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dork

Is Vista a lost cause on modern hardware?

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1 hour ago, jaclaz said:

Not really-really.

The definition is that of a "componentized version of the OS", basically if you include *everything* (every component) at build time, what you get is the "full" OS.

jaclaz

I'm not sure I follow you entirely with your wording.  When I say bare bones I will explain using a silly analogy.  When I think of embedded I am thinking maybe a 10 year old kid.  He/she can move their head, arms, and legs and walk and weighs a lot of less.  Then we we have the regular OS same structure but 20 year old adult except maybe the head, arms, and legs are larger but the functions are almost the same and weighs more (like extra code).

I don't use XP or W7 embedded unless you do to give experimental feedback since I don't run POS.  But embedded OSs are usually more compact than the full sized OS but whether they can run all XP or all W7 applications as good I can't answer that but basic video, audio, keyboard, mouse I would assume function the same as the larger full sized OS.  Just like a 20 year old adult can lift more than a 10 year old kid the adult can do more.

That's my impression of embedded.  I've seen these used on ATMs and RedBox movie dispensers.

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1 hour ago, Tripredacus said:

My avatar is from the back cover of G1 v1 #1b published by Dreamwave.

Edit for jaclaz: For componentized version, that trick of checking all the boxes does work for XP. It doesn't work for 7 because it still leaves some pieces out such as Bluetooth and some other things I forget exactly.

This might be old school but I wish they had made a CGI version of this for a movie:

 

Transformers G1 Space Battle.jpg

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98SE, how long did you use Vista on your hardware? I'm asking since I obviously don't know how long you used it or how extensively you tested it. From what it sounds like to me, you only installed it, ran it for a few minutes, and got rid of it. You can't just test it for a few minutes and claim that it works 100% correctly. You must reboot the OS several times and see if you eventually run into the error. I guarantee you that your situation was just pure luck and that you didn't spend enough time using the OS (or more specifically, rebooting it) to ever experience the error. Situations vary for different users. I also failed to mention that I originally had a Gigabyte board (don't recall the exact model) which experienced the error 95% of the time, and that's when I tried the ASUS H97M board to see if that would solve the problem. I installed Vista and it booted okay for the first few tries, fooling me into believing the issue had been fixed. But eventually it just started doing the same thing as the Gigabyte board. As for the chipset drivers, I guess you don't have to install them if you don't want to, but I've personally found them to improve overall system performance. That's just me.

Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that the problem occurs at random. You can boot the OS successfully 5 times in a row, only to have the 6th attempt fail due to the error and failed services. That number will vary from user to user. Maybe I didn't make it clear before, but this problem is NOT user error. The problem occurred before I installed ANY drivers or software. You can take a bare-bones install of Vista (or Server 2008 for that matter) and the error will pop up eventually. I tried changing almost every BIOS setting there was to change... No effect. Tried swapping hard drives, motherboards, RAM sticks, it's not bad hardware either. Tried different installation media for Vista, and even tried Server 2008, and the error was persistent. Windows Vista DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY ON ANYTHING NEWER THAN IVY BRIDGE. Take it from someone who has not only used the OS on 3 different Haswell configurations, but has friends/acquaintances that have used the OS on completely different Haswell hardware than anything I tested the OS on, and experienced the SAME error. That combined with the fact that Windows 7 and later worked 100% as expected doesn't sound like user error to me.

Even if you don't reboot that often, the boot issue will cause a huge problem when installing Windows updates. One of the first times I used Vista on Haswell, it was installing updates before shutting down, and after it shut down, the infamous "Interactive logon process initialization" error appeared on the next boot, forcing me to hard reset. After doing so, it caused Windows Update to become corrupted (since it couldn't configure the updates on the next boot) and I had to end up reinstalling the whole OS. And even if you don't install updates, that doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that this problem shouldn't be occurring to begin with, and there's no way I'll ever recommend anything above Ivy Bridge for running Vista due to that. I have zero tolerance for instabilities cause by a nearly unfixable problem, the fix being simply using hardware that was designed to run Vista, rather than hardware that was obviously not designed with Vista compatibility in mind. Like I said, if you have the patience to deal with crap like this, you're obviously more patient than me (and probably most other users), haha.

