Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions

[Tripredacus]

In your view, what will it take for designers to consider their users' ease and convenience when they're working on a website?

 

IMHO there is too much of a "F-U, take it or leave it" factor in Web (and browser and OS) design nowadays.

I'm one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of guys. I'd say that if a layout is proven to work, then why bother changing it around? There is no real need for a website to totally redesign their site "just because" and yet this happens so much. I'm all for adding features for detecting a specific type of device and offering a different experience. If, say, a website is being visited by a known tablet or mobile browser, then by all means offer a navigation experience (such as horizontal scroll) that works best for that device. The idea of trying to make a one-size-fits-all experience will never work because there are too many different browsers out there, different sized displays, and personal preferences.

We have a large number of users here that do not keep their browsers (or even OSes) current. There should be no reason why those users should be left without access to information. And yet we've already seen it multiple times where those with Win9x browsers suddenly can't access certain websites anymore. Two other examples I've recently run into where design or laziness causes a problem with browsing.

- One local TV news station is one of those heavy-include-friendly type sites I can't stand. One of their scripts detects if you are using a mobile browser... I guess to maybe show you a different viewing experience. I wouldn't know because.... When using an Android phone browser, the entire page loads, NOT as a mobile version but as the standard PC browser type view. THEN, the script to detect the browser completes and detects the mobile browser. What happens next? It says I need to use a specific iOS browser version to view the site and the entire page turns black.

- I didn't want to give the impression that Microsoft is moving so fast in their webpage design that us with older or "obsolete" browsers or devices are being left in the dust. Oh no. There are certain portions of the site where you can download something and it uses a download manager. Well, guess what? That website code was written during the early days of Windows XP and the latest IE it supports is IE8. So I want to download some fancy Windows 8.1 thing and I can't because I have IE10. After some time dealing with support, the answer is... use IE8.

It's a 2 way street out there, but we just complain most about things changing. I think it is the "old man syndrome" that everyone seems to go through in their life. That must be why old people are so cranky!

[NoelC]

You make good points, Tripredacus.

 

I'm personally an early adopter.  No "change is bad" syndrome here.  Most on this forum embrace change.  Been there, downloaded the previews, ran the betas, wrote the books.  If something is good I become and evangelist and try to teach others.  I see that in others here as well.

 

But... Like many others here, I just don't care for change for the worse.  And it's unfortunately not hard to spot it.  DIFFERENT is not better.  BETTER is better.  It's an important distinction!  Wisdom is apparently required to judge it.

 

We simply haven't seen truly better in a long time.  We're starting to wonder if it exists any more.  All the shills in the world don't make something better by saying it is.

 

What is NOT better is removal of features people use or that were there to make a system easier to use.  What IS better is when some 3rd party fixes the intentional omission and adds the functionality back.  Who would say Aero Glass for Win 8.1 isn't better?  Classic Shell?  Options in general?

 

Thing is, "Old Guys" have been around long enough to see what the industry went through the last time (and some of us the time before that, and maybe even more).  History repeats itself.  It shouldn't have to.  We write things down.

 

In the past decade someone got the idea that doing things right is hard.  "Old Guys" know that doing things right can actually make life easier.

 

In the new millennium, common sense isn't.  Wisdom and doing things right have been discarded in favor of...  Dumbing things down??  Manipulation???

 

We may be seeing the end of the golden age of computing.  And it doesn't have to be!

 

-Noel

[jaclaz]

 

But... Like many others here, I just don't care for change for the worse.  And it's unfortunately not hard to spot it.  DIFFERENT is not better.  BETTER is better.  It's an important distinction!  Wisdom is apparently required to judge it.

You might appreciate how I use to categorize MS OS's :

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/171220-redundant-ms-notification-about-xp-eos/?p=1070777

 

As I see it, the "common" point is that on one side there is this new "one size fits all" (BTW "wrong") paradigm as we have seen exacerbated on Windows Operating Systems "evolution", on the other side there is the "specialized" versioning (that BTW gets wrong when a non-standard is used for the "automagical" detection) like in the "web" case Trip pointed out.

