Running Windows 98 in 2020 and beyond...

[siria]

Wunderbar98 said: Last working versions Firefox v2.0.0.20 and SeaMonkey v1.1.19 now have even more issues with outdated certs and difficulties establishing secure connections, making them almost non-functional.

KernelEx is so incredibly tiny but really works miracles, it makes Win98 about 10x better! Without it it's really unusable today.
At least the old "basic" KernelEx is a must have, and ran quite stable and troublefree for me.
The newer KernelEx 2016 versions even allow to run goanna based forks of Firefox24, just sadly too buggy yet for my daily use, and giving me probs now to run some old, native Win98 apps (my impression is that modern KernelEx is by default always enabled and cannot be fully disabled anymore).

But if you insist to use vanilla Win98, get the Retrozilla 2.2. browser, somewhere in the forum here. There are 2 versions, from the original author and from roytam, a bit confusing. Still ancient engine from Firefox2 generation or Seamonkey ( I keep confusing those), but it can handle most modern CERTS with TLS1.2.

Those highly encrypted CERTS enforced with all might by Google&Co since 1-2 years are what really destroys the web successfully and completely for old browsers now, blocking all page content.
While the outdated JS+CSS engines are very harmless in comparison, if you don't need the lastest social bells and whistles.

But simply by including those CERTS Retrozilla allows access again to read e.g. twitter, developer.mozilla.org, github (partly), sourceforge (partly) and other crucial sites.

Edited October 27, 2019 by siria

[Wunderbar98]

My cheap gamepad from ~20 years ago still works great but the drivers i copied from the install floppy wouldn't work correctly for some reason, despite numerous re-installs and re-boots. Never had this issue before in any previous Windows 98 or XP installs.

Sucked as it's an 8-button gamepad and Windows 98 Control Panel > Gaming Options only allows adding a '4-button gamepad'. Slow on the uptake, took me a while to figure out that selecting a '4-button flight yoke w/throttle' would work. The direction pad and four default buttons work as normal, the four additional shoulder buttons are recognized as throttle and rudder controls, something like that.

Anyways, now i can play Sports Car GT with working shoulder buttons to simulate manual transmission shifts. The world has mostly moved on, maybe this helps someone else get their hardware configured.

Late edit: To clarify, selecting '4-button flight yoke w/throttle' gets the gamepad running but also check/enable the little Rudder/Pedals box in the Game Controller popup.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Wunderbar98

[Wunderbar98]

Content deleted, duplicate/similar post to above, darn Dillo on Windows 98 isn't ideal for this forum :)

Edited October 27, 2019 by Wunderbar98
PEBKAC

[Wunderbar98]

Hi siria.

Sorry didn't see your post earlier. Thanks for the information. I will likely try KernelEx eventually. For now i want to see how things get along with this vanilla install. Old SeaMonkey is stil my favourite, plan to hack to see if it kickstarts and runs better. You mentioned two versions of Retrozilla v2.2, which one is best to try? Thanks.

[Wunderbar98]

Discovered ancient PupWin98 and got it launching and running Puppy Linux from Windows 98.

Originally based on Puppy v1 but these ancient repositories are all down, not allowing software installs and updates.

With minor modification PupWin98 appears to be able to boot any Puppy release from DOS. I modified PupWin98 to successfully run Tahrpup, Puppy Linux version 6.

Advantages:
- Launch GNU/Linux via Windows 98 when required to run alternative software, such as an up-to-date web browser for banking.
- All the benefits of Puppy Linux: easy hardware setup, firewall, huge package repository, etc.
- No risk of breaking existing Windows 98 installation as it does not over write the master boot record, rather it launches the grub boot loader from DOS.
- Does not require repartitioning or modifying the hard drive, Puppy Linux files stored on the C: drive, no issues with Fat32.
- Easy and clean removal, just delete C:\Puppy and associated files when no longer useful, no registry entries.
- Small hard drive footprint. The tahrpup experimental install used <400 MB of hard drive space.

PupWin98 overview:
http://www.freeveda.org/linux/puppy/PupWin98.htm

PupWin98 download:
https://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_OddsnSods

Puppy Linux major releases:
http://puppylinux.com/download.html

To hack an upgrade, basically just extract the original PupWin98, replace the old image.gz and vmlinuz files with desired Puppy version, update the menu.lst file, copy PupWin98 Puppy directory and files to the appropriate locations.

If anyone wants more detailed hacking instructions let me know.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Wunderbar98

[jumper]

Does Win98 need to exit to DOS or can PupWin98 run in a DOS VM console (with WIn98 still active)?