I stand by my original point that if you buy Coffee Lake to run Vista expecting a flawless setup, prepare to be disappointed. That is all. :)

10 hours ago, burd said:

DDR4, i also have a gtx 1060 which is a desktop card in a laptop,i do have the drivers aswell 372.70 which works on 1080,1070 and 1060(maybe even 1050) also im not sure why youre telling all this as i wasnt really complaining regarding vista's bugs(i barely get them at all)i think you have mistaken me for @2008WindowsVista or am i wrong?

I know you probably didn't have any ill-intent by saying that, but for the record I wasn't complaining :w00t: merely explaining the Haswell/Vista situation. Sorry if it sounded like I was complaining, I'll do better next time :rolleyes:

Edited by 2008WindowsVista
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@2008WindowsVista I concur. Vista on Haswell is messy. On a vanilla install of SP2 with no drivers, the startup error will occur at random. Not a pretty sight if you try to install updates. Now I haven't tested any of the newer platforms, but I imagine it's similar. Don't be fooled by a few successful boot tests.

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8 hours ago, 2008WindowsVista said:

98SE, how long did you use Vista on your hardware? I'm asking since I obviously don't know how long you used it or how extensively you tested it. From what it sounds like to me, you only installed it, ran it for a few minutes, and got rid of it. You can't just test it for a few minutes and claim that it works 100% correctly. You must reboot the OS several times and see if you eventually run into the error. I guarantee you that your situation was just pure luck and that you didn't spend enough time using the OS (or more specifically, rebooting it) to ever experience the error. Situations vary for different users. I also failed to mention that I originally had a Gigabyte board (don't recall the exact model) which experienced the error 95% of the time, and that's when I tried the ASUS H97M board to see if that would solve the problem. I installed Vista and it booted okay for the first few tries, fooling me into believing the issue had been fixed. But eventually it just started doing the same thing as the Gigabyte board. As for the chipset drivers, I guess you don't have to install them if you don't want to, but I've personally found them to improve overall system performance. That's just me.

Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that the problem occurs at random. You can boot the OS successfully 5 times in a row, only to have the 6th attempt fail due to the error and failed services. That number will vary from user to user. Maybe I didn't make it clear before, but this problem is NOT user error. The problem occurred before I installed ANY drivers or software. You can take a bare-bones install of Vista (or Server 2008 for that matter) and the error will pop up eventually. I tried changing almost every BIOS setting there was to change... No effect. Tried swapping hard drives, motherboards, RAM sticks, it's not bad hardware either. Tried different installation media for Vista, and even tried Server 2008, and the error was persistent. Windows Vista DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY ON ANYTHING NEWER THAN IVY BRIDGE. Take it from someone who has not only used the OS on 3 different Haswell configurations, but has friends/acquaintances that have used the OS on completely different Haswell hardware than anything I tested the OS on, and experienced the SAME error. That combined with the fact that Windows 7 and later worked 100% as expected doesn't sound like user error to me.

Even if you don't reboot that often, the boot issue will cause a huge problem when installing Windows updates. One of the first times I used Vista on Haswell, it was installing updates before shutting down, and after it shut down, the infamous "Interactive logon process initialization" error appeared on the next boot, forcing me to hard reset. After doing so, it caused Windows Update to become corrupted (since it couldn't configure the updates on the next boot) and I had to end up reinstalling the whole OS. And even if you don't install updates, that doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that this problem shouldn't be occurring to begin with, and there's no way I'll ever recommend anything above Ivy Bridge for running Vista due to that. I have zero tolerance for instabilities cause by a nearly unfixable problem, the fix being simply using hardware that was designed to run Vista, rather than hardware that was obviously not designed with Vista compatibility in mind. Like I said, if you have the patience to deal with crap like this, you're obviously more patient than me (and probably most other users), haha.

I stand by my original point that if you buy Coffee Lake to run Vista expecting a flawless setup, prepare to be disappointed. That is all. :)

I know you probably didn't have any ill-intent by saying that, but for the record I wasn't complaining :w00t: merely explaining the Haswell/Vista situation. Sorry if it sounded like I was complaining, I'll do better next time :rolleyes:

Okay here's what I'm going to suggest to you.