 

Specifically, if the usage paradigm for a mouse user would have comprised a horizontal scroll, we would have by now mice with a horizontal scroll wheel, whilst scrolling horizontally by "swiping" is a common gesture for smartphone users, and even "more" logical (for those used to read "real" books, as it is similar to turning pages on a book) on a tablet.

 

As I see it, it is like If you want/need a new suit and you have only two choices:

a. mass produced "one size fits all" solutions

b. hand made suits by a tailor that - always - gets the wrong measures

 

There is simply no chance that your "custom" experience will ever be "better" than when you had more choices available, unless - when you can - like in the case of NoelC and Windows 8, you have the possibility and capability of getting the one size fits all suit and then re-tailor it yourself adapting it to your needs/likings, but then there is no merit in the crazy industry, only in your own abilities at making it fit nicely.

 

jaclaz

[NoelC]

Your a. / b. comparison is good, except that the choices could also include "looks like a cardboard box".

 

It's pretty clear to me someone at Microsoft was thinking, "Windows 7 is a real hit, so we can botch up Windows 8 so that we can start over with something even better in version 9."  It might have even worked, but the problem is they didn't realize they don't have something "even better" at hand, nor the talent to create it. 

 

This Metro thing they think is "even better" is something that even the folks who made Windows 2.0 would be ashamed of.

 

Don't get me wrong, easy programming by the masses, distribution through Microsoft (with a healthy fee of course), little pressure (who cares if a game isn't perfect; it's not like people will do their taxes with an App)...  All these were great conceptual ideas at the management level - how could they go wrong?  Other companies have even succeeded with some of these concepts. 

 

But Microsoft just didn't / doesn't have the talent to pull it off, and they tried to be too manipulative by intentionally hobbling the parts that worked very well. 

 

Frankly I don't see them pulling such talent together by, er, NOW in order to release something worth having in the next couple of years.

 

Until then, we have Windows 8 and things like my book and all these great 3rd party tools to help people turn it into a finely tailored, stylish garment.  Unfortunately, few people in the grand scheme seek them out.

 

-Noel

Edited August 1, 2014 by NoelC

[jaclaz]

It's pretty clear to me someone at Microsoft was thinking, "Windows 7 is a real hit, so we can botch up Windows 8 so that we can start over with something even better in version 9."  It might have even worked, but the problem is they didn't realize they don't have something "even better" at hand, nor the talent to create it.

I would be not so sure about the bolded part.

 

I like to believe that the "top guys" at MS do not actually think at all.

 

They either "fancy" something or they throw dices to choose.

 

Just like gamblers, sometimes they win, sometimes they loose. 

 

But they still need to learn what to throw away, what to keep, when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, when to walk away and when to run.... and even worse than that they actually attempted to count money when sittin' at the table 

 

jaclaz

Edited August 1, 2014 by jaclaz

[NoelC]

Never attribute to incompetence that which can be explained by malice dreamed up by a top executive making himself rich.

 

-Noel

[jaclaz]

Never attribute to incompetence that which can be explained by malice dreamed up by a top executive making himself rich.

I don't know , on one hand I would like to believe this is the case :

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/charleyree105626.html

BUT still ... :

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/spiderrobi195701.html

AND:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/patrickkav158303.html

 

 

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

First they stepped out on Microsoft with a Chromebook, now H-P is hedging their bets further with an Android notebook:

 

 

 

 

Absolutely Android.

• The Android apps you already know and love supported by the Android 4.3 Jelly Bean operating system, all powered by a speedy NVIDIA® Tegra® 4 mobile processor with quad‐core CPU to run high-end graphics and optimized performance.

 

This cannot be a good sign for the Windows 8.x mobile model.

