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patchworks

Open Sourcing Windows 9x

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Hi RJM,

So what about Linux ? If I understand well, it is written after UNIX code (of the sixties ?). Was not UNIX code also copyrighted and/or patented and fell in the public domain before being worked upon by Torvalds and then the other Linux devellopers ?

Linux was wrote from scratch by Linus Torvalds, it did follow the same POSIX standards as UNIX to make it compatible with UNIX and a similar file structure but the code was completely different.

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I disagree. Part of open-sourcing Win9x is open-sourcing drivers.

Of course, but it's a long-term goal, this means you've misunderstood my open sourcing idea approach.

I repeat: using what ALREADY exist, build a WPI that substitutes original MS-components (Internet Explorer, Media Player, Notepad, Calculator, etc, etc, deep to the kernel) with open source ones.

The benefits is to have a fully functional OS since the "0.01 pre-alpha" release (that means attract people in the project), then devs can open source every component not yet implemented by 3rd party.

The drivers question is really interesting, but i think that an indipendent team should work on this; for example it would be great to involve DriverPacks.net guyz... (that joined open source last November) :sneaky:

Edited by patchworks

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Volunteers needed !
The idea behind this is due to the proliferation of unofficial patchs/service packs.

Quite simple (in theory): gradual substitution of Windows 9x components by open source ones.

Starting from simple 'components' (such as shell, icons, embedded apps, etc) to the deep core (Memory manager, Kernel, etc).

I think that the sad truth is that there are no suitable volunteers available. Please think who is needed:

- programmers with very deep knowledge of programming and windows internals

- they have to be Win9x enthusiasts (not too likely, most such people want to work with the newest technology)

- they have to have plenty of time (do you know top programmers that are not constantly busy?)

- finally, there have to be many skilled testers

The reality is that

- untested, not working packages are published here

- even simple drivers like generic SATA driver, generic EHCI (USB 2.0) driver, generic HDA bus driver that are needed for new hardwere were not created for Win9x

- nobody is able to add few simple finctions to KUP project

- nobody is able to put a few existing files to one working package, sesp21a is more than one year old

I think that it has absolutely no sense to dream about open source Win9x.

Petr

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Of course, but it's a long-term goal, this means you've misunderstood my open sourcing idea approach.

I repeat: using what ALREADY exist, build a WPI that substitutes original MS-components (Internet Explorer, Media Player, Notepad, Calculator, etc, etc, deep to the kernel) with open source ones.

The benefits is to have a fully functional OS since the "0.01 pre-alpha" release (that means attract people in the project), then devs can open source every component not yet implemented by 3rd party.

The drivers question is really interesting, but i think that an indipendent team should work on this; for example it would be great to involve DriverPacks.net guyz... (that joined open source last November) shifty.gif

I know that it is none of my bussiness, but what I understand from this, is that you want us to go to work. And not discuss the importance and meaning of each part that must be included, such as drivers for example.

Go create and stick with a batch file or something man.

Here is your code:

All replacement *.exe files are located in C:\replacement , you only have to have a automatic unzipper and launch the batchfile after unzip.

-Run this in dos mode by floppy or so-

@echo off
echo Going te replace iexplore.exe with some lame open-source browser, because I hate firefox too.
echo.
cd C:\windows\
rename iexplore.exe iexpore.old
copy C:\replacement\iexplore.exe C:\windows\
cls
echo Replacing notepad with notepad++
echo.
cd C:\windows\
rename notepad.exe notepad.old
copy C:\replacement\notepad++.exe C:\windows\
echo.
echo.
echo Now your windows has open-source replacements!, WOW!
echo Congrats!!
echo Copyright (c) 2006 - 2020 PatchWorks A.K.A : *your name*
exit

voila!!

I am sorry for my sarcastic behaviour, but patchworks is saying we should go ontopic on "helping him open-source windows" (wich sounds like a good thing, honestly), but he keeps repeating it so many time that it seems that he want to continue, and not discuss all that has to bes discussed to make this work, he is pushing it a little to hard now in my opinion, sorry..

Greetings,

NL-Stitch

Edited by NL-Stitch

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I don't get the point. How are you open-sourcing Windows (the OS) by substituting applications (which are not part of the OS strictly speaking) with open-source ones?

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Well, probably my english is not that good or... i assume that you can easily understand what's in my mind.

Anyway the problem IS NOT to collect, install alternative softwares/drivers/libraries, etc but to ERADICATE (completely uninstall, not just renaming the exes... do you know Ieradicator ?) the original ones, keeping the OS functional.

Anyway i have wasted even too mutch time in supporting this idea, so here you go...

I prefer to support/promote open source projects like ReactOS or (better) Haiku.

...bye !

Edited by patchworks

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Reply to patchworks

Anyway i have wasted even too mutch time in supporting this idea, so here you go...

I prefer to support/promote open source projects like ReactOS or (better) Haiku.

...bye !

We all know that you have the drive to complete this project, but in my opinion you are just taking the steps from the wrong side.

Please take the time to read the folowing:

My point of view of your position and my solution for you

You have a goal to implement/replace windows standard with open-source ones, thereby creating a much more stable, reliable OS. There is nothing wrong with that.

You know what software could replace files, what I mean man, is that you already have the needed puzzle-pieces. You just have to put them together. And that is also where you take the wrong turn. In my opinion, you are relying o other people to help you get you started. This is not what happend here. You got critics, methodes and "what you should do" post thrown at you. Don't take that s*** man, prioritize.

The one (you) who chooses to join msfn.org and want to make a project has to come up for it by yourself.

Think about what you want in this project, collect all the information you have gained in this forum topic, and make it work.With or without help. Did you think I could always rely on the developers @ sourceforge? Hell no. They dropped from december 2005.