I wrote an extensive clean build write up on this post.

 

If you can do the same on your motherboard and let me know how it goes.  It's critical you disable as much onboard devices as you can.  Use a PS/2 port for the keyboard to complete the install.  If you have onboard USB 2.0 controller just enable that only and disable the USB 3.0.  Use this for your USB mouse.

I do use Vista 64-bit on a daily basis on an AMD Radeon HD 6500 series card and it doesn't crash, freeze, or any unusual behavior.

I also should mention I revert to Windows Classic 98 still mode so I don't use the Aero or the Orb or any of the shiny features in Vista because I wanted it to run fast, smooth, and most importantly stable.

So if you follow my clean instructions and use an AMD Radeon HD 6500 series card.  A good company is Sapphire.  I didn't try other brands because they made the worst GPU coolers and Sapphire has the beefiest I've seen.  Also you might want to hunt down older generation Vista 64-Bit drivers but I think I've been using the latest driver version offered on Sapphire's site which usually is the most stable but just in case the newer drivers aren't optimized and bug free on Vista 64-bit with Aero and other enhancements I'd disable that fancy eye candy and go retro 98 Windows Classic look, disable all animations and other features to bare bones simplicity.

Let me know how it goes.  Don't try an AMD 7000+ or nVidia graphics card for this test so if you want give that a go you might experience different results.  If somehow you are still crashing or having boot issues, I'd say try Asrock or Asus Z87 or skip to Z170 instead and look for the higher tier motherboards and avoid anything below Z class chipset even though it is cheaper.   If you don't to invest too much get a cheap 4GB DDR4 and G3900 CPU seems to be the bare bones for testing it out.

I don't use Gigabyte because they tend to be buggier and flimsier and most pick this brand to get a cheap hackintosh build out of it.  So if you've tried everything I've done then you can conclude Vista can't work.  But as far as stability my Vista 64-Bit Ultimate with SP2 runs just fine but when I have more time I will do more burn in tests and run it 24 / 7.  My biggest issue with Vista is for whatever reason HDCP was not written into the graphics driver so I can't play Blu-rays in Vista but in XP it works and in Windows 7.  Otherwise it would actually be the perfect OS for everything I want done.

I'll try back porting a Windows 7 driver to Vista later to see if that can trick it but for now if you've truly tested an exhausted all the options I've given get back to me then.  I'm pretty confident it's either your Motherboard, Haswell isolated, or any number of hardware related / driver issues but if you start to match the hardware I use maybe that will solve your problem.

If you have time maybe you can use a cell phone and document this error you are getting and upload it to youtube for other's to see.  You never know if someone figured out what is causing it or has the same problem then compare your hardware configurations.

 

 

Edited by 98SE
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27 minutes ago, 98SE said:

 

 

I'll try back porting a Windows 7 driver to Vista later to see if that can trick it but for now if you've truly tested an exhausted all the options I've given get back to me then.  I'm pretty confident it's either your Motherboard, Haswell isolated, or any number of hardware related / driver issues but if you start to match the hardware I use maybe that will solve your problem.

 

 

 

Looking forward to that :)

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1 hour ago, burd said:

Looking forward to that :)

Here's a solid Vista graphics card that uses a single slot and fanless.

I haven't tested nVidia cards in Vista for stability so if you want hard hours tested on Vista this is the card that should do the job.

SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 6450 1GB 64-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card ( 100322L)

$40

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102933&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Video+Cards+-+AMD%2FATI-_-N82E16814102933&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhuX6ypDb1gIVCqtpCh0iWg9dEAQYASABEgJgg_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

AMD Radeon HD 6450 play Blu-rays in XP and Windows 7 but not in Vista which is the only issue that exists for Vista that I could find.  I did a recent test of an nVidia 700 series in Vista and it does not play Blu-rays but works in Windows 7 and 10.  I can't recall if I tested it in XP but let's say it should work.

