Newer PC that support legacy software

[173a]

3 hours ago, D.Draker said:

I own a GTX Titan X (Top Maxwell card), the iconic Spellforce series doesn't support MSAA, and with CSAA it would've looked fantastic, I know this because I also own a 780Ti.

Old games don't need VRAM economy.

The OP wanted to run vry old games (securom protected), so we can safely assume his games are approx. up to 2006-2007.

If something doesn't support MSAA, it won't support CSAA either.

[Dave-H]

Off-topic posts removed.

[Dixel]

On 7/31/2024 at 7:40 AM, 173a said:

If something doesn't support MSAA, it won't support CSAA either.

Source, please.

[D.Draker]

On 7/31/2024 at 10:09 PM, Dixel said:

Source, please.

He can't give you the source. No such source exists. CSAA was developed years before MSAA, that's why no source.

Basically, the member made a baseless statement.

[173a]

On 8/1/2024 at 5:09 AM, Dixel said:

Source, please.

Source? I dunno, read it ages ago around the 8800 GTX launch when they have first made the feature available. Maybe look up some nvidia tech presentations where it's better explained, but CSAA uses MSAA as its foundation and then adds it special "coverage" samples, that's why it's most interesting and usable modes perform similarly to MSAA 4x (the 8x CSAA, which is 4x MSAA + 4 coverage samples and the 16x CSAA, which is MSAA 4x + 12 coverage samples). It's apparently also the reason why it can be used with the "enhance settings" driver mode, when the option is not available from the game settings, but 4x MSAA is. I don't know for a fact that MSAA can't be forced in every case where its absent from the settings. Some games like the Chronicles of Riddick in SM2.0 mode have become MSAA-capable around 2007 with certain AA compatibility flags forced from nvidia inspector, but then other games supposedly couldn't do it because of the way that their rendering pipe was set up. It's the reason they've dropped CSAA in series 900, as more and more games were becoming reliant on shader-AA and that was getting all the jaggies in the scene and not just those around the poligon edges.

As far as my personal opinion concerning the quality and whether it's an important feature to consider getting a Kepler gpu over a Maxwell, I feel, that it's not important even for the games where it's supported. Its sub-pixel resolution is worse that MSAA 8x and it can be seen in games with lots of fine details like Company of Heroes for instance (even in 1920x1080) and perhaps other RTSs, on the other hand it's a good AA mode for Crysis, where it looks almost as good as 8x MSAA (but it's a fast paced game to pixel-hunt the differences anyway) and really makes a difference in 1920x1080 for gpus like GTX 560 and the like, however it'll make much less of a difference when you compare GTX 780ti and GTX 980.

[D.Draker]

11 hours ago, 173a said:

Source? I dunno, read it ages ago around the 8800 GTX launch when they have first made the feature available. Maybe look up some nvidia tech presentations where it's better explained, but CSAA uses MSAA as its foundation and then adds it special "coverage" samples, that's why it's most interesting and usable modes perform similarly to MSAA 4x (the 8x CSAA, which is 4x MSAA + 4 coverage samples and the 16x CSAA, which is MSAA 4x + 12 coverage samples). It's apparently also the reason why it can be used with the "enhance settings" driver mode, when the option is not available from the game settings, but 4x MSAA is. I don't know for a fact that MSAA can't be forced in every case where its absent from the settings. Some games like the Chronicles of Riddick in SM2.0 mode have become MSAA-capable around 2007 with certain AA compatibility flags forced from nvidia inspector, but then other games supposedly couldn't do it because of the way that their rendering pipe was set up. It's the reason they've dropped CSAA in series 900, as more and more games were becoming reliant on shader-AA and that was getting all the jaggies in the scene and not just those around the poligon edges.

