Auto-Patcher For Windows 98se (English)

[ingohaake]

I've just installed the October 2007 Full Release on two older computers. Awesome! The machines are running like new. Thank you very much for your EXCELLENT work, soporific!

[RetroOS]

...

However, i should say something on the subject ... in the short term, a new AP will hopefully be out within a week, and in the long term, i'm hoping to switch to a GUI interface. More details soon ...

Oooh! AP to get a facelift?

It's sooo nice to see that's there's still dedication to 9x in 2008.

Take your time soporific.

BTW, I posted some new tweak stuff in your 9x Tweaks Pack thread.

[soporific]

Oooh! AP to get a facelift?

It's sooo nice to see that's there's still dedication to 9x in 2008.

Take your time soporific.

BTW, I posted some new tweak stuff in your 9x Tweaks Pack thread.

what tweaks thread? can't you see i'm desperately trying to avoid touching that thread in the hopes that it will just go away? seriously, thanks for the info, i will get around to updating the Tweaks pack, only about 6 months overdue ...

AP NEWS: --- i've found a few more updates and a better way to install them taking less time, and that is to use the work of the elusive Maximus Decim. I've got his cumulative updater doing all the work for 127 updates which are all grouped together in the first module. This saves quite a bit of time when using AP on a newly installed OS. I'll be trying out his other packs as well, so my promise of a new AP within a week might just have been slightly precipitous, there's lots to wade thru. MD did quite well with the updater but not so well that it was a breeze to integrate. Oh well. So, i've already managed to replace over 100 files in AP with the one file, but still keeping all the functionality, ie you still get to see what updates needed installing, and AP still checks that each of them was installed correctly via the checking method.

If anyone knows of any problems people have had using MDs Cumulative Updater 2.50 which he released mid December, please say something.

[Eck]

Don't know. But I kind of liked having a folder with every update in it and also watching as each one installed with explanation. Hopefully the pack will work as designed when integrated if that is the way you'd like to go, however I was never so obsessed with space or size saving. I think I'd like it to stay the way you've had it, but of course a nice looking gui is fun. No problem there.

I've used the Maximus-Decim MDAC updater many times, though not recently because I got lazy and just hoped that whatever the Auto-Patcher installed would put whatever that stuff does onto the system properly. I've been a bit concerned that the 2.5 version is really supposed to be installed first as it includes components not part of 2.8. Maximus-Decim's MDAC updater included parts of the older version so we got the whole set of stuff when using it. I'm positive we're missing something when just installing MDAC 2.8. Not sure precisely which parts (used to know but it's been a long time and a lot of info that used to be part of my 98 knowledge now escapes me). So I consider Maximus-Decim's MDAC pack superior to just installing 2.8, if that is any indication of how his full updater does its thing.

Perhaps his MDAC pack would be an appropriate package to substitute for whatever we're using for MDAC 2.8 now. I believe it includes a whole bunch of stuff besides just MDAC, some of which may already be included in Auto-Patcher so you should check out his readme. If I recall, you only see the readme with the details when you run the package. Maybe there was a version of Visual Studio in there? Again, memory fails. But you can run the package and check out the readme to see. Just cancel out of it instead of continuing. I can tell you that it works flawlessly.

Virtualbox running 98SE seems way slower, at least in internet browsing speed, than I recall from my VMWare days. I tried up-ing the video memory to 16MB, putting the virtual memory fixed to triple the 256MB I have it running, activating the ConservativeSwapfileUsage=1. Still slow going. I've heard it works better with XP as a guest as they have it optimized for the NT versions of Windows. But I've got the real Vista to run stuff that can run in XP, so that wouldn't help me. It's things that were broken since XP SP2 for security reasons that used to run on 98SE (and XP until SP2) that I would like to be able to virtualize. They are still broken in Vista and Wine and Dosbox do not run this 98SE stuff I'm talking about. They require QuickTime, Shockwave within software (not the browser) so I am concerned that they will be just too slow and skippy to make the bother of this worthwhile. That's how video is on the internet using Windows Media Video embedded streaming, slow and skippy. Sounds great when it's not skipping, but the video still frame jerks a lot. Not too promising.