At the bottom is the Intel HD Graphics which only supports Blu-ray playback on Windows 7.  I should only comment that this only worked for the Intel HD 3000 and 4000.  On SkyLake the Intel HD Graphics can't play Blu-rays in my software so you'll only be able to play 1080P movies that you have decrypted.  That's why I find no value in Intel HD Graphics chips and would rather have more cores.  If they still made XP and Vista drivers I would find them more useful.

 

So those are your only 3 options to choose from today.

I'd put AMD Radeon HD 6450 at the top of any Vista HTPC build component.

 

Edited by 98SE

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You're not understanding my point at all. The issue I'm describing has NOTHING to do with graphics cards.

36 minutes ago, 98SE said:

Haswell isolated

There. That's it. Nail on the head. The problem is isolated to Haswell and all of its successors. If you run Vista on the Haswell platform, you'll experience this error at some point. Doesn't matter what video card you use, what onboard devices are enabled or disabled, or how you install Vista. Those have absolutely no effect.

6 minutes ago, 98SE said:

Here's a solid Vista graphics card that uses a single slot and fanless.

I haven't tested nVidia cards in Vista for stability so if you want hard hours tested on Vista this is the card that should do the job.

SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 6450 1GB 64-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.1 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card ( 100322L)

$40

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102933&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Video+Cards+-+AMD%2FATI-_-N82E16814102933&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhuX6ypDb1gIVCqtpCh0iWg9dEAQYASABEgJgg_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

It'll play Blu-rays in XP and Windows 7.  But not in Vista which is the only issue that exists for Vista and I'm sure nVidia doesn't support Blu-ray playback on Vista either.  The Intel HD Graphics only supports Blu-ray playback on Windows 7.  So those are your only 3 options to choose from.

I'd put AMD Radeon HD 6450 at the top of any Vista HTPC build component.

 

Do forgive me, but I LOL'd when I saw that. You don't need to use a card from 2011 for Vista. The GTX 980 supports Windows Vista just fine, and you can even use the GTX 1080 with Vista thanks to unofficial drivers (you can find them on my Last versions of software for Vista list). AMD's driver support for Vista is far worse compared with NVIDIA (15.6 beta is the last version of the AMD Catalyst drivers that works with Vista which is long obsolete and limits you to AMD GPUs released prior to June 2015).

98SE, I invite you to read more about Vista on my Last versions of software for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 list. You'll find a ton of information there about the current state of Vista's third party software & driver compatibility, and it is updated almost daily so the information there is all accurate and up to date.

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3 minutes ago, 2008WindowsVista said:

You're not understanding my point at all. The issue I'm describing has NOTHING to do with graphics cards.

There. That's it. Nail on the head. The problem is isolated to Haswell and all of its successors. If you run Vista on the Haswell platform, you'll experience this error at some point. Doesn't matter what video card you use, what onboard devices are enabled or disabled, or how you install Vista. Those have absolutely no effect.

Do forgive me, but I LOL'd when I saw that. You don't need to use a card from 2011 for Vista. The GTX 980 supports Windows Vista just fine, and you can even use the GTX 1080 with Vista thanks to unofficial drivers (you can find them on my Last versions of software for Vista list). AMD's driver support for Vista is far worse compared with NVIDIA (15.6 beta is the last version of the AMD Catalyst drivers that works with Vista which is long obsolete and limits you to AMD GPUs released prior to June 2015).

98SE, I invite you to read more about Vista on my Last versions of software for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 list. You'll find a ton of information there about the current state of Vista's third party software & driver compatibility, and it is updated almost daily so the information there is all accurate and up to date.

Btw speaking of vista,i reinstalled vista business on your recommendations,lets hope those palemoon and ie9 crashes disappear for good :unsure:

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1 hour ago, 2008WindowsVista said:

You're not understanding my point at all. The issue I'm describing has NOTHING to do with graphics cards.

There. That's it. Nail on the head. The problem is isolated to Haswell and all of its successors. If you run Vista on the Haswell platform, you'll experience this error at some point. Doesn't matter what video card you use, what onboard devices are enabled or disabled, or how you install Vista. Those have absolutely no effect.