[Wunderbar98]

Windows 98 needs to exit. A DOS *.bat file launches the user choice menu and DOS launches the grub.exe boot loader. So a reboot is required to switch between Windows and Linux, there's no VM involved. Everything runs lean and efficient on bare metal. The Linux install is modular and clean, won't mess up Windows. If you wanted the boot menu to show everytime, instead of using the desktop shortcut, PUPPY.BAT could be added to AUTOEXEC.BAT.

[Wunderbar98]

If anyone is curious, the default PupWin98 PUPPY.BAT file:

@ECHO Puppy Linux (/PUPPY/PUPPPY.BAT) 2005 1109 1315
@ECHO OFF
ECHO .
ECHO .
ECHO Without entry, will start Linux after 30 seconds.
ECHO .
ECHO . ! !
ECHO . ! !
REM Ready to run Linux or Windows. Press L or W :
choice /C:lw /N /T:l,30 Ready to run Linux or Windows. Press L or W :
if errorlevel 2 goto WIN
if errorlevel 1 goto LIN
:WIN
win
:LIN
C:\PUPPY\grub.exe --config-file=(hd0,0)/puppy/menu.lst
:end

And the default grub config file menu.lst file:

timeout 0
title Puppy Linux
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
kernel (hd0,0)/puppy/vmlinuz root=/dev/ram0 acpi=off PFILE=pup001-none-262144 PHOME=hda1
initrd (hd0,0)/puppy/image.gz

If anyone wants to try, newer Puppy releases use a different structure, a recommended setup might look like this:

C:\PUPPY\PUPPY.BAT
C:\PUPPY\grub.exe
C:\PUPPY\initrd.gz [1]
C:\PUPPY\linux3.ico
C:\PUPPY\menu.lst
C:\PUPPY\puppy_tahr_6.0.5.sfs [2]
C:\PUPPY\tahrsave.2fs [3]
C:\PUPPY\vmlinuz [4]
C:\PUPPY\zdrv_tahr_6.0.5.sfs
C:\Windows\Desktop\PupLinux.pif [5]

[1] Old Puppy releases use image.gz (base Linux file system). New versions use initrd.gz. Modify menu.lst accordingly:
initrd (hd0,0)/puppy/initrd.gz

[2] Put all *.sfs files in to C:\PUPPY\, not C:\, to keep the install clean, ensure menu.lst reflects the directory structure.

[3] A *save.2fs file is created after Puppy first run, you won't have to install it. Contains all user software/settings, easy back-ups.

[4] Put the vmlinux (Linux kernel) in to C:\PUPPY\, not C:\, to keep the install clean, ensure menu.lst reflects the directory structure.

[5] The C:\Windows\Desktop\PupLinux.pif file is just a pointer to C:\PUPPY\PUPPY.BAT and makes itself pretty with C:\PUPPY\linux3.ico.

Additional menu.lst notes:

- In Windows (hd0,0) is typically the C: drive.

- Entry hda1 is the same as (hd0,0), first drive, first partition.

- Entry acpi=off is for power management. Use it the first time, experiment with removal. Most reliable way to boot any system, may not allow full poweroff on shutdown.

- Entries PFILE=pup001-none-262144 PHOME=hda1 may no longer be required, didn't bother to experiment.

This should update PupWin98 nicely.

Once again, PupWin98 can be downloaded here:
https://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_OddsnSods

Download the desired Puppy release from below and extract the required files from the *.iso:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/

Learn more about the releases starting here:
http://puppylinux.com/download.html

[Wunderbar98]

One more thing, the user created Puppy Linux save file *save.2fs can be encrypted if desired. The user is cued during the first Puppy shutdown. As Windows 98 is not generally considered to be as secure as other systems, largely due to compromised web browser support, this is good to know. By default, runnng from Puppy will allow full access to Windows 98 file systems, but Windows 98 won't be able to access the encrypted save file.

[jaclaz]

WIth all due respect , I am failing to see the "huge" or actually "any" advantages, it is simply a grub4dos called by a batch file, what is the advantage of:

1) boot to DOS or Windows (and exit to DOS)
2) run the Puppy.bat file
3) choose between Windows or Linux what to boot

when compared to the "normal" way:

1) boot to grub4dos (installed in the MBR + a few hidden sectors OR called by the PBR/bootsector)
2) choose between Windows or Linux what to boot

Technically, the proposed thingy does not reboot in the passage from DOS to Linux (which may be a "bad" thing as some BIOS tables data might be altered by the previously run Wndows/DOS or a good thing as the transition should be - very slightly - faster than a real reboot) but there isn't  - if I get this right - a symmetrical way to pass from the Puppy Linux to DOS/Windows (using Kexec or similar) so if you are on the Linux and want to go to DOS/Windows you need to reboot anyway.

jaclaz

[Wunderbar98]

Retrozilla v2.2 is pretty nice, spent some time with it. Read the long development thread too, hopefully if the developers have energy they will resume the effort.