Well, I'm almost near the point of testing those things out so we'll see. I'm not optimistic. And to think I again gave up a 98SE/XP/Linux dual boot to put Vista on here as my Vista/Linux dual boot. I was also swapping some hardware and I figured since I paid for Vista I might as well try to use it again as the more time advances the better they'll get it optimized for performance. Of course once I had it setup I've been in Linux all the time anyway. But no, it hasn't stopped thrashing the hard drive all the time yet as far as I could tell. Maybe the new Service Pack?

Qemu may be the way to go for 98SE. There's a nice 3rd party GUI for it that is in Debian. Maybe I'll check it out if things don't satisfy with Virtualbox. Qemu is supposed to be better at the 9x systems than Virtualbox. But just not as easily configured. The major virtualization companies are concentrating on current operating systems as those are where they can make money from supporting them for business use. So I don't blame them, but really they'd probably just need to give it a few tweaks to get it running 9x better. Too bad.

The only folks who still care enough to give attention to 9x are in this place it seems. Any virtualization wizards around here?

[soporific]

Don't know. But I kind of liked having a folder with every update in it and also watching as each one installed with explanation. Hopefully the pack will work as designed when integrated if that is the way you'd like to go, however I was never so obsessed with space or size saving. I think I'd like it to stay the way you've had it, but of course a nice looking gui is fun. No problem there.

Thanks for the feedback, it was interesting to hear your thoughts on the proposed GUI change.

1. The reason the next AP is taking so long is that i've had to carefully go thru everything inside MD's updater. You still get to see the realtime checking of updates, the only difference you see is that instead of "installation complete" it says that it will be completed after reboot. After wading thru 127 updates, if any need to be installed, then AP calls MD's Updater and runs it. After reboot, AP still goes thru each install to make sure it was installed. So, really, you will be hard pressed to see much difference. The modules have changed - the following have been taken out and the contents merged with the System Stability Hotfixes module: Laptop Hotfixes, Other Recommended System Hotfixes, and Rare and Obscure System Hotfixes.

2. If i do make a GUI for AP, it will work basically the same. In stead of a DOS box, you'll see a Window but hopefully the same messages you're used to seeing. The reason i need to do this is to avoid all these out of memory messages i get while testing. Its driving me nuts.

[Eck]

Sounds great! The whole point is not to need to wade through zillions of updates ourselves, so there really isn't any need to have then all extracted and available to install individually if Auto-Patcher can handle it. I was only thinking of the case where one didn't want to run the whole program and just apply/reapply one update. For that it was nice to just have the thing in a folder to double-click without needing to re-run Auto-Patcher and go through the whole procedure. Mostly though, we only need to run Auto-Patcher once and everything gets installed so it's really no big deal.

Regarding the GUI, I like GUI's so that's great. However I think it is important to be sure it can run in 8 bit 256 color with the Standard PCI Graphics Adapter (VGA) as well as normally in whatever resolution an installed video driver would feed it. Sometimes folks will use Auto-Patcher before installing videocard drivers and sometimes they'll have the drivers installed. Some GUI's are finicky and won't run without Hi-Color 16-bit. When I used to use the Internet Explorer 6 SP1 Microsoft cd to install IE6, I needed to browse to the folder's setup executable because the GUI wouldn't run on 16-Color 8-bit 256K graphics. Many folks will install Auto-Patcher before the video drivers because some drivers require Direct X 9 installed prior to the driver setup. With VirtualBox this didn't matter as SciTech Display Doctor runs (although it complains about it) on the older Direct X. But NVidia/ATI need the newer Direct X installed first.

[Eck]

By the way, it's mainly internet speed that is slow on 9x in Virtualbox. I just played some of my old games and programs, including that QuickTime/Shockwave thing, and they work just fine and at full speed. Occasionally the audio/video would get out of synch, but it would correct itself in a moment.

So, although browsing the internet is too slow for comfortable usage the programs I want to run that only run in 98 do run at full speed. Nice! I burned the Virtualbox vmi file to a dvd+r, so hopefully I won't need to install and setup Windows again when I jump around Linux distro's and format.

