnel are being trained to identify potential domestic terrorists by "thought" profiling.

http://www.undersiegemovie.com/media/laibow_fbi.wmv

there are hundreds of examples like the above if you look around. this is nothing new.

[atomizer]

Even after hundreds of hours of research, and possessing a decent knowledge of what is going on with our government and world affairs as a result, i still stumble upon things that completely shake me to the core now and then. This video did exactly that. It touches on many things, but particularly the path that our leaders are following and what is in store for us. Again, don't take it as fact, nor anything i've said for that matter. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! For me, as someone who has done the research (and continues to do so), this video mostly just helps to reinforce what i already knew, though there were a few chilling things brought up i'll be looking into.

The only part of the video that is highly questionable to me is the suggestion that planes other than commercial airliners may have been used to smack the towers and i almost didn't link to the video for that reason. However, there is so much more indisputable information revealed that "they" don't want you to know, that i have to bring this to your attention. Besides, who or what hit the towers is of little consequence at this point. Mainly it does a pretty good job of explaining WHY we don't know what is going on and why people like me, who speak out against the events surrounding 9/11, are often seen as "conspirators". In fact, i don't deal in theroy, i deal in facts. If you do your own research, you'll understand that if you want to find "conspirators", you need look no further than our world leaders.

One Nation Under Siege

[nitroshift]

Although I have lost 2 friends in the 9/11 attacks, I'd rather stay out from any comments. Simply it's not my problem. However, I don't see why you posted 3 threads in a row when you could have made just 1 .

[Delprat]

Very interesting posts, but i think you're messing and mixing things not directly related, like the war in Irak and 9/11.

I explain : if, like you seem to be supposing (or at least suggesting), no terrorist attack was made on 9/11 and if "governement conspirators" were aware of "something hidden", then you just can't link that to the war.

I think you may start from that war, its motivations, its objectives and the people-who-decide (governement ? industrials ?... ?) involved in to retrace back the History.

If you take a look to manuals, you'll see that World War 1 (1914-18) began few time after Austrian's Archiduc was killed by a "terrorist" (using nowadays vocabulary). It just was an unimportant event for entire Europa (that is, not justifying millions death), but it's still the trigger historians keep.

Now, five years after, the most important things are :

- respect people who died in WTC and their families

- respect and help people in Irak : most of them are civilians like we, they have nothing to do with this war, and they suffer (or die) from some willing more power ("personal" power or "energetical", that's not the question)

In short : stop thinking "FACTS", start thinking "PEOPLE".

« More to say ? Yes, War Sucks. » (cf. Starship Troopers)

++

[nitroshift]

« More to say ? Yes, War Sucks. » (cf. Starship Troopers)

I agree. Unfortunately I have seen what a war means and what leaves behind...

[atomizer]

Very interesting posts, but i think you're messing and mixing things not directly related, like the war in Irak and 9/11.

I explain : if, like you seem to be supposing (or at least suggesting), no terrorist attack was made on 9/11 and if "governement conspirators" were aware of "something hidden", then you just can't link that to the war.

Just to make my position 100% clear, i am not suggesting or supposing that 9/11 and the events surrounding it (including the war) are connected, i am flat out stating that they are and that there are mountains of evidence, including declassified government documents, expert testimony, photographs, recordings and video to back that up.

Your point is a very valid one and precisely why i highly recommend you do your own research. I cannot begin to connect all the dots or elaborate on all of the details or evidence which is readily available for you to study should you be so inclined. Nor am i suggesting anyone should believe me and take what i've presented at face value. Actually, i would much prefer people did not because there is so much more to this and people need to investigate on their own. I assure you that anyone with a semi-functioning mind that approaches this with the attitude of doing the research FIRST and not caring about where the chips may fall is in for a very rude awakening.

As for the remainder of your post, i fully understand your point of view and any agitation you may feel at what i have presented. I fully understand it because, several months ago, i would have felt the same way. This is why it is critical that you do your own research. Look at the resources i've provided. Look at the 9/11 Research Sources bookmarks i've collected. Prove me wrong.

