A Humble Request for Consolidation

[cozbo]

I certainly don't want to step on anyone's toes here. There has been amazing work done by many on this board. I see an opportunity and simply wanted to bounce it around the think tank for a bit.

98SE2ME/98MP10, SP3, and Autopatcher are all packages of full OS scope with the same goal in mind. All have certain advantages over the others. It seems that much more could be accomplished if these four large projects could be rolled into one with the three of you working on the same goal and the end product would probably be better, individual workload would probably decrease, and the rest of us leeches (grin) would probably benefit more. Since all of this is done out of "care factor" anyway, it's not like there's any competition and all of you should receive due credit.

I am willing (but don't expect) to help with whatever I can if there is hope for this idea. I do not have the knowledge of the specific inter workings of the 98 OS that you three have, but I am working on by CS degree and have a large amount of experience taking apart and reassembling Linux. The limiting factor right now is that I am deployed to Iraq, but I'm willing to do what I can if it will help the cause.

I realize that what I'm tossing out there would mean that each would have to scrap some part of their own way of doing things, but it would truly be great for everyone else IMO. MS had many programmers pounding out 98, we should expect that re-engineering it would be no easier.

A snack for the brain.

[TravisO]

Very unlikely, these projects are created by separate people/groups. If anything, a new project should get started that integrates all of these into 1 installer.

[MikeyHunt]

Hmmm... Cause for thought.

But the old adage 'too many cooks will spoil the pot' might apply.

When I first joined this site, I too was overwhelmed by the amount and various styles of update projects.

Maybe a 'sticky' overview (tutorial) explaining the differences and nuances of each, would be in order.

Also, there are some compatibility problems when using more than one project on the same machine that should be articulated too.

my .02

Edited March 31, 2008 by MikeyHunt

[Offler]

i have been analyzing the projects here for longer period and i use some of them. I am betatester - mostly my cotribution to these projects is to find errors or how to make them work together.

Project Immolator is picking dozens of available updates - official MS updates, making not supported upgrades work (such as vcredist 2008), and finding unofficial upgrades created by folks here...

All upgrades in first page can be used at the same time, improving system functionality, stability and functionality so much as possible. Althought it can be used as kind of tutorial it cannot be used as a single upgrade - at least not at this time.

As long i know most upgrades which i use cannot be distributed becaused they are MS sotware - such as internet explorer - or are not distributed under GNU or similar. The complete list of all upgrades can be used for creation of ultimate upgrade pack, but my work here is still not done, while i still can find a lot of imperfections in my own system. also the fact that i am not able to create program which will execute the upgrade...

the problems which are solved by certain upgrades are:

- compatibility - mostly Kernel Ex which is improving the system in very strong way, also the problems are solved by some distributions of DirectX, NetFramework, MDAC and other MS products

- stability - in my case Unofficial Service Pack 2, and some tested pieces of software (slimbrowser and other)

- functionality - 4gb files patch by LLXX, 137gp patch, NUSB

- desing - with Tihyis Uberskin, also with WLL and other

I believe that all these upgrades can be put into a single upgrade package, but i am not able to do so...

(for more info look into topic "Immolator")

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Well, it would be better but most likely it ain't happening. Read on if you wish.

Off topic:

I am a moderator of the DiGiTALZoNE board, which focuses on non-steam games. I've been there for more than two years, doing my job and getting from n00b to member to elite to anti-spam moderator and finally to global moderator. I've seen the community go through many changes, going down and being brought back again, and there's one thing i have to say about all this. Two years ago that place was much better.

We haven't had any proper releases for more than an year, and i found out that lately we are just ripping off others' work and just doing installers. We need a crew, as the old crew who started the board left about an year and a half ago, and current crew members are either busy all the time or behave like stupid selfish kids.

I asked the same thing: that we should be united, get some experienced coders in the crew and roll some proper game releases out so we don't get a million complaints and share spam by other members (at one point there were 10 versions of CS 1.6 around till i went and deleted all but the 2 official ones), and got a lot of input, almost all of it positive, but in the end only i and a couple more guys from the moderating team still care about the idea. We're gonna start to learn coding so we can make our own game patches, but this'll take a while, and we still need a few more people to help us.