I have several coding projects on the go and know the feeling. Usually when a project is ~75% done, hit a wall, don't feel much like keeping on as most of the original challenge and joy is gone, now it's just work.

RZ appears to run best with JavaScript disabled, probably the only reasonably safe way to browse in Windows 98 now anyway. The cert8.db file was same byte count as stock SeaMonkey v1.1.19 and appear outdated.

Running both browsers, now my SeaMonkey system tray icon is the same as RZ, maybe some strange profile crossover.

Tiny Personal Firewall notified of 'System' incoming and outgoing packets and incoming alert for 'TCPIP' kernel driver. Haven't pinpointed the issue but appears to be related to running these browsers.

Cleared all about:config http entries that might call home, deleted all bookmarks, started new profile, disabled JavaScript, etc. Hmmm...

Can't figure out if it's possible to install extensions, NoScript would be nice.

The Get Extensions menu item loads a blank page.

Thanks for the efforts developers. It will be interesting to see if there is any more action.

Addendum. Now reviewing the certs, they are all REALLY updated, like 2036-2039. Maybe that's normal when they are up to date, no expert. Sorry if i jumped the gun. Will need to either uninstall RZ or SM, it seems there may be some sort of crossover issue.

It would be interesting to get feedback from others. Myself, will probably stick with Dillo and SeaMonkey with JavaScript disabled.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Wunderbar98

[Wunderbar98]

Hi jaclaz.

Thanks for your post, nice meeting you.

Agreed. As with all dual or multi-boot systems, there's a lot of booting going on. In addition to the advantages posted earlier, there is NO need to alter the MBR.

For a tech savvy user like yourself, this may be a non-issue. From the perspective of a non-technical user who owns an old Windows 98 system collecting dust, it's a great way to increase functionality of the machine.

Messing with PUPPY.BAT or even AUTOEXEC.BAT isn't going to lock out a user, as these files are processed after the F8 key safe mode boot, so little can go wrong.

Most inexperienced users won't want to mess with MBR, for good reason, as it can result in a non-bootable system. Modifying a few *.bat files is easier than repairng MBR. If the MBR is not repairable and the user no longer owns the Windows 98 install CD or key, they are stuck.

[Wunderbar98]

Still on a Windows 98 in 2019 internet kick. Tried several bonus browsers, fondly remember Netscape Navigator and finally tried the DOS Arachne browser.

This site has an outdated certificate as far as SeaMonkey v1.1.19 is concerned (expired earlier 2019).

On SeaMonkey log in and use of this site is pretty good with JavaScript disabled. Changing View -> User Style to 'None' is required for the login information to properly display. Then change back to 'Default style' for the rest of the forum session until sign-out.

As most of the built-in SeaMonkey certificates are now outdated, this will blank all trust settings. Go to Preferences -> Certificates -> Manage Certificates -> Authorities tab. Select all entries (click top, hold shift, click bottom) and click 'Delete'. When this popup is re-opened the default entries remain, but if you click an object token and select 'Edit', all trust settings have been cleared. So to SeaMonkey these certificates are no longer 'active'. Alternatively view each certificate individually and delete/reset outdated ones.

Then when browsing you need to manually update individual certificates based on the pop-ups, which get added for management under the 'Web Sites' tab. Also in SeaMonkey there are a lot of popups to clear if the system does not have the required security protocols. Due to these hassles, SeaMonkey might be okay for visiting a few select workable sites, otherwise i stick with Dillo.

This old SeaMonkey does not have an easy way to quick clear cache and cookies (multiple preference menu entries) so i run this script after exit. Still learning DOS, forgive if primitive:

:: CLEANUP.BAT
:: SeaMonkey
DELTREE /Y "C:\WINDOWS\Mozilla\Profiles\default\Cache\*"
DEL "C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Mozilla\Profiles\default\kchn3v5h.slt\cookies.txt"
DEL "C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Mozilla\Profiles\default\kchn3v5h.slt\downloads.rdf"
DEL "C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Mozilla\Profiles\default\kchn3v5h.slt\history.dat"
:: Other
DELTREE "C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\*"

[Wunderbar98]

Regarding Dillo and the built-in Google search engine, most results will display a 'cached' link. Cached links will allow Dillo to view the intended page, which may otherwise be inaccessible due to lack of JavaScript functionality or outdated security protocols. So if a search result link does not load the regular way, view the cached document and thank Google.

