Seagate external hard drive is XP incompatible

[Cixert]

I have bought a new 5TB Seagate Basic external drive.
https://www.seagate.com/products/external-hard-drives/basic-external-hard-drive/

I understand how to use +2TB drives on Windows 2000 & XP.
https://msfn.org/board/topic/176480-2-tib-limit-size-in-mbr-hard-drives/
When I plug in the drive it is not recognized by Windows disk manager.
So I have connected the drive on Windows 10 and converted the drive from GPT to MBR.
The first thing that surprises me is that MiniTool Partition Wizard and EASEUS Partition Master won't let me partition larger than 2TB on MBR.

So I make an NTFS partition less than 2TB, leave the rest of the drive unpartitioned, and plug the drive into Windows XP.
But the drive letter is still not recognized on Windows XP.
In file explorer the drive does not appear.
It doesn't show up in disk management either (on windows 2000 it shows up but says unreadable).
In device manager the drive is perfectly installed.
On eject hardware the drive appears.
If I try to assign a drive letter with Partition Wizard it doesn't work and also tells me that the size is only 2Tb, instead of 5TB.
Is the Seagate box Windows XP or NT5 incompatible?

Edited September 23, 2022 by Cixert

[Damnation]

@Cixert

The drive is showing up in device manager so XP sees it at least.

Try making a 1.9TB MBR partition and see if that mounts.

[Cixert]

11 hours ago, Damnation said:

@Cixert

The drive is showing up in device manager so XP sees it at least.

Try making a 1.9TB MBR partition and see if that mounts.

It does not mount.
It seems clear that the Seagate box doesn't support LBA48, but I think if I remove the drive to work with an LBA48 compatible interface it might not work either.
This happens:
-I delete the partitions
-I create a new partition with less than 2 TiB
-I close Partition Wizard
-I reopen Partition Wizard.

So I see that there are 2 unformatted spaces:
-1 MiB in front of the formatted partition.
-Remainder of the size behind the formatted partition.

Could this problem happen?
https://msfn.org/board/topic/173265-formatting-an-external-drive-using-different-interfaces/
The difference is that it does not read the disk after formatting on the computer itself.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Cixert

[jaclaz]

Since you have a Windows 10 available, use the fsutil to check the sector size that the disk exposes.

If it exposes 512 bytes/sector, you won't be able to access more than 2.2 TB (a special formatting is possible to access up to around 4.4 TB, but it won't work in XP only in 7 and possibly later)

If it exposes 4096 bytes sector (aka 4K native), then it should be possible to access the whole 5 TB from XP (but the disk won't be bootable, for other reasons).

The fact that all tools you tried set a limit to 2-2.2 TB should mean that the disk exposes a 512 bytes/sector, and as such you cannot go past the 2^32-1 sector llimit.

The 1 MB in front of the partition you created is rather "normal", it is the "new" alignment to 1MB (2048 512 bytes/sector) introduced since Vista as opposed to the traditional 63 sector (cylinder/head alignment) used  up to XP (but XP has no issues with 1 MB alignment UNLESS you use logical volumes inside extended).

The thread you referenced is about a very peculiar external case with two connection interfaces, eSATA and USB)  that provided a "pass through" on one interface and a "translated" one on the other, your disk has only one interface (USB) so it is unrelated, it can only be useful if you need to (tangentially) learn more about the implications of 512/512AF vs. 4K disks.

Check the disk with gdisk:

https://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/

not the most friendly tool around, but the only one that will provide you with the exact data in either the MBR partition table or GPT.

jaclaz

[Cixert]

After formatting as MBR on Windows 10 I have removed the disc from the box.
First, I have connected it through a Logilink USB adapter that I bought in 2017 and that was working with an MBR 4 TB drive.
Then the MBR disk is recognized by all Windows with a false capacity of 561 GB.
A moment when I remembered that I have an older Logilink USB adapter, with different hardware, but with the same external appearance.
Then the disk has been read by Windows XP successfully.
I have tried to format it as both MBR and GPT with various programs, and it works perfectly on XP. Paragon GPT with modifications has worked.
Then I put the formatted GPT disk with 5 partitions back into its original box, then Windows XP again recognizes the disk but doesn't mount it.
Partition Wizard now says that the drive only has a 2 TB partition, which is false, plus a small front partition.

So far these are the conclusions:
-Seagate box does not work on Windows XP neither as GPT nor as MBR.
- Logilink USB adapters with newer firmware work up to 2TB on MBR, with older firmware up to 4TB on MBR and GPT.
-Older Logilink adapters currently have no limit.
It is necessary to make a list of USB adapters that work with large drives MBR in Windows XP.
why is a Logilink model limited to 4TB?
Why doesn't Segate box mount disk as GPT in Windows XP?