See, here you got a great forum, moderated by a responsible team. You got talented coders working on some great features for older versions of 'doze. You even got someone who tries to package all this stuff together. What more could you want? It ain't fun having everything for free, as there's always the challenge of doing something yourself. I'm not saying it wouldn't be better if those people coding various features would form a team, but keep in mind it could've been worse than it is.

Back on topic:

Running windoze 98 on current hardware is for people that know what they are doing. It is for those who have experienced the OS when it first came out, and that still have their licensed CDs. It is for people that liked it, and want it back and better. It is for people who are still calibrating their CRTs (that's what i was doing right now with my 17 inch one). It is for people who still play with Voodoo cards. It is for people who still have the old Soundblasters, coz they can run in DOS and got a hardware midi synth that sounds spectacular compared to M$'s bundled software set. It is for people who still know what midi is. It is for people who still game in pure DOS. It is for those who knows what that "something" means. It is for those who still got that feeling.

I for one still have both 95 OSR2 and 98SE original discs, and i remember when i got my first computer that i was messing 95 up like every month and crying for my dad to come and fix it. I watched him do it once, twice, three times, then i learned how to install it myself. I was 7 back then and now i'm (almost) 17, and now i have more computer knowledge than my dad.

Whereas you can't just revert someone who was born with the Aero interface in front of his eyes to this. Even if it looks similar. Even if it'll run everything that vista runs. There are people who like vista coz it's new, regardless if their computer can run 10x faster with a different OS. There are people that don't care. It's best to just let everybody do their thing and keep a small and warm community here, with everything free of charge but having to do a tweak or two to get it right, rather than making it simpler and getting the forum full of spammers just so our work is more widespread. Rather than getting to selling work based on code which isn't even legally ours. Rather that signing an agreement with M$ so we can sell our stuff legally while they get the money.

I know what i am saying as i've been all through it on the DZ board (see above), and i wouldn't like that happening here.

All the best and viva la 98.

Edited March 31, 2008 by Th3_uN1Qu3

[Offler]

well my position is very different.

Since Microsoft dropped support people here picked it up and started evolving windows 9x in same way as Linux has been evolved for more than a decade.

I believe there is still place for new hardware. (ati radeon x850XT with SB Live and LCD monitor, with recent Intel Lan Card and new tvtuner.)

[cozbo]

Definately passionate about your position un1Que. I was around long before home computers were on the horizon, so I do know of what you speak. There are a lot of reasons for running 98 other than old hardware, though. I held out touching XP until I had to grab it for required programming software and resented every minute of switching.

My main point is that I feel that more could be achieved by more collaboration, not that what's happening isn't great. I was the co-author of the Linux From Scratch via RPM project until my cohert went belly up on it and got too busy with his personal life. We had numerous folks contributing and it would not have been what it was without them. We're doing the same thing here as Linus did in the beginning with his kernel--staking new ground. Linus will be the first to tell you that his kernel was originally nothing more than a school project/hobby and that it was the push of all those interested in the beginning that made it what it is today.

Linux has the Open Source realm, ReactOS will someday have the "Look Alike" realm, the "I own Windows and want it to function my way" is alive, well, and kicking today and so are all the apps that won't yet run on anything else.

[Xstyle]

I agree with Th3_uN1Qu3 and cozbo .... I remember when i had 10 years and my brother was designing games and some nice graphics for dos in that period, when he was asking me if i can help dictate some line codes for Pascal, when i was playing Lotus and some other nice games.... I joined this forum some time ago and i must say i was impressed by the work that it's done here. I had an similar ideea like cozbo has, to join forces and make a super win98....but i don't thinc it will happen.....who knows...if my knowlege it's welcomed i'm the first to join the crew........

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

well my position is very different.

Since Microsoft dropped support people here picked it up and started evolving windows 9x in same way as Linux has been evolved for more than a decade.

I believe there is still place for new hardware. (ati radeon x850XT with SB Live and LCD monitor, with recent Intel Lan Card and new tvtuner.)

Of course there is. My main rig is an E6550 clocked at 3.73GHz with an 8600GT. Running TinyXP Platinum 2 and flying, no way i'd let vista touch that. The only reason i run XP is because of the 4GB limit of FAT32, as i'm sure the drivers and stuff can be fixed.