Do forgive me, but I LOL'd when I saw that. You don't need to use a card from 2011 for Vista. The GTX 980 supports Windows Vista just fine, and you can even use the GTX 1080 with Vista thanks to unofficial drivers (you can find them on my Last versions of software for Vista list). AMD's driver support for Vista is far worse compared with NVIDIA (15.6 beta is the last version of the AMD Catalyst drivers that works with Vista which is long obsolete and limits you to AMD GPUs released prior to June 2015).

98SE, I invite you to read more about Vista on my Last versions of software for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 list. You'll find a ton of information there about the current state of Vista's third party software & driver compatibility, and it is updated almost daily so the information there is all accurate and up to date.

I'm only offering you a troubleshooting tool to test if the stability is resolved and not about gaming and if was about gaming then I would actually recommend switching to Windows 7 64-Bit Ultimate SP1 just to access all the titles.  If you're not even giving it a chance then you can keep to your own conclusion which could be your hardware or it could be Haswell only and possibly Broadwell.

At the moment SkyLake is different.  I haven't experienced the problems you are describing and the culprit could be the drivers.  I'd also use the latest GTX Titan X graphics card if I was into the best Vista capable graphics card but like I said before you're trying to troubleshoot the cause of your stability issues so if you're stuck on not giving something I've tested for years of stability we'll leave it at that.

Also you're not using Vista 64-Bit Ultimate in your test while using a completely different hardware Brand and Motherboard so we can't directly conclude what's causing your problems which is why breaking down component by component is the only way.  Until you have a SkyLake to test you can't conclude other than Haswell could not use Vista or something with your hardware configuration is the culprit.

Now if there's a specific game or program that definitely causes problems for you that might be something I could test to confirm if it happens on SkyLake.  If I can replicate the issue then we might be onto something but so far on all my clean install tests I've not seen the problem you described.  And I tend to reimage my clean installs so I can do driver mod tests because once you install a driver it infects the database and if you put the same card back in it'll try and install the old drivers even if you've removed them in safe mode.

I have one Vista 64-bit Ultimate with SP2 which has been running unactivated since last November.  So don't worry about activating your copy when doing the testing.  I'm trying to drag out how long Vista can run without activation.  Now Windows 10 I've installed clean and unactivated and it'd nag you within the first month with constant annoying pop ups.  I was using Windows 7 Unactivated for awhile but I got tired of not using Quick Launch so that's why I'm using Vista for almost a year 24/7 non stop as a DVR and unactivated.

 

Edited by 98SE

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7 minutes ago, 98SE said:

I'm only offering you a troubleshooting tool to test if the stability is resolved and not about gaming and if was about gaming then I would actually recommend switching to Windows 7 64-Bit Ultimate SP1 just to access all the titles.  If you're not even giving it a chance then you can keep to your own conclusion which could be your hardware or it could be Haswell only and possibly Broadwell

 

Do forgive me in case I come off as being snarky, but I sense miscommunication here. Perhaps English isn't your mother tongue?

Nobody was talking about gaming here. But since graphics cards are being mentioned, I myself used a GTX 950 with Vista for about a year before switching to Haswell. It was a rock solid card that I continue to use with 7. The boot issue does not change for as long as you use the 1150 platform itself. I also really hope you aren't actually using GPU's from 2011.. Graphics are the least of Vista's concern.

I'm well acquainted with 2008WV, we both worked tooth and nail to debug and find a solution. Akaik it simply doesn't exist. I used Vista primarily on this setup for about half a year.

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8 minutes ago, 98SE said:

I'm only offering you a troubleshooting tool to test if the stability is resolved and not about gaming and if was about gaming then I would actually recommend switching to Windows 7 64-Bit Ultimate SP1 just to access all the titles.  If you're not even giving it a chance then you can keep to your own conclusion which could your hardware or it could be Haswell only and possibly Broadwell.  SkyLake is different.  I haven't experienced the problems you are describing and the culprit could be the drivers.  I'd also use the latest GTX Titan X graphics card if I was into the best Vista capable graphics card but like I said before you're trying to troubleshoot the cause of your stability issues so if you're stuck on not giving something I've tested for years of stability we'll leave it at that.

Also you're not using Vista 64-Bit Ultimate on top of different hardware Brand and Motherboard we can't directly conclude what's causing your problems which is why breaking down component by component is the only way.  Until you have a SkyLake to test you can't conclude other than Haswell could not use Vista or something with your hardware configuration is the culprit.