Edited October 9, 2006 by atomizer

[epic]

To make a long subject short... "Grow up and move on with life!"

[atomizer]

i'd actually prefer a slightly longer version -- one where you provide evidence that anything i've presented isn't accurate.

[mark]

many of the ones in Iraq line right up with oil lines and proposed oil lines (Halliburton).

And another way to think of it is that they are trying to protect Iraq's major resource. They would have a tough time of it without any oil.

And that the use of nuclear weapons is being discussed (if not already approved) to bust hardened Iranian military installations that can't be destroyed with conventional bombs?

When has this not been done?

Quick Facts:

FACT: Jeb Bush, George's brother, ran security for the WTC and Dulles

Unless he is lying, his website says he is governing the state of Florida.

FACT: NORAD scrambles ~100 intercepts/yr.. Average response time: 10 min. Yet NO JETS were scrambled until after the Pentagon attack on 9/11. Bush sat on his behind in a school reading "My Pet Goat. Why? To not scare the children? Protocol called for him to be IMMEDIATELY EVACUATED by the Secret Service. Or was he somehow magically safe behind an invisible deflector shield at a publicly announced photo-op in a public school while "terrorists" were flying around blowing things up?

Their objective was to get all aircraft out of the sky. Trying to separate the wheat from the chaff (sorry for the pun). There were no aircraft flying into the country. They were all domestic commercial aircraft. It was a whole new ball of wax. They wanted all aircraft out of the sky.

FACT: NO STEEL BUILDING IN HISTORY HAS EVER COLLAPSED DUE TO FIRE, or even a combination of structural damage AND fire. Don't believe it? Prove it wrong.

FACT: Thermal imaging done by NASA several days after the collapses showed hot spots well in excess of 1,300 F. JP-8 jet fuel (nothing more than refined kerosene) burns at a maximum of 1,800 in optimal conditions with a constant supply. Estimated temp of fire inside the towers: 1,300 F. How could temps in excess of 1,300 F be recorded days after the collapse? AFTER thousands of gallons of water has been dispensed? Where did the molten piles of metal found under WTC 1, 2 and 7 come from if the fires were not nearly hot enough to melt steel?

FACT: Steel melts at over 2,500 F and loses about 1/2 it's strength at 1,100 F. In the Windsor building fire in Madrid, which burned totally out of control for ~20 hours, the ALUMINUM DESKS did not melt, nor did the building collapse. One Meridian Plaza in Phili was totally consumed by fire for 18 hours. Never collapsed. Many more examples are available of fires in steel buildings that burned much longer and hotter without ever collapsing. Yet 3 buildings, for the first time in history, and on the SAME day, did exactly that.

FACT: The VAST majority of the jet fuel burned off OUTSIDE of the buildings in the fireballs we all saw. Experts agree the remaining fuel would've burned off in ~20 min.

FACT: Simple (like VERY simple) physics dictate that a building CANNOT FALL AT NEARLY FREE-FALL SPEED on it's own, yet all 3 buildings on 9/11 did exactly that.

FACT: Buildings DO NOT simply collapse into their own basements (demolition is something i have some experience with). If there is structural damage, they topple. How do 3 building3, with isolated pockets of fire, (WTC 1, 2 and 7) all collapse symmetrically into their own footprints? I have to wonder if i ever saw such a thing in a cartoon, much less in real-life.

FACT: If the fires were SO hot, why is there photographs of people standing in the gaping holes left by the planes after the initial fire subsided? Why was the smoke black, indicating a fire starving for oxygen?

Let's see. I don't believe that any building, that tall has ever had that many tons of steel, aluminum, plastic, jet fuel and human tissue injected into it at 450 mph before. The aircraft sheared out numerous support columns (and the buildings were still standing at this point!!!), the impact and velocity of all the debri peeled off the fire retarding compounds that are coated onto the steel to help protect it from heat and a lot vaporized fuel was injected into the core of the structures and providing an unknown amount of heat (I'm sure someone has calculated it by now). I don't think that the jet fuel was the only thing burning at this point so you are going to have smoke of all colors coming out and people who survived this bit of horror crawled to the open windows for air and help. And a lot of these unfortunate people lept to their deaths to escape that fire. The ground around the towers was littered with bodies before the collapse.