If you are not a code-breaking developer just like me, you have to search how to do things. Only ask questions where you need awnsers. You have to fill in the blanks. Get a WPI working or any installation method. Do not wanna-be coder, be a developer.

You cannot plan revolutions, you cannot make up revolutions, Revolutions go their own way - Quote from Linux:Just for fun by Linus Torvalds.

So.. what I am telling you is.. GET IT DONE!

Greetings,

NL-Stitch

Edited by NL-Stitch

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The truth is I really doubt that we'll ever be able to truly opensource Win9x. We'd need a kernel, of all things. Sure, the source code is out there, but it's not legal to use. ReactOS is the closest thing we have. Perhaps a modified ReactOS kernel with functions only found in Win9x would be the best thing to get working.

Essentially, all OS's start off as a kernel. We need to start from there, and build off of that. ReactOS is the best candidate, since it can already run some NT and 9x-based apps.

I believe that we may be able to pull a kernel replacement off, if we try to work together on this project, instead of fall apart.

Here's to hoping that 2007 brings us a kernel replacement for Windows 9x.

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I wonder, how do the ReactOS people do it? If I would do it, I'd decompile kernel32.dll, and then make my own code based on how it works.

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The ReactOS team does something called "Clean Room Reverse Engineering". What this entails is a couple people that write down how functions within a program work, in simple terms. The ReactOS programmers take that information, and implement the functions based upon the simple terms written by debugging teams. The two sets of people are not allowed to talk to one another, in terms of exchanging decompiled binaries. The programming team is never to see the original binaries at all.

To be honest, it's amazing that this approach works at all... however, on the other hand, it's the perfect way to document all unknown NT functions. The WINE project has a great resource for this sort of stuff.

I feel that it may be possible to do the same sort of thing with 9x. Since many functions in 9x have been kept in NT for compatibility, I'm relatively sure that a FREE, OpenSource kernel could be created based upon ReactOS and WINE (Which is actually what ReactOS's team is doing now, to get a free NT going).

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The ReactOS team does something called "Clean Room Reverse Engineering". What this entails is a couple people that write down how functions within a program work, in simple terms. The ReactOS programmers take that information, and implement the functions based upon the simple terms written by debugging teams. The two sets of people are not allowed to talk to one another, in terms of exchanging decompiled binaries. The programming team is never to see the original binaries at all.

To be honest, it's amazing that this approach works at all... however, on the other hand, it's the perfect way to document all unknown NT functions. The WINE project has a great resource for this sort of stuff.

I feel that it may be possible to do the same sort of thing with 9x. Since many functions in 9x have been kept in NT for compatibility, I'm relatively sure that a FREE, OpenSource kernel could be created based upon ReactOS and WINE (Which is actually what ReactOS's team is doing now, to get a free NT going).

Interesting info

Is reactos a dos os? if not it might be a steep learning curve to adapt. IMO I think we need some c++ coders to adapt what we already have, wdm`s unfortunately seem to rely on these headers, the ddk is not very assembly friendly. I just hate programming in C

Once driver capability is available it might also help the kup, by bouncing back via a vxd to the none functioning game authentication id requests which are presently missing etc.

It would be real nice if somebody could adapt reactos, its a real shame they didnt get very far with their previous freewin95 project.That would certainly have been something to get our teeth into.

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[...] its a real shame they didnt get very far with their previous freewin95 project.
I wonder why that happened... Maybe because they realized it'd be just a waste of time?

I mean, the ReactOS project celebrates ten years of existance already, and all they've achieved so far is a handful of applications that merely get installed and only a few that run more or less acceptably.

Let me think: what have MS done in these ten years? Windows 95B/C, Windows 98, Windows 98SE, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows Millenium, Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, Windows Vista.

Now let me ask: what would be the purpose of having an open-source Win9x, whenever that may happen (meaning: be completely functional), considering the trend that software development follows nowadays - which is: ditch 9x support, embrace Vista?

As for ReactOS, I haven't got a chance to test it yet, so I'm not aware of what it's capable - save for what I've read on their website - but I intend to do so in the near future. However, it would be very useful to many people out there if it had a real DOS environment together with its NT platform, so users could switch between DOS and NT at will, for example when playing old DOS games or running other applications that specifically need a pure DOS mode.

If that would be possible (if it's not already), then I think all our efforts should be pointed towards helping the ReactOS project, instead of starting from scratch with a project that would have no useful purpose anymore by the time it would show any positive results.

Please note that these are just spontaneous thoughts that came to my mind and in no way do I intend to mock anybody's efforts either here, at ReactOS or elsewhere. I do respect everybody's work.

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Well, i noticed a very interesting news from the Fridgesoft's news page:

Friday, 01-26-2007

HarddiskOgg is now Open Source! I finally decided to release the source code to the public, as I just do not find enough time for big updates. You can find the source code at SourceForge. If you find the source code useful, or want to contribute, please let me know.

hdoggscreenshot.gif

Official website

I suggest it as a possible Windows Sound Recorder substitute.

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copyrights do expire.

(afaik on work produced after January 1, 1978, 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter) also it worth remembering that national laws do not apply everywhere (stated example is under US law).

Copyrights expire in 95 years, or 125 years! That's great!

I would be lucky to be alive and have Alzheimer's! :realmad:

Edited by RJARRRPCGP

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OK, for those who are interested in, here's the link @ Revolution OS, "a 2001 documentary which traces the history of GNU, Linux, and the open source and free software movements."

The interesting fact is the method that Stallman used to create GNU (start form 12:50th minute): "...a large number of separate programs... replace these programs one-by-one...", that substantially is the same - but with some modernization, such as the "opening manager tool" (an hacked package manager) - that i suggested for open sourcing win9x idea.

:thumbup

Edited by patchworks

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