Laptop Won't Recognize more than 8.4GB HDD

[JorgeA]

Since the hard disk is "designed" with a 16/63 geometry, if it works on that BIOS, it would be better.

All roads lead to Rome, but some are straighter/shorter!

Try with the 29264x16x63.

The actual point now is to understand exactly how many cylinders you have actually available, I suspect that if you manually give a "higher-than-real" number of cylinders, everything will work UNTIL you get to actually write access one of those non-existing sectors.

jaclaz (and rloew),

I tried setting the values to 29264x16x63, but I had the same result as before -- the computer hung with a blinking cursor on a blank screen. And this time I did have a boot floppy inserted.

It looks like the road with 15 heads is the straighter one!

If it makes any difference, we should note that the default value when I set it to Auto is 15 heads.

So I'll go back to 31214x15x63, run rloew's TEST1, and see what happens.

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

All partition resizing courts data loss.

dencorso,

Recommendation for the Ranish Partition Manager noted. (Thank you!)

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying: If I increase the primary partition using FDISK or ANYthing else, I run the risk of data loss. And therefore it's safer to use the newfound space to create a new partition instead. Did I get it right?

--JorgeA

[JorgeA]

I wou;d reccommend 16 Heads.

Rerun the TEST1 Program to see if it still passes.

rloew,

As reported to jaclaz, the computer didn't get anywhere when I set the values to 29264x16x63.

So I went back to 31214x15x63 and ran TEST1. It passed!

Let me know what this means, especially in terms of what we need to do so as to make use of the unallocated space. If a partition manager is in order, I'm open to all suggestions, including FDISK, RPM, and your own utilities. One important, though not decisive, factor in the selection would be how clear the chosen tool would be to someone like me, who's doing this sort of thing for the first time (but is eager to learn).

Thank you!

--JorgeA

[dencorso]

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying: If I increase the primary partition using FDISK or ANYthing else, I run the risk of data loss. And therefore it's safer to use the newfound space to create a new partition instead. Did I get it right?

Yes. Not that MS FDISK would even let you do that. But many other tools allow it. It sure is way safer to create one (or more) new partition(s) on the remaining space. But do yourself a favor and create an image of the existing partition and burn it to a DVD, before you start messing with the disk. Having backups is the only really safe course. Dont play Russian Roulette with partition contents you're not willing (or cannot afford) to loose.

[JorgeA]

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying: If I increase the primary partition using FDISK or ANYthing else, I run the risk of data loss. And therefore it's safer to use the newfound space to create a new partition instead. Did I get it right?

Yes. Not that MS FDISK would even let you do that. But many other tools allow it. It sure is way safer to create one (or more) new partition(s) on the remaining space. But do yourself a favor and create an image of the existing partition and burn it to a DVD, before you start messing with the disk. Having backups is the only really safe course. Dont play Russian Roulette with partition contents you're not willing (or cannot afford) to loose.

dencorso,

Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it. It sounds like you speak from tough experience!

Sadly, this little notebook PC lacks a CD/DVD drive. It has a slot where you can swap a floppy drive and a CD-ROM drive in and out, but it came used and without the CD-ROM drive. Is it possible to create an image of the existing partition to a USB thumb drive, or not really?

The odd thing about my situation is that, in a way, I *am* willing to lose the contents. That is, the PC is (for now) a learning/experimentation platform, so there isn't anything on it that would make me lose sleep over it if it went *poof*. (To minimize the wasted time in case I screw up, I haven't even reinstalled Word on it.) It would be frustrating and a PITA to have to re-install Windows and the various utilities I have on it, but at this point it wouldn't be a devastating event if the drive got erased.

So, if the prudent thing is to create a new partition instead of resizing the current one, and FDISK can't handle the creation of a new partition, then it looks like we're looking at either Ranish Partition Manager or rloew's utilities, since they both come widely recommended.

How about jaclaz's suggestion to use FDISK to create an extended partition and then a logical volume?

You can be sure that I'll be reading up on primary partitions, resizing, extended partitions, and logical volumes in the next day or two!

--JorgeA

Edited June 25, 2010 by JorgeA

[Multibooter]

So, if the prudent thing is to create a new partition instead of resizing the current one, and FDISK can't handle the creation of a new partition, then it looks like we're looking at either Ranish Partition Manager or rloew's utilities, since they both come widely recommended.

PowerQuest PartitionMagic v8.01 of 23-Aug-2003 works fine on my old Inspiron 7500 laptops, which have the same Phoenix BIOS 4.0 Release 6.0 as your laptop. Maybe this old partitioning software is better adapted to the peculiarities of an old BIOS. After partitioning with PartitionMagic v8.01, I always check the partitioning with Partition Table Doctor v3.5 of 2006.