After all this if a site still does not work i just move on to the next site. Even in GNU/Linux i rarely run JavaScript, there's plenty of information available to read and learn.

A HOSTS file can make browsing more pleasant and safer. Without JavaScript running it's not as big an issue, but it will prevent a lot of gargbage coming through.

Windows 98 has a C:\Windows\HOSTS.SAM file, this is a SAMple file. To activate a custom HOSTS file, copy HOSTS.SAM to C:\Windows\HOSTS and apply relevant entries. Blocked entries should point to 0.0.0.0. I got my list from MVPS, there are alternatives. If manually updating the HOSTS file, use Wordpad to handle the large file. Not sure if a modified HOSTS file works in real time, reboot. Try to load a few entries in a browser for testing, the site should immediately be inaccessible.

Using the same hardware and other OS, including GNU/Linux, a large host file like MVPS will almost cripple internet usage. With Windows 98 there is no obvious slowdown.

Is the internet safe in Windows 98? Is anything safe? Running a firewall, no JavaScript, enabling safer browser settings, using a HOSTS file, maybe not so bad.

Although limited, Dillo is probably one of the safest browsers around. As the code base is small and simpler, there's less room for bugs and problems. By default it doesn't even keep cookies. If running a newer version of Firefox, for example, entering 'about:config' and reviewing built-in 'http' entries doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy.

[Wunderbar98]

Modified the dual-boot PupWin98 system outlined a few posts above. The Puppy desktop link is no longer needed and either Windows or Puppy can be launched from a custom DOS boot menu. The drive's MBR remains untouched. This also allows booting various DOS applications, which have different requirements, and the menu will be easy to modify for future custom initializations.

The C:\WINDOWS\MSDOS.SYS file is set as follows. Ensure the file manager shows hidden files, right-click -> Properties on MSDOS.SYS and uncheck Hidden and Read-only. Use these settings to ensure the custom DOS menu displays at boot:
BootGUI=0
BootMenu=1
BootMenuDelay=3
Logo=0

Important: Disabling BootGUI disables graphic Safe Mode. In an emergency, selecting Safe Mode will only boot to a DOS prompt, user will need to run 'edit c:\msdos.sys' in DOS to temporarily change it back to 'BootGUI=1'.

If anyone knows of a DOS command to start graphic Safe Mode please tell.

The custom DOS boot menu below immediately displays after the F8 Safe Mode boot menu times out. There is no cookie cutter configuration, as each user will have different needs. Below allows access to a variety of options, which defaults to regular Windows 98 graphic mode in 5 seconds without intervention.


C:\CONFIG.SYS below:

[MENU]
MENUITEM=DOS0,MS-DOS
MENUITEM=DOS1,MS-DOS MOUSE SOUND
MENUITEM=DOS2,MS-DOS MOUSE SOUND CD-ROM
MENUITEM=WIN,WINDOWS 98 (DEFAULT)
MENUITEM=LINUX,PUPPY LINUX
MENUDEFAULT=WIN,5

[DOS0]
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE

[DOS1]
INCLUDE=DOS0

[DOS2]
INCLUDE=DOS0
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\VIDECDD.SYS /D:OPTICAL

[WIN]
INCLUDE=DOS0

[LINUX]

[COMMON]
FILES=40
LASTDRIVE=E


C:\AUTOEXEC.BAT below:

@ECHO OFF
GOTO %CONFIG%

:DOS0
GOTO QUIT

:DOS1
LH C:\DOS\CTMOUSE.EXE /R2
SET CTSYN=C:\LIVEDOS
C:\LIVEDOS\SBEINIT.COM
GOTO QUIT

:DOS2
LH C:\DOS\CTMOUSE.EXE /R2
SET CTSYN=C:\LIVEDOS
C:\LIVEDOS\SBEINIT.COM
LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:OPTICAL /M:10
GOTO QUIT

:LINUX
C:\PUPPY\GRUB.EXE --config-file=(hd0,0)/puppy/menu.lst
GOTO QUIT

:WIN
WIN

:QUIT

Forgive if this is old hat to long term users, never had time to properly learn during earlier working years. Based on DOS with a graphic shell, Windows 98 remains flexible and fun. This link was very helpful, amazed so much good knowledge remains available:
http://www.math.utah.edu/~gustafso/menu95.txt

Edited October 31, 2019 by Wunderbar98