 

--JorgeA

 

[JorgeA]

It's pretty clear to me someone at Microsoft was thinking, "Windows 7 is a real hit, so we can botch up Windows 8 so that we can start over with something even better in version 9."  It might have even worked, but the problem is they didn't realize they don't have something "even better" at hand, nor the talent to create it. 

 

I'm going to focus on a different part of the paragraph than jaclaz did.

 

Do you mean that they felt they could "afford" to fail witn Win8, or that some train of thought led them to try deliberately to screw things up with Win8?

 

It's hard to fathom how anybody getting paid to work could think the latter, intending deliberately to botch up a new OS for the sake of the OS that follows it.

 

--JorgeA

Edited August 2, 2014 by JorgeA

[JorgeA]

And speaking of Windows 8 on mobile devices:

 

It is game over for Windows Phone

 

Microsoft, it is time to reconsider your Windows Phone plans. The tiled smartphone operating system's market share came in at a tiny 2.7 percent in Q2 2014, dropping from the 3.8 percent it claimed in the same period of last year. As a result, Windows Phone saw a 28.94 percent decrease year-over-year in market share, caused by low shipments of only 8.0 million units in the second quarter of the year, 0.9 million units less than in Q2 2013 when its shipments were at the 8.9 million units mark.

 

The data is from a new report issued by research firm Strategy Analytics, which adds "Windows Phone continued to struggle in the United States and China", the first two largest smartphone markets worldwide. There, Kantar Worldpanel ComTech places the platform at 3.8 percent and 0.9 percent market share, respectively. That is lower than in other markets such as Australia, where Windows Phone was able to reach 5.3 percent market in Q2 2014, as well as some parts of Europe.

 

 

Ex-Microsoft evangelist says Microsoft should 'give up' on Windows Phone and embrace Android

 

Robert Scoble, an ex-Microsoft evangelist now working for Rackspace, passed along some interesting comments in an interview with Geekwire. He says Microsoft has lost the mobile war so they should simply give up Windows Phone and embrace Android. [...] “The real answer is, give up Windows Phone, go Android, and embrace and extend like you did with the Internet. But they don’t listen to me.”

 

 

Although not all voices are down on Windows Phone:

 

Windows Phone is like OS X a decade ago -- gaining respect, finally

 

Windows Phone also doesn't stand alone. Microsoft's efforts to tie the platform to existing strong-hold products like Exchange and Office are more sensible today than four years ago, in part because the platform and the integrated strategy around it has matured. I bought the Nokia Lumia Icon, and to my surprise really enjoy using Windows Phone 8. But I got the phone anticipating Surface Pro 3, purchased day of availability. Like someone choosing iPod and a Mac a decade ago: Product synergy.

 

--JorgeA

 

[NoelC]

 

It's pretty clear to me someone at Microsoft was thinking, "Windows 7 is a real hit, so we can botch up Windows 8 so that we can start over with something even better in version 9."  It might have even worked, but the problem is they didn't realize they don't have something "even better" at hand, nor the talent to create it. 

 

I'm going to focus on a different part of the paragraph than jaclaz did.

 

Do you mean that they felt they could "afford" to fail witn Win8, or that some train of thought led them to try deliberately to screw things up with Win8?

 

It's hard to fathom how anybody getting paid to work could think the latter, intending deliberately to botch up a new OS for the sake of the OS that follows it.

 

--JorgeA

 

 

Since I'm of the opinion that big things don't happen by accident, I'm becoming more and more convinced that at some levels they're trying to fail on purpose.

 

Yes, it make no sense to reasonable people.

 

-Noel

[dencorso]

Since I'm of the opinion that big things don't happen by accident, I'm becoming more and more convinced that at some levels they're trying to fail on purpose.

Yes, it make no sense to reasonable people.