Definately passionate about your position un1Que. I was around long before home computers were on the horizon, so I do know of what you speak. There are a lot of reasons for running 98 other than old hardware, though. I held out touching XP until I had to grab it for required programming software and resented every minute of switching.

My main point is that I feel that more could be achieved by more collaboration, not that what's happening isn't great. I was the co-author of the Linux From Scratch via RPM project until my cohert went belly up on it and got too busy with his personal life. We had numerous folks contributing and it would not have been what it was without them. We're doing the same thing here as Linus did in the beginning with his kernel--staking new ground. Linus will be the first to tell you that his kernel was originally nothing more than a school project/hobby and that it was the push of all those interested in the beginning that made it what it is today.

Linux has the Open Source realm, ReactOS will someday have the "Look Alike" realm, the "I own Windows and want it to function my way" is alive, well, and kicking today and so are all the apps that won't yet run on anything else.

Read above.

I had been running Puppy Linux for a while, and it's a good example of Linux from scratch. I only dropped it coz the trident video driver in linux hated my lappy's video chip.

I made the switch to XP only when SP1 was out already, i stuck with 98 till then. Of course it would be great to get an open-source team working on it, but most of them are busy running Linux. And remember that the 98 code is still property of M$, and we'd need a way around this if we want to delve into its core. ReactOS is a nice attempt, but they try to build a NT-compatible OS, and i have certain stuff that does not run properly on NT.

So 98 for life! Now if only i could fix that network card priority over the PCI bus so it doesn't make my whole system stutter anymore... If i remember right, it was fine first time i installed 98SE, after a program messed it up i had to reinstall and it came with this bug... Hmmm. There's this NATO summit going on here so school's out this week, so i might just get to reinstalling 98 again. But i'm getting off-topic already, ending this post here.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Th3_uN1Qu3

[PROBLEMCHYLD]

I been asking for this thing for years the **** aint gone happen

too much competition with the pack makers for example why do we have

RP7

Window Lupus

Window Renovatio

when they all serve the same purpose

why not just create a pack thats suitable for all systems

I'm sure them 3 heads i named is better together than the 1 alone

we all strive to keep Win98SE alive but its only a few team players

thats why you are starting to see Win98SE gradually fade away.

Thanks to erpdude, Gape, Mdgx,Maxium Decim, Xeno86 etc...

I swear these guys is the reason i have a computer, yall are my motivation

when you guys retire so does my computer.

[Xstyle]

I been asking for this thing for years the **** aint gone happen

too much competition with the pack makers for example why do we have

RP7

Window Lupus

Window Renovatio

when they all serve the same purpose

why not just create a pack thats suitable for all systems

I'm sure them 3 heads i named is better together than the 1 alone

we all strive to keep Win98SE alive but its only a few team players

thats why you are starting to see Win98SE gradually fade away.

Thanks to erpdude, Gape, Mdgx,Maxium Decim, Xeno86 etc...

I swear these guys is the reason i have a computer, yall are my motivation

when you guys retire so does my computer.

You're right in some aspects, but if we had the same ideeas then all of this couldn't been achieved. I don't see it as a competition, i see it like some guys have different ideeas....wanting to do it in theyr one style. Don't get me wrong, i want to colaborate, to work as a team, but it seems like every guy has his one team,so....everyone does wat he knows best.

Let's hope for an future collaboration......

[Sfor]

The weakest point of the current Windows 9x related projects is the language. It is true the english language is a perfect choice for a community like this one. The problem is the resulting projecs are comming just in english language versions, as well (other languages are rare).

More languages will draw more users and more tallented people. A skilled professional will not put an effort to a projest without some benefit to the systems in the vicinity. In my case just a few of the solutions available here can be used by me. I do have some ideas of my own, but the results are just in Polish language, as well.

If you want the community to grow, start from making projects multilingual. Such a task will require a lot of cooperation. As the result, the projects with the best multilingual support should become the best around.

The first step could be to collect informations about other language support forums related to the Windows 9x systems like this one. It would be much easier to find group of support in a particular language. Also, such a database can strenghten those groups and stimulate flow of ideas between the language borders.

[Offler]

localizations can be solved but it must be done systematically.

for example - there must be complete upgrade package first before we can come to this.

there are more things which are being developed right now. it will take more time. if we want complete solutions we need some kind of scheduling... (project completion, betatesting, creating a single package, testing again, localization and again testing)