"isolated pockets of fire", give me a break. To the core, several floors. Massive damage.

1300 degrees F. Hmmm, and that was on the outside at hotspots. You say that steel loses half it's strength at 1,100 degrees. I am going to guess that the amount of steel put into that building at that height was not double the amount they thought it required. All that was needed was for the steel to give just ever so fractionally. Once the structure started to move just one little bit, it wouldn't even need any more heat. Nothing would stop that many tons of steel, concrete, glass and everything else that was in there from continuing it's decent. ABSOLUTELY nothing.

I was suprised by how far they didn't go into the basement.

Falling at freefall speed. I don't know what speed that would be. Know-it-alls also said the a dragster would never accelerate faster than a certain amount. Grease monkeys proved them wrong. The buildings accelerated on their own. You can see that in videos. I also recall some one posting something about there being explosives going off on the floors below the collapsing portion of the buildings and showed windows blowing out (and there were only one or two windows doing that on each floor). Obviously they had never seen a balloon pop when you stomp on it.

You might want to look up what a "HAT" fire is. They can't put those out either and they aren't covered by tons and tons and tons of steel and concrete.

FACT: Almost every one of the 700+ (over 1,000 according to Cheney) "terrorists" arrested in connection to 9/11 was quietly released.

"terrorists"? Suspicious characters. And what if it were 2000?

FACT: ~9 of the "terrorists" have been reported by generally reputable resources such as The Chicago Tribune, The Guardian, The Telegraph, The BBC and The LA Times, to be alive and well in other countries. Atta's father claimed to receive a call from him on Sep. 12, and that is probably the least creditable report. Some of them are working in the airline industry. Of course these reports were ignored by the 9/11 "omission commission".

"The Chicago Tribune, The Guardian, The Telegraph, The BBC and The LA Times" reputable? No, they aren't.

FACT: The DOJ admitted that the identity of several of the "terrorists" is in doubt.

And? How many is several? They were trying to hide their identities anyway.

FACT: There is NO MENTION of 9/11 on the FBI web page for Usama bin Laden. When questioned about why, the FBI's chief of publicity said the reason is because the FBI HAS NO HARD EVIDENCE CONNECTING BIN LADEN TO 9/11. What is this war based on again?

"FBI HAS NO HARD EVIDENCE", I believe that has been proven otherwise lately and no, I am not going to go chasing down the info.

FACT: There was an explosion in the BASEMENT that set off the sprinkler system and killed/burned workers SECONDS BEFORE THE FIRST PLANE EVER HIT. There are dozens of witnesses to support this.

Unfortunately, the surviving firemen who have been interviewed and the radio calls never state or show anything like that.

I love a good conspiracy theory.

DL

[atomizer]

had to split this into to posts because of size...

And another way to think of it is that they are trying to protect Iraq's major resource. They would have a tough time of it without any oil.

Granted, that's a weak point on my part because i haven't studied it well enough. Still, if you look at the maps of planned oil lines and the fact that several bases line up exactly with them, that should provoke the question why. Reason being that the lines could have never have been built without the war and that should provoke more questions.

re: nuclear weapon discussions:

When has this not been done?

The point is that the plans were drawn up at all. Why?

Unless he is lying, his website says he is governing the state of Florida.

What does that have to do with the fact Jeb Bush was in charge of security of the WTC and Dulles? That is a simple fact that is easily enough verified. It is also simple enough to verify that his contract ended on 9/11.

Error on my part. It was Marvin Bush, not Jeb.

re: NORAD

Their objective was to get all aircraft out of the sky.