 

I do believe big things may happen by accident, although I always marvel at how Murphy's Law (which is not really a law) appears to hold most of the time. However, in the specific case of Win 8 and all its derivatives (whatever they may be called: Update, SP, etc.), sometimes it seems to me as if MS had put a goat in the house... so that I'm tending to agree with you on this one. 

However, instead of just putting Metro in, they also took away the interface everybody loved, and part of the eye-candy (aero-glass) to obtain maximum effect, and will bring it all back slightly bettered (or even just as before) latter on, just to be hailed as geniuses and saviours. And why would them do so? Precisely because they do not have anything really better than 7 to offer, so they flop 8 to send a later windows soaring into the clouds (did I say clouds?).

[JorgeA]

That's an intriguing theory. (Funny story about the goat.  ) However, it's a high-risk strategy (if it is a strategy) that they're implementing, as several of their major products are struggling. Here's another one:

 

PlayStation is outselling Xbox by more than 3:1

 

Sony reported its quarterly financials earlier today, and as part of that report, it disclosed that it had sold a combined total of 3.5 million PS4 and PS3 units during the quarter ending June 30. As MCV UK notes, Sony has said that the strong sales of its PlayStation 4 are compensating for declining interest in the PS3, and given how well the PS4 has been selling, it seems safe to assume that a pretty big chunk of those 3.5m sales were of the newer console.

 

Compare this with the latest official figure provided by Microsoft, when it recently reported its quarterly results. The company said that it had sold a combined total of 1.1m Xbox One and Xbox 360 units during the same quarter.

 

Add that to Windows Phone, Surface, and Windows 8 itself, and you start thinking that if they did mess up Win8 on purpose, then the company is run by a bunch of masochists.

 

But they do make a ton of money on other stuff (Office, cloud services) so maybe they think they can afford to take some risks.

 

Or maybe they are in fact applying the "goat in the house" theory and looking forward to when people will be so thankful that Windows got fixed that they'll forget all the previous sins.

 

Personally, I think that it wasn't a goat, but an infestation of obnoxious pests who imposed their vision on the company (and its customers) and who took some time to eradicate once the homeowner realized what they had done to the house. Note that most of the major culprits are gone now, starting with Sinofsky.

 

--JorgeA

 

[NoelC]

Some of all these things, possibly:

 

Psychopathic executives working to make themselves insanely rich, planning to go buy basketball teams, etc.  They couldn't care less about what happens to the future of computing.  They'll have theirs.  It'll be especially funny when the financial system crashes and they lose it all due to their selfish choices.

 

Marketing people who believe that Marketing is the prime thing, nay, the only thing, and everything else is just noise in the background.  These folks believe something big and visible MUST be changed, and the "new thing" must be made to seem fashionable or no one will buy the product.  They can't understand that the substance is what makes or breaks an operating system.  In their minds we geeks are useless.

 

A new generation of "technical" people who are further removed from the discipline and sense of true engineering than ever, finding themselves incapable of actually improving markedly on the systems of the past.  Rebellious, "new" is better than "old" thinkers, unwilling to believe that the designers of the past might have actually been both wiser AND just as smart as they are.

 

The general public, who have been herded by marketing types and inundated by half-working technology into a state where they can't tell something that's shiny from something that's got true substance.  Except that they actually still can - hence Windows 8's failure in the marketplace.

 

-Noel

[JorgeA]

Windows 8.1 and Windows XP sees drop in market share, Windows 7 gets a slight increase

 

[source via Winbeta]

 

 

Windows 7 continues to be the top desktop operating system with a 51.22% share. This is up from the previous month's 50.55% share. The month prior saw a 48.77% share. Clearly Windows 7 is seeing increased share as the months go by. 

 

[...]

 

Diving deeper into the stats, we can see that Windows 8.1 had a 6.61% share in June, but saw a decline to 6.56% as of July.

 

This is the second straight month that Windows 8+8.1 market share figures have dropped and Windows 7 has increased. Once is a fluke, twice is suggestive. Three times will make it a trend.

 

--JorgeA