As far as my personal opinion concerning the quality and whether it's an important feature to consider getting a Kepler gpu over a Maxwell, I feel, that it's not important even for the games where it's supported. Its sub-pixel resolution is worse that MSAA 8x and it can be seen in games with lots of fine details like Company of Heroes for instance (even in 1920x1080) and perhaps other RTSs, on the other hand it's a good AA mode for Crysis, where it looks almost as good as 8x MSAA (but it's a fast paced game to pixel-hunt the differences anyway) and really makes a difference in 1920x1080 for gpus like GTX 560 and the like, however it'll make much less of a difference when you compare GTX 780ti and GTX 980.

Please tell, where do you get this information? Do you own a 780 Ti? There's NO MSAA available in 700 series*, they only became to ship it with Maxwell.

Here's proof, a screenshot from my personal 780 Ti. Only CSAA at the max 32x settiing can be selected. But no MSAA.

* Probably, 750 Ti/Special Edition does support it, but it's an odd ball, and it was released as Maxwell in the next year, not Kepler, so it doesn't count,

Edited August 2, 2024 by D.Draker

[D.Draker]

And here is my screenshot with a 2004 game Sacred Plus. It only supports CSAA, but not MSAA. Which is not surprising at all.

[Dixel]

12 hours ago, 173a said:

but CSAA uses MSAA as its foundation and then adds it special "coverage" samples,

"Nooope!

MFAA is MSAA where the samples coordinates change each frame. Each frame is independent. MFAA is implemented entirely at the driver level.

TXAA uses previous frames as additional sampling points, and because of this it must be implemented by the game engine (in order to correctly retain previous buffers to pull samples from).

MFAA at high (e.g. 60FPS) framerates will appear visually similar to higher MSAA levels* due to the human eye performing the temporal interpolation, similar to how interlacing worked in the CRT era.

*e.g. for a two-frame sequence of MFAA, 2x CSAA will resemble 4x MSAA, 4x MFAA will resemble 8x MSAA. By using a longer sequence (e.g. 4 different coverage patterns) a greater improvement can be achieved, but will not be as effective without a higher refresh rate (see: MUSE sampling's issues at 60Hz).!"

Source:

https://hardforum.com/threads/csaa-removed-in-900-series-why.1840841/

[Dixel]

12 hours ago, 173a said:

As far as my personal opinion concerning the quality and whether it's an important feature to consider getting a Kepler gpu over a Maxwell, I feel, that it's not important even for the games where it's supported. Its sub-pixel resolution is worse that MSAA 8x and it can be seen in games with lots of fine details like Company of Heroes for instance (even in 1920x1080) and perhaps other RTSs, on the other hand it's a good AA mode for Crysis, where it looks almost as good as 8x MSAA (but it's a fast paced game to pixel-hunt the differences anyway) and really makes a difference in 1920x1080 for gpus like GTX 560 and the like, however it'll make much less of a difference when you compare GTX 780ti and GTX 980.

I agree with this guy, proven by the decades with my Keppler Titan and many games: "why nvidia removed CSAA? I thought was great with much lower performance overhead than MSAA"

link

Edited August 2, 2024 by Dixel
link

[173a]

5 hours ago, Dixel said:

"Nooope!

MFAA is MSAA where the samples coordinates change each frame. Each frame is independent. MFAA is implemented entirely at the driver level.

TXAA uses previous frames as additional sampling points, and because of this it must be implemented by the game engine (in order to correctly retain previous buffers to pull samples from).

MFAA at high (e.g. 60FPS) framerates will appear visually similar to higher MSAA levels* due to the human eye performing the temporal interpolation, similar to how interlacing worked in the CRT era.

*e.g. for a two-frame sequence of MFAA, 2x CSAA will resemble 4x MSAA, 4x MFAA will resemble 8x MSAA. By using a longer sequence (e.g. 4 different coverage patterns) a greater improvement can be achieved, but will not be as effective without a higher refresh rate (see: MUSE sampling's issues at 60Hz).!"

Source:

https://hardforum.com/threads/csaa-removed-in-900-series-why.1840841/

Look, I haven't even mentioned MFAA, but CSAA obviously needs some hardware support and that's why it's gone for good and there is no CSAA 2x, 8x is where it starts with nvidia's AA naming conventions and 8xQ is 8x MSAA.