Not true. The FAA, not NORAD, was responsible and did in fact order all planes grounded. NORAD was responsible for intercepting the flights which they do all the time... except on 9/11. If you research this, you'll find that NORAD was in the midst of several war game exercises, one of which involved flying planes into the WTC's and the Pentagon, but of course, as Bush says, "i don't think anyone could have imagined it". If the administration couldn't have imagined such an attack, then why were they preparing for it? The answer as to why they were preparing for it, and especially why they were running so many exercises on that particular day (much of the military, not just NORAD), is simple enough if you look around. Pretty wild that a guy in a cave with a computer can defeat our trillion dollar defense systems, 4 times in one day, without us ever knowing, don't you think?

I don't believe that any building, that tall has ever had that many tons of steel, aluminum, plastic, jet fuel and human tissue injected into it at 450 mph before.

The WTC towers were designed to take the impact of a fully loaded 707 (biggest commercial airliner at the time) at any point, including the base. If you do the research, you'll find that the difference between a fully loaded 707 and the lightly loaded 767's that crashed is not all that great. Furthermore, and i haven't confirmed this yet, evidentially the experts (designers and others) are claiming that the WTC towers could have sustained multiple hits, not just one. There were 2 load bearing parts of the towers; the core and the outer walls. Even the NIST report tells us that probably only a few out of the 47 core columns were damaged.

The fire protection is irrelevant because there was not enough heat to compromise the steel. The fire burned at an estimated temp of 1,300 F. NIST tested about 1% of the steel (because Giuliani shipped the rest to Japan to be melted down, which was completely illegal as this was a crime scene) and found that the highest temperature reached for the members they tested was ~450 F (the paint was still in tact). The vast majority of the jet fuel, which is nothing more than refined kerosene, burned off outside the towers. The rest burned off within minutes.

Also worth mentioning is the fact that 3 million dollars (topped out at 15) was appropriated for an investigation in to the largest loss of life on our soil since the Cival War and it took 411 days for that to happen. Why? Why was something like 40+ million spent on Clinton/Lewinski, yet only 3 for 9/11? Why did the white house not want any investigation at all? Why did the VICTIMS have to push for the 9/11 commission? If you do some research on who Bush first appointed to head it you'll find it was the highly controversial Kissenger -- the master of deception in Vietnam. When asked by the "Jersey girls" if he wanted to tell them anything about his clients, they said he grew uncomfortable. When asked if one of them was bin Laden, they said he nearly fell off his couch. Kissenger was forced to resign and was replaced with the same person that wrote (forget his name) what was to become Bush's preemptive strike policy. Gee, i wonder if that could be considered a conflict of interest? Also, the families wanted to have one family member on the commission. Request: DENIED. Why?

Another thing worth mentioning is the fact that the towers were losing money because many floors were unoccupied and this trend was continuing (the buildings were never designed with massive computer networks in mind). Also, the fire proofing was asbestos and the Port Authority was under increasing pressure to remove it. One contractor provided an estimate of over 1 billion for the job. Yet Larry Silverstien buys the lease for the whole complex, a 200 million initial investment, 6 weeks before the attacks, has special terrorist attack clauses added, and insures it for 3.5 billion, which he was paid (he tried to get 7 billion, claiming each attack was a separate incident). Incidentally, that was the first time ownership of the WTC had ever changed hands. Incredible coincidence? Is it also incredible coincidence that, if you name was Larry Silverstien on 9/11, ALL of you building collapsed and you got the insurance? But if you name was different, and even if you had a building right next to Larry's, you were out of luck because you building stayed standing.

"isolated pockets of fire", give me a break. To the core, several floors. Massive damage.

After the initial fire subsided, there were 2 isolated pockets of fire reported in one of the towers (i forget which). The audio recording of the fireman who reported this is readily available. Much more evidence on this would be available had they not been ordered by the white house to shut up (eidentally the status of the fires and dozens of reports of bombs has something to do with national security now days). Photographs were taken showing people standing in the holes where the planes went in. Read the NIST report (it contains these photographs as well). Where was the massive fire after the initial fuel burned off?

1300 degrees F. Hmmm, and that was on the outside at hotspots.

No, that is estimated internal temp. External is irrelivent unles it were sustained, which it was not. If the max temp of JP-8 is 1,800 F, how can anything possibly burn any hotter? The only materials available were typical construction materials. These were class A buildings, so there was no gas or other fuels (kitchens were all electric). The only other source of fuel is the basement where disel fuel was stored, however the elevator shafts were hermitically sealed just for such an emergency, so burning jet fuel could not have spilled into the basement.