Now if there's a specific game or program that definitely causes problems for you that might be something I could test to confirm if it happens on SkyLake.  If I can replicate the issue then we might be onto something but so far on all my clean install tests I've not seen the problem you described.  And I tend to reimage my clean installs so I can do driver mod tests because once you install a driver it infects the database and if you put the same card back in it'll try and install the old drivers even if you've removed them in safe mode.

I have one Vista 64-bit Ultimate with SP2 which has been running unactivated since last November.  So don't worry about activating your copy when doing the testing.  I'm trying to drag out how long Vista can run without activation.  Now Windows 10 I've installed clean and unactivated and it'd nag you with the first month with pop ups.  I was using Windows 7 Unactivated for awhile but I got tired of not using Quick Launch so that's why I'm using Vista for almost a year 24/7 non stop as a DVR and unactivated.

 

Gaming??? I never said anything about gaming! Where are you getting this from? :crazy:

Burd uses Skylake and experiences the error too. He claims that he doesn't experience it as often but he does experience it.

I don't know what else to tell you, so I think I'm just going to end it here. If Vista works for you, enjoy. I really don't know how else to explain it to you. I strongly believe that my conclusion is fact and I have more than enough people to back me up.
Perhaps this will help you to understand, it's a last ditch effort on my part (all of these have been tested. Not all by me, but by other users. The error occurs on all of them regardless of ANY SORT of tweaking, hardware combinations, drivers, or updates.):

Vista+Ivy Bridge= ✔

Vista+Haswell/Broadwell= ✘

Vista+Skylake=✘

Vista+Kaby Lake= ✘

Understand? :P

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1 hour ago, burd said:

Btw speaking of vista,i reinstalled vista business on your recommendations,lets hope those palemoon and ie9 crashes disappear for good :unsure:

Any chance you can pick up Vista 64-Bit Ultimate non service pack version instead of using Vista Business?  This is the version I'd consider using to weed out any problems and match the OS build.  You can add the official SP2 manually on the desktop.  This is how clean I'd start testing.  If I remember the original Vista had bugs and problems which plagued it which didn't help that it was already running on hardware that couldn't handle Vista at the time making Vista seem horrible, slow, and buggy.  It wasn't until SP2 was released that it was actually pretty stable and more so than Windows 7 from my experience.

Have you tried any other browsers like FireFox?  I avoid IE like the plague ever since IE6 due to the easy malware infections but another alternate browser is SeaMonkey.  I do a lot of multitabs in the several hundreds so I'd say if you can keep Firefox memory consumption  under 1GB in the Task Manager it won't go haywire and freeze up or crash.  Most people are probably good with 5 tabs open or closing out their tabs when done and won't experience problems.

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36 minutes ago, 98SE said:

Any chance you can pick up Vista 64-Bit Ultimate non service pack version instead of using Vista Business?  This is the version I'd consider using to weed out any problems and match the OS build.  You can add the official SP2 manually on the desktop.  This is how clean I'd start testing.  If I remember the original Vista had bugs and problems which plagued it which didn't help that it was already running on hardware that couldn't handle Vista at the time making Vista seem horrible, slow, and buggy.  It wasn't until SP2 was released that it was actually pretty stable and more so than Windows 7 from my experience.

Have you tried any other browsers like FireFox?  I avoid IE like the plague ever since IE6 due to the easy malware infections but another alternate browser is SeaMonkey.  I do a lot of multitabs in the several hundreds so I'd say if you can keep Firefox memory consumption  under 1GB in the Task Manager it won't go haywire and freeze up or crash.  Most people are probably good with 5 tabs open or closing out their tabs when done and won't experience problems.

cant do that for 2 reasons
I have the iso of ultimate SP2 only
Also I need to boot Uefi alongside Windows 7 which means i need a minimum of Vista SP1

Yes Firefox 52.4.0 x64 works without crashes but i want to use palemoon i find it quite good, palemoon crashes whilst in the middle of browsing 
 

 

Edited by burd

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How I feel reading this thread right now

 

tLqywX8.png

Edited by 11ryanc
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