Edited September 26, 2022 by Cixert

[Damnation]

7 hours ago, Cixert said:

Why doesn't Segate box mount disk as GPT in Windows XP?

XP doesn't support GPT disks by default.

You can patch it in by swapping out some drivers with some from server 2003 though.

[Cixert]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:42 AM, Damnation said:

XP doesn't support GPT disks by default.

You can patch it in by swapping out some drivers with some from server 2003 though.

Yes, I know the methods and still experiment with them so that there are no errors with GPT disk on Windows XP.

I confirm that Seagate Box does not mount the GPT disks on Windows XP or with Paragon GPT Loader or Windows 2003 drivers.

I confirm that USB Logilink adapters work properly with GPT disk on Windows XP.

Furthermore, I also confirm that USB Logilink AU0028A model does not work with MBR disks larger than 4 TB.
In addition, this same model with the updated firmware has the MBR limit on 2 TB. This is possible a firmware downgrade.
 
Oldest USB Logilink AU0028 (without letter "A") work without problems with MBR discs with 5 TB.

I have five USB Logilink adapters, but only an old model that works without problems with MBR.
Please, you comment SATA to USB adapters that work without problems with MBR disk on Windows XP or Windows 2000.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Cixert

[Cixert]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:28 PM, jaclaz said:

Since you have a Windows 10 available, use the fsutil to check the sector size that the disk exposes.

If it exposes 512 bytes/sector, you won't be able to access more than 2.2 TB (a special formatting is possible to access up to around 4.4 TB, but it won't work in XP only in 7 and possibly later)

If it exposes 4096 bytes sector (aka 4K native), then it should be possible to access the whole 5 TB from XP (but the disk won't be bootable, for other reasons).

The fact that all tools you tried set a limit to 2-2.2 TB should mean that the disk exposes a 512 bytes/sector, and as such you cannot go past the 2^32-1 sector llimit.

The 1 MB in front of the partition you created is rather "normal", it is the "new" alignment to 1MB (2048 512 bytes/sector) introduced since Vista as opposed to the traditional 63 sector (cylinder/head alignment) used  up to XP (but XP has no issues with 1 MB alignment UNLESS you use logical volumes inside extended).

The thread you referenced is about a very peculiar external case with two connection interfaces, eSATA and USB)  that provided a "pass through" on one interface and a "translated" one on the other, your disk has only one interface (USB) so it is unrelated, it can only be useful if you need to (tangentially) learn more about the implications of 512/512AF vs. 4K disks.

Check the disk with gdisk:

https://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/

not the most friendly tool around, but the only one that will provide you with the exact data in either the MBR partition table or GPT.

jaclaz

The disk is 4 KiB native.
I am working without problems with MBR on Windows XP.
I have found many peculiarities in tests with GPT disk that I will comment on in a short time in this other thread.

For example, only two partition programs correctly read GPT disk on Windows XP and only one allows working with GPT partitions on Windows XP, Acronis Disk Director.
 

But I now want to continue solving questions about MBR with 5 TB.

1-If I try to create 3 primary and 3 logical partitions with Mini Tool Partition Wizard in Windows 10 it doesn't work. I had no problems with just 3 primary partitions, one with 3TB. Edit:  With other programs I have had no problems.
If I align the partition with Mini Tool to the size in MB instead of the cylinder, will I have problems on Windows XP?

2-When I create partitions on Windows XP I don't have problems, but I am curious to know why all partition programs have a limit for the smaller size of the cluster with FAT32. For example, if I create a FAT32 partition with more than 600 GB, Mini Tool forces the minimum cluster size to be 16 KiB.
Other programs have other different limits, I remember that Partition Magic forced a minimum cluster size of 32 KiB in +32 GB partitions.
Is there a physical limit?
I can easily format FAT 32 partitions with +1 TB and 4 KiB cluster size with Guiformat FAT32 Format.

3-I would like to know if there is any physical limit so that the most modern Logilink USB adapters do not work with +5TB disks (4 TB limit). And that these with the updated firmware have a limit smaller than 2.2 TB.
I'm still looking for other USB adapters that work with +2.2TB drives. Please comment.