You say that steel loses half it's strength at 1,100 degrees. I am going to guess that the amount of steel put into that building at that height was not double the amount they thought it required. All that was needed was for the steel to give just ever so fractionally. Once the structure started to move just one little bit, it wouldn't even need any more heat. Nothing would stop that many tons of steel, concrete, glass and everything else that was in there from continuing it's decent. ABSOLUTELY nothing.

Again, the max temp mesured by NIST for the steel they tested was ~450 F. Steel loses no significant strength at that temp. Many other hi-rise buildings sustained higher tempatures for much longer periods -- none have collapsed. Hi-rise in phili burned 18 hours. Windsor, 24 hrs. Many others as well.

Falling at freefall speed. I don't know what speed that would be. Know-it-alls also said the a dragster would never accelerate faster than a certain amount. Grease monkeys proved them wrong. The buildings accelerated on their own. You can see that in videos. I also recall some one posting something about there being explosives going off on the floors below the collapsing portion of the buildings and showed windows blowing out (and there were only one or two windows doing that on each floor). Obviously they had never seen a balloon pop when you stomp on it.

Free fall speed for the towers would be ~8 seconds. One of the towers collapsed in 9.2 and the other in just over that. WTC 7 collapsed in ~6. The fact that a building cannot fall at near free-fall speed is dictated by simple high school physics. The buildings collapse accellorated because the remaing structure below the collapsing point was comprimised before the collapsing debris reached it, just as is done in a classic demolition. As for the "squibs" theroy -- windows blowing out below the collapse -- i strongly agree that could have been nothing more than compressed air as a result of the collapse. However, if you watch video of building 7, the same thing occures just before the collapse and the detonations move sequentially UP, not down. What happened to 7?

You might want to look up what a "HAT" fire is. They can't put those out either and they aren't covered by tons and tons and tons of steel and concrete.

Again, simple rules apply: The only fuel available for the fire is what fuel was available -- construction materials, diesel fuel (in the basement after the collapse), plastics, office furnature, paper, etc.. Days, weeks and even months after the collapses, extrodiornarilly high tempatures were recorded. There was MOLTEN METAL found at the base of 1, 2 AND 7. Why? What burned hot enough to melt steel? JP-8 surly cannot do that, nor can office furniture, plastics, wood, or any other construction material. So what was it?

Edited October 10, 2006 by atomizer

[Delprat]

wooo ! long posts i will not read.

just to say : atomizer, i will not do my own researsh on this topic, and i will not try to prove you anything.

my opinion is not far from epic's one (i don't know if he was pejorative, i am not) :

you can be true, you can be false, i dont care (except if it make me laugh, but you're far from accessing this goal ).

if you're true, you can prove it and expose it on public place ; or fail to do so because "consipirators and associates" did a good work hiding their traces (hey, imagine, they may have set "traps" for people like you trying to take them down ? such a "conspiracy" would have required lots of anticipation ! and finding such "evidences" seems to prove there were no "conspiracy", don't you think ?).

if you're false, you're loosing your time.

i don't care because TRUE or FALSE is definately NOT IMPORTANT (yes, if i were speaking before, i'm no longer).

What IS important is WHAT YOU WANT ? !

-> jail Bush and its "team" ? whooo ! it would be very useless for people who die(d) in the WTC and in Irak ! And for those still alive, it would be even less...

-> other thing ? ANY other thing can be achieved without all those "researches", "evidences", ... (and in a MUCH MORE efficient way)

Move on, atomizer, you can say for example that disallowing OPEC members to sell their oil in any other devise than dollar is enslaving both them and you in a viciously cyclic dependant relation ; and this would be a constructive/productive subject.

But the topic you choosed, "conspiracy theory" (as said DL), is making cycles inside itself... you feed it, another feeds it, "consipirators" feeds it, and no one ever eat !

You're owned by these cycles... look over !

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