I also have installed under Win98 Acronis Disk Director Suite v10.0 build 2089 (2005) and Paragon Partition Manager 9.0, but I don't use them for the initial partitioning of a HDD.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Multibooter

[jaclaz]

I guess this must be cleared once and for all.

Partition Magic ("good" versions are 2.0, 3.0 -but these are limited to the 8 Gb HD barrier - and 8.x - if you have 4,5,6 leave them alone) and Partition Table Doctor and Acronis are COMMERCIAL apps.

I wouldn't spend the money for a license for any of them (and yes, I am notoriously cheap , to do something that:

1) is NOT *needed*

2) can be done anyay with freeware apps

This said, BOTH Partition Magic AND Acronis apps have some UNDOCUMENTED very little quirks (like writing in some cases "non-standard CODE in the MBR/bootsector AND writing WITHOUT any warning to some hidden sectors of the HD).

@JorgeA

The main problem that we still have to solve is whether 31214 (or, say, 31213 or 31215 ... you get the idea) is an accurate value or not.

If the highest accessible cylinder is 31215 having the BIOS set to 31214 won't do any harm and you'll simply lose a very little part of the overall capacity of the drive.

On the other hand if highest accessible cylinder is 31213 you have potentially a system that may crash ANY time.

Most probably your best bet is to set in BIOS a higher value, say 31250, then boot to DOS (NOT Win9x!) and try accessing latest sectors with PTS Disk Editor:

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/tool/FreeTools.html

Stop when you have an error.

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

@JorgeA

The main problem that we still have to solve is whether 31214 (or, say, 31213 or 31215 ... you get the idea) is an accurate value or not.

If the highest accessible cylinder is 31215 having the BIOS set to 31214 won't do any harm and you'll simply lose a very little part of the overall capacity of the drive.

On the other hand if highest accessible cylinder is 31213 you have potentially a system that may crash ANY time.

Most probably your best bet is to set in BIOS a higher value, say 31250, then boot to DOS (NOT Win9x!) and try accessing latest sectors with PTS Disk Editor:

http://thestarman.pcministry.com/tool/FreeTools.html

Stop when you have an error.

jaclaz

jaclaz,

Thanks for the link. I'll try that and get back to you.

In the meantime, I found a number of pages that might help us figure out the information we need.

First, there's this page from Toshiba Europe.

Then, there is a page from a PC enthusiast with specs on his system. FWIW, note that he lists his Toshiba HDD capacity at 15097MB. Others give the capacity as 15.103GB.

Next, I found two photos that match my HDD sticker: this one and this one. You can almost make out the number of sectors (29,4?8,112). Mine even has the Apple logo like the first one.

The sector number information gibes with what the DEKSI Hard Disk Manager reports for my HDD: 29,498,112.

Let me know what you think.

--JorgeA

UPDATE: I ran the PTS Disk Editor, using the parameters that you suggested (31250 instead of 31214).

The error messages (indicated as "??" for the values) began at "Absolute sector 29498112 (cylinder 1950, head 224, sector 1)".

The next step is to get an interpretation of what this means, and to decide what to do.

Edited June 25, 2010 by JorgeA

[JorgeA]

PowerQuest PartitionMagic v8.01 of 23-Aug-2003 works fine on my old Inspiron 7500 laptops, which have the same Phoenix BIOS 4.0 Release 6.0 as your laptop. Maybe this old partitioning software is better adapted to the peculiarities of an old BIOS. After partitioning with PartitionMagic v8.01, I always check the partitioning with Partition Table Doctor v3.5 of 2006.

I also have installed under Win98 Acronis Disk Director Suite v10.0 build 2089 (2005) and Paragon Partition Manager 9.0, but I don't use them for the initial partitioning of a HDD.

Multibooter,

Thanks for the references!

Is it possible to still find these older versions? I'll look around the Web.

When you say that you check the partitioning with Partition Table Doctor -- is that like a doublecheck to make sure that PartitionMagic didn't screw up?

--JorgeA

[jaclaz]

@jorgeA

Still, I guess we are talking about two different things.

There is NO doubt that the original Toshiba geometry is the one rloew gave:

29,264*16*63=29,498,112

You can enter the above AND re-partition the disk with FDISK AND re-format and re-install allright. (OPTION 1).

OR (if you wish NOT to re-partition the disk and re-format and re-install) you can try using the

31,214*15*63=29,497,230

and adding an extended partition and one or more logical volumens in it. (OPTION 2)

Since 29,497,230 is LESS than 29,498,112, there should be NO problems except losing exactly 29,498,112-29,497,230=882 882*512=451,584 bytes of capacity.