They must just optimize that AMD/PCNet virtual ethernet card for NT operating systems. It works, but it's slower than 56k dialup on my cable internet with NAT. I wonder if there's something I could adjust for that? I recall the 98SE defaults usually were okay, but also some guide linked from mdgx.com with some recommendations. I'll go see if I can find that again.

[soporific]

AP NEWS: I have had to completely junk the new code that included MD's Cumulative Updater. The reason is that there is something in it that causes a huge problem if you then subsequently install Revolutions Pack 7. And that problem is - you can't use Auto-Patcher ever again. For some reason, Windows loses the ability to create new Virtual Machines (DOS boxes) with the environment space dynamically set. Ie, normally you can use COMMAND.COM to create a new DOS box with a set Environment Space, and i have used this extensively all the way thru AP because it uses so much space to get everything done. Now that this functionality is gone, AP is useless and will not work on your machine. I have tried to get around this, but if would need a complete re-write of the program, and that is going to happen soon anyway but i'll be switching to a GUI interface, and so this problem won't ever be there again. But that's months away. So, in the meantime, i'm still using the old code.

I have managed to salvage some stuff, it certainly wasn't a complete waste of time, so they'll still be lots of new additions, but not as many as before. MD's updater is actually very very good, its a pity it causes such a bad problem to the point i have had to announce a quarantine on the updater so no-one loses the ability to use AP.

Comments welcome.

[Tihiy]

Drop RP7?

[RetroOS]

AP NEWS: I have had to completely junk the new code that included MD's Cumulative Updater. The reason is that there is something in it that causes a huge problem if you then subsequently install Revolutions Pack 7. And that problem is - you can't use Auto-Patcher ever again...

Hi soporific,

I cannot understand how using MD's CU can cabbage the Command Interpreter...

Surley CU does not modify system settings or files?

It must be the way the updates are installing.

My understanding is that CU chains the installs in one hit?

A problem right away is that some updates contain overlapping and different versions of certain files.

If some locked files need replacing at boot time, then an update may leave a bad version matching of system files...

Scenario:

Install A has all updated files including some for locked files that are scheduled for WININIT boot processing.

Install B has all updated files but some are older than Install A. When these older (but newer than current) files are scheduled for boot replacement, they will effectively backdate those files to a newer than current, but older than the matched file set of Install A.

The problem is solved by installing A, rebooting, installing B - what AP does now.

Anyway, that's how I figure it. B)

[soporific]

Drop RP7?

aw, Tihiy, that's very gallant of you but its not the correct solution. The problem does not reside with RP, i can done countless tests to confirm for me that the decisive update is MD's cumulative Updater. I am just testing now to see if v2.40 does the same thing as a request by MD (who got in touch!) ... and anyway, i can drop RP from Auto-Patcher but that's not going to stop other people from combining the two updates (CU and RP) and then they will wonder why they can't use AP. People have already reported this, and i've still got some checking to do but this is how it seems to be.

AP NEWS: I have had to completely junk the new code that included MD's Cumulative Updater. The reason is that there is something in it that causes a huge problem if you then subsequently install Revolutions Pack 7. And that problem is - you can't use Auto-Patcher ever again...

Hi soporific,

I cannot understand how using MD's CU can cabbage the Command Interpreter...

I can't either ... i must admit, the evidence is still circumstantial -- i have to do more combination tests to see if the combination of CU + RP results in AP not working everytime. It has so far. I haven't been able to do a combination yet that results in AP working. I have been able to confirm that with everything ELSE installed (except CU) and then installing RP, AP works fine.

It is strange however. I am testing v2.40 to see if that gives the same result. Thanks for the feedback.

[Drugwash]

Here's how I'd do the whole thing, if I had the needed ingredients (brains, time, knowledge, will, available hardware, etc):

- grab all available individual updates - no super/ultra/mega packs; individual updates are easier to manipulate when updating/unpacking/extracting/etc.

- process each and every individual package and define a chain of component dependencies, based on version numbers (is that MS cumulative update rule still true?)