I am also going to comment that I have bought another disk, this time 6 TB Toshiba P300, no computer is able to detect it, neither internal SATA nor external USB. I think the drive is faulty. I've already taken it to the store, all are problems.
There is no real evolution, Mini Tool Partition Wizard 12.5 free has its latest version for Windows XP
https://surgatekno.com/download/minitool-partition-wizard-free/
The evolution of the program has been to add Google Analytics to retail version, 12.6 no longer works with Windows XP. It is now spyware.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Cixert

[Damnation]

@Cixert

Try GParted on linux, I've had good luck with that, maybe it'll let you set a smaller cluster size there.

[jaclaz]

@Cixert

MB alignment on XP is not in itself an issue BUT you SHOULD NOT ever use XP Disk Manager if you have logical volumes inside extended.

See here:

http://reboot.pro/topic/9897-vistawin7-versus-xp-partitioning-issue/

basically when doing even minor adjustments in Disk Manager (such as changing the active/boot status of a primary partition) Disk Manager checks, finds invalid and (wrongly) "corrects" (silently) some sectors offsets in the EPBR chain inside the extended partition making logical volumes in it "vanish", primary partitions are unaffected.

About FAT/FAT32, the generic idea is (should be) that of "optimizing" the volume, now what "optimizing" means is up to debate, having larger cluster size implies more space "wasted" for smaller files but smaller File Allocation Tables, viceversa having the smallest possible cluster size implies having larger FAT's.

MS (in their wisdom) set cluster size depending on volume size, and - strangely enough - documented the default settings (though somewhat wrongly, as there was no FAT32 in NT 3.51 and 4.0):

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/default-cluster-size-for-ntfs-fat-and-exfat-9772e6f1-e31a-00d7-e18f-73169155af95

there is a hardcoded limit in the amount of clusters in a given filesystem, so when the volume grows in size you need to make larger clusters to keep the number of clusters low enough.

In theory you could make very large sized clusters with the consequence that - since the cluster is the minimal unit addressable by the filesystem - even a 1 byte file will take a whole cluster.

They allowed largish clusters (up to 64 KB for FAT16) but later they went for much smaller ones (16 KB for FAT32), the reason being either that of not using too much space for small files or (more probable) to push for NTFS.

The hardcoded limits are:

For FAT16, 2^16-1, i.e. 65,535 in theory, a few less, depending on implementations, as some values are reserved, usually 65524 or 65526 is the actual max

For FAT32, 2^28-1, i.e. 268,435,455 (yes FAT32 is actually more like FAT28 as only 28 bits are used, 4 bits are "reserved")

The idea should be that the smaller size cluster is better, as long as the total amount of clusters is within the limits, but since this implies larger FAT's the overall performance of the filesystem may suffer from it, the MS defaults are a compromise of sorts, particularly for FAT32, where the number of clusters is artificially limited to around 2 millions that at 16 KB/cluster sets the (infamous) FAT32 max 32 GB size. .

But each program (within these hardcoded limits) can decide to use this (or that) cluster size for a given volume size (a few allow you to choose the cluster size), then some tools may not like non-standard values, old thread where dencorso listed in detail how 6-8 million clusters may be a better compromise:

https://msfn.org/board/topic/118623-clone-easily-windows-98-and-xp-in-the-same-computer/?do=findComment&comment=866527

jaclaz

 

[1] Yes, I know these should be called GIB and KIB nowadays

[Andalu]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:10 AM, Cixert said:

I'm still looking for other USB adapters that work with +2.2TB drives. Please comment.

Hi,

I restored an old USB 3.0 External HDD enclosure with ASM1051 chipset. By using disk.sys and partmgr.sys from Win2003, it correctly recognizes a Seagate ST4000LM024 as GPT disk:

 

As shown in the image, it is listed as a local disk in Windows Explorer and Disk Management and not as a removable device, although in the systray it can be safely removed.

 

It is no longer detected when connected as a sata disk, despite the Paragon GPT loader.

 

[Andalu]

After the GPT to MBR conversion the disk is still recognized only when connected as a USB3 device:

 

It is not detected when connected as a sata disk.

[Cixert]

16 hours ago, Andalu said:

Hi,

I restored an old USB 3.0 External HDD enclosure with ASM1051 chipset. By using disk.sys and partmgr.sys from Win2003, it correctly recognizes a Seagate ST4000LM024 as GPT disk:

 

As shown in the image, it is listed as a local disk in Windows Explorer and Disk Management and not as a removable device, although in the systray it can be safely removed.

 

It is no longer detected when connected as a sata disk, despite the Paragon GPT loader.

 

Thanks, with USB original box my 5TB Seagate disk with Windows 2003 drivers as GPT is limited to 2TB, but with any USB Logilink adapter it is not GPT limited, the problem is with MBR disk.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Cixert