Nonetheless, checking that the last sector is accessible is advised, and it seems from your edit like allright.

Now you only have to choose between the available options 1 or 2, but also option 3 (using one of the suggested freeware apps) and option 4 (needlessly using a commercial software you don't own a licence for), the latter two being deprecated, obviously #4 being MUCH MORE deprecated than #3.

jaclaz

Edited June 25, 2010 by jaclaz

[JorgeA]

@jorgeA

Still, I guess we are talking about two different things.

There is NO doubt that the original Toshiba geometry is the one rloew gave:

29,264*16*63=29,498,112

You can enter the above AND re-partition the disk with FDISK AND re-format and re-install allright. (OPTION 1).

OR (if you wish NOT to re-partition the disk and re-format and re-install) you can try using the

31,214*15*63=29,497,230

and adding an extended partition and one or more logical volumens in it. (OPTION 2)

Since 29,497,230 is LESS than 29,498,112, there should be NO problems except losing exactly 29,498,112-29,497,230=882 882*512=451,584 bytes of capacity.

Nonetheless, checking that the last sector is accessible is advised, and it seems from your edit like allright.

Now you only have to choose between the available options 1 or 2, but also option 3 (using one of the suggested freeware apps) and option 4 (needlessly using a commercial software you don't own a licence for), the latter two being deprecated, obviously #4 being MUCH MORE deprecated than #3.

jaclaz

jaclaz,

Thanks for the analysis!

O.K., trying to get a handle on the type of software that would be involved with each of the options you outline (1,2,3,4). If I understand the issue correctly, FIRST we choose between 1 and 2, and THEN between 3 and 4.

Option 3 would involve using RPM or rloew's RFDISK

Option 4 would involve using PartitionMagic or a similar commercial application

Did I get that right? Option 2 looks more attractive than Option 1, as losing less than half a MB is a good price to avoid a reinstall.

We're approaching the home stretch with this project.

--JorgeA

Edited June 25, 2010 by JorgeA

[jaclaz]

Thanks for the analysis!

O.K., trying to get a handle on the type of software that would be involved with each of the options you outline (1,2,3,4). If I understand the issue correctly, FIRST we choose between 1 and 2, and THEN between 3 and 4.

Option 3 would involve using RPM or rloew's RFDISK

Option 4 would involve using PartitionMagic or a similar commercial application

Did I get that right? Option 2 looks more attractive than Option 1, as losing less than half a MB is a good price to avoid a reinstall.

Almost, but not quite :

For option 1 you need nothing but the FDISK you already have (though RPM is a very good tool that can be used INSTEAD of FDISK)

For option 2 you need nothing but the FDISK you already have (though RPM is a very good tool that can be used INSTEAD of FDISK)

For option 3 you need any of the freewares capable of resizing (RPM and Partition resizer are examples)

For option 4 you need any of the Commercial tools capable of resizing (Partition Magic Acronis and Partition Doctor are examples)

RFDISK s Commercial/Shareware, cannot say if it is usable as option 4, it may have been option 0 (as it can partition regardless of BIOS settings ) but since your BIOS proved to be allright, you don't need option 0.

I.e. you choose between 1 or 2 or (3 or 4).

1 is "how things should be"

2 is "how things can be"

3 is "how things should be if everything works"

4 is "how things should be if everything works after having parted from a few bucks"

Up to you the choice.

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

For option 1 you need nothing but the FDISK you already have (though RPM is a very good tool that can be used INSTEAD of FDISK)

For option 2 you need nothing but the FDISK you already have (though RPM is a very good tool that can be used INSTEAD of FDISK)

For option 3 you need any of the freewares capable of resizing (RPM and Partition resizer are examples)

For option 4 you need any of the Commercial tools capable of resizing (Partition Magic Acronis and Partition Doctor are examples)

jaclaz

jaclaz,

Once again, thanks for explaining.

Let's say that I do choose Option 2. In that case, you're saying that I CAN create an extended partition with FDISK withOUT losing the existing data and programs?

Another question. I've been reading up on the various kinds of partitions, and honestly the more I read, the more confused I get. Seems like a disk can have up to four "primary partitions," one of which can be an "extended partition" containing "secondary partitions" with (and? or?) "logical partitions." On top of all that we can throw in "active partitions" and "logical volumes," both of which I sort of get but I don't see how they relate to the rest of all these kinds of partitions.

The conceptual problem I'm running into here, is that I don't understand the purpose of all these different kinds of partitions, and I haven't come across a good explanation of that. If you can set up as many as four primary partitions on the same HDD, then what need is there for an "extended" partition with "logical" partitions under it?? Where do these "secondary" partitions fit in, compared to the "logical" partitions? Under what circumstances would you create a new "primary" partition vs. an "extended" partition, and vice versa?