- based on user choice, extract only necessary elements from chosen packages, always the highest file version of each

- create current dependency chain and if any incompatibility found, mark respective chain as incompatible, try to find alternatives and notify the user of the incompatibility and any alternatives found

- final step - actual system patching - could be done the usual way (replace whatever possible and leave the rest for next run after reboot) or - as some other app did long ago (can't remember which one) - forcibly unload each and every running application and module (including and especially explorer.exe), unregister modules, upgrade them, (re)register needed modules and relaunch explorer.

You may have a look at nopey's command line parameters - could come in handy at some point, who knows...

P.S. Happy New Year!

I'm still lurking around but not feeling in shape to embark myself on this endeavour yet.

[Eck]

Don't see all the fussing being done to redesigning the Auto-Patcher as being necessary. The gui, yeah, if only to get rid of out of memory errors. But that patch included that increases it in Autoexec, when installed first as I did, seems to work fine.

I didn't see someones updater package fitting into Auto-Patcher anyway. When the individual updates contained in something like the MD Cum update are tinkered with to fix or changed to include newer files, which happens often with the IE updates and other specific 98SE updates as well, what's to be done? Include the updated version to be installed after the cumulative package? It can become just a big mess and hard to deal with.

Having all the updates separate makes it easy to obsolete older ones for newer ones, etc. Very easy to change between each Auto-Patcher version.

I see the Maximus-Decim stuff as an alternative method of updating 98SE, INSTEAD of the Auto-Patcher. Even that MDAC thing could mess things up, as I think it's better to have some of those Visual Studio file updates packaged together by MDGx installed after the official MDAC (or whatever the order is, I think it was MDAC stuff first but I stopped paying attention long ago when I started using Auto-Patcher.)

Trying to combine all these combo packages was the same tedious and hard to figure out situation that existed prior to the Auto-Patcher. You're just taking the hassle upon yourself instead of making us do it. I'm telling you, you don't need that hassle either!

In my opinion, just keep up the current nice way of things where there are modules, and aspects within the modules that can be toggled off or on, with sensible defaults set for those users who don't actually check what's available to toggle. I think it's vital and good that toggling is available, but some will just push go and not even look. So conservative defaults is a good way to go. I like that stuff is off by default and I can go in and turn on the ones I want to add. I'd get nervous about the safety of Auto-Patcher if I noticed myself toggling a lot of things off.

This last run was great, as I mostly wanted to add things. A couple of toggle offs, yeah, but they were harmless things like the 7Zip install since I paid for WinRAR long ago and still just use that along with the Plus!98 pack's compressed folders as the default for Zip.

I didn't even see Revolution Pack in there (don't remember anyway). I'd keep that as something a user would need to specifically turn on! (You guys getting along now? Sort of? )

[RetroOS]

Don't see all the fussing being done to redesigning the Auto-Patcher as being necessary. The gui, yeah, if only to get rid of out of memory errors. But that patch included that increases it in Autoexec, when installed first as I did, seems to work fine.

...

Trying to combine all these combo packages was the same tedious and hard to figure out situation that existed prior to the Auto-Patcher. You're just taking the hassle upon yourself instead of making us do it. I'm telling you, you don't need that hassle either!

...

Eck's got a good point!

I figure, get out a 2008 release of AP to keep the hungry 9xers at bay, then as a side project, work on a new installer...

AP as it stands is a model piece of batch scripting!

Top marks to soporific.

As far as the 'out of environment space' issue goes, I've had no problem for some releases since the various work arounds were put in place.

(exception is the Paint Update that spawned it's own command session)

Edited January 15, 2008 by RetroOS

[davidj_1962]

I agree with Eck completely! Soporific, you have done some wonderful work, and, as a Windows 98 SE user, I commend you for all that you've done! The important thing is that you've provided a vital tool that allows us to continue to successfully use Windows 98 SE, and, bottom line, it works very well. The GUI interface and the integrated installation routine would be nice, but it's more important, IMO, to have a tool that delivers the updates and fixes correctly and safely to my operating system, with updated versions of AP provided within a reasonably quick turnaround time. Keep up the great work, and, again, Thank You!