I'm relying on the Wikipedia article, plus Corey Sandler's Fix Your Own PC, Eighth Edition (p. 249). Both these sources offer almost the same confusing "explanation" of the situation, and to my mind they leave things MORE obscure than before.

I'm hoping you can guide me through this jungle of terminology, to shed light on the concepts.

Gratefully,

--JorgeA

Edited June 25, 2010 by JorgeA

[Mijzelf]

When IBM inserted a harddisk in their PC, back in '80 or so, they designed a partition table which could contain 4 partitions. Primary partitions, nobody had heard yet of extended partitions.

At some point somebody thought 4 partitions is not enough, and he invented the extended partition, which is nothing more than partition with a partitiontable in it, serving room for 4 sub-partitions, logical partitions.

So you can create 4 primary partitions, or 4 extended partition each containing 4 logical partition, and you can even chain extended partitions, instead of a logical partition you can add another extended partition.

In normal use it doesn't matter if you use primary or logical partitions, but in most cases you can only boot from a primary partition, and Win9x first assigns driveletters to all primary partitions, and then all logical partitions.

Then there are software limitations: fdisk can only create 1 primary and 1 extended partition (filled with max 4 logicals). Microsoft states that using more than one primary partition on a harddisk is not supported on W9x, and can lead to unpredictable results. (I've never noticed any problems)

So when you want to add a partition using fdisk, your only choice is adding a logical one. When you use Ranish, or another PM, you can decide to add a primary. MS won't support this, but hey, they support nothing at all, when you use W9x. In both cases it will work fine.

[rloew]

For option 1 you need nothing but the FDISK you already have (though RPM is a very good tool that can be used INSTEAD of FDISK)

For option 2 you need nothing but the FDISK you already have (though RPM is a very good tool that can be used INSTEAD of FDISK)

For option 3 you need any of the freewares capable of resizing (RPM and Partition resizer are examples)

For option 4 you need any of the Commercial tools capable of resizing (Partition Magic Acronis and Partition Doctor are examples)

jaclaz

jaclaz,

Once again, thanks for explaining.

Let's say that I do choose Option 2. In that case, you're saying that I CAN create an extended partition with FDISK withOUT losing the existing data and programs?

Another question. I've been reading up on the various kinds of partitions, and honestly the more I read, the more confused I get. Seems like a disk can have up to four "primary partitions," one of which can be an "extended partition" containing "secondary partitions" with (and? or?) "logical partitions." On top of all that we can throw in "active partitions" and "logical volumes," both of which I sort of get but I don't see how they relate to the rest of all these kinds of partitions.

The conceptual problem I'm running into here, is that I don't understand the purpose of all these different kinds of partitions, and I haven't come across a good explanation of that. If you can set up as many as four primary partitions on the same HDD, then what need is there for an "extended" partition with "logical" partitions under it?? Where do these "secondary" partitions fit in, compared to the "logical" partitions? Under what circumstances would you create a new "primary" partition vs. an "extended" partition, and vice versa?

I'm relying on the Wikipedia article, plus Corey Sandler's Fix Your Own PC, Eighth Edition (p. 249). Both these sources offer almost the same confusing "explanation" of the situation, and to my mind they leave things MORE obscure than before.

I'm hoping you can guide me through this jungle of terminology, to shed light on the concepts.

Gratefully,

--JorgeA

Use 31214 Cylinders 15 Heads 63 Sectors. All of the information I needed is in the TEST0RPT.TXT File you Posted for me.

RFDISK can edit a Partition's size, but it cannot be used to resize a Partition with data in it.

The Partition Tables are structured as follows:

The MBR is in the First Sector of the Hard Drive. It contains the Initial Boot Code and a Four Entry Partition Table.

This Table contains pointers for one to four Primary and/or Extended Partitions.

A Primary Partition is a stand alone Partition.

An Active Partition is a Primary Partition that is flagged to be Bootable. Only one Active Partition is allowed.

An Extended Partition is a Container for other Partitions. This gets around the 4 Partition limit of the MBR.

Omly one Extended Partition is allowed in the MBR.

Thie Extended Psrtition points to a Logical Partition and possibly to a chain of Secondary Extended Partitions.

A Logical Partition is similar to a Primary Partition but is not normally Bootable and is not pointeed to by the MBR.

A Secondary Extended Partition is a link in a chain. It points to the next Logical Partition in the chain, and if needed, the next Secondary Extended Partition.

This allows an unlimited number of Partitions to be defined.