"The Matrix" discussion thread

[prathapml]

Hey how many of you are fascinated with the Matrix trilogy?

Well, I *STILL* have my head reeling with it, and keep on looking up whatever docu/info people write about it.

Probably no other work of fiction encompassed such a wide range of disciplines - physical, chemical, biological, technological, sociological, psychlogical, meta-physical, theological, mythological............

Lets have interesting things about the movie and its concepts here (by which I mean, if you don't like or if you hate the matrix series, you are unwelcome to this thread). And anyone who posts a link to some other page will get a "GRRRR" from me - post the info right here!

First off, I'd like to know more about the Merovingian.

He supposedly lives within the matrix, but has survived the umpteeen times it has been rebooted. He owns the keymaker. He was a Neo. He is neither an enemy nor friend of the matrix - he lives in "no man's land". Please add to this info.

Ask whatever else you want to know about the matrix too!

[prathapml]

Next, I want to know what really is the position of the Oracle. Is she the mother of the matrix? Is she for real, acting out of free will? Or is she placed there at the behest of the architect?

And then, at the final end (after Matrix Revolutions) - what's happening?

Man and machine at peace? Or is it "for now" as the architect says? If its just a temporary truce, why did Neo/Trinity have to make such a big sacrifice?

If there were 6 Neo's in all, have there been multiple Morpheus'es as well?

And then, since we now know that Zion has been destroyed and re-built 6 times, I wonder *WHO* built it? Were the humans who started life there, literally at stone age level? If so, how is it that by 2251 AD, they have already 6 times reached the stage where they could think of confronting the power of the machines? (coz development of civilisation takes thousands of years atleast).

[Synapse]

even after watching the Matrix series like 7 times (all 3 movies) I still have a hard time understanding the movie lol.

but in my opinion the Merovingian is, Just a program.. that tries to form an evil empire.

and for the oracle it was stated that her purpose is to unbalance the equation. so there is always a good and a bad to everything that happens.

like.. you get a fast car but if you drive fast you can crash thus making a bad side to having that fast car. (kinda bad example but whatever)

oh and you can GRR at me all you want.. but heres a helpful site: http://www.matrix-explained.com/

[Ge0ph]

even after watching the Matrix series like 7 times (all 3 movies) I still have a hard time understanding the movie

For me, it all made better sence after I watched Animatrix. It seemed to fill in a few peices of the puzzle.

[Crispy]

Next, I want to know what really is the position of the Oracle. Is she the mother of the matrix? Is she for real, acting out of free will? Or is she placed there at the behest of the architect?

It think it is quite clear that she is acting out of of her own free will. You must remember that she was created with the sole pupose of understanding the human mind, so it makes perfect sense that she would be able to have the full array of human emotions and therefore also the ability to want peace. But another thing you must remember is also that the oracle is in exile in the matrix. Any "liberal" changes concerning the humans in the matrix might have a positive effect on her situation... remember that it all ends with her being in the park with the architect - why did'n he just delete her?

One thing I find very interesting is the fact that the machine have the ability to program the humans as smith does... If they wanted to they could just reprogram those individuels that very *thinking* of leaving the matrix and make them forget it or whatever ... I think this either implies that the machines actually do care about the feeling of the humans or that the architect released a beta version of his software ... seeing how pleased he is about his work I am inclined to believe the first explanation... This would also explain why the machines actually do accept Neo's plee for a truce in the end: They actually want to, but are really afraid what might happen if they did ... we have to remember that somewhere inside the huge colective memory of the machines are memorys of the time when the humans where in power... So basicly what Im suggesting is that the machines are just a big bunch of chickens?

****, I could go on forever about this, lol ...

[prathapml]

Nice thinking Crispy!

A brief characters list, of people seen in the Matrix - http://www.briandemilio.com/matrix.html

Also, more things that have me wondering....

As things stand at the end of the 3rd part ("Revolutions"), there's a truce between humans and machines. Now let's say the machines don't have unlimited desires in the way humans do - that leaves the door open for a part4!

I mean, humans in Zion would want control over other regions on earth that the machines presently control. Smith says:

"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure."

I liked the below quotes too. Morpheus to Neo:

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

Now that reminds the words spoken by Cypher

restaurant scene

Agent Smith: Do we have a deal, Mr Reagan?

Cypher: You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.

Agent Smith: Then we have a deal?

Cypher: I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I want to be rich. You know, someone important, like an actor.

Agent Smith: Whatever you want, Mr Reagan.

Cypher: Okay. I get my body back into a power plant, you reinsert me into the Matrix, I'll get you what you want."

-------

Cypher: All I do is what he tells me to do. If I had to choose between that and the Matrix, I'd choose the Matrix.

This one sounds eerily true. To the extent, that the more you think about it, the less probable it feels, that you are living in a real world.

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization."

They can keep on improving the matrix, to reach the point where humans suffer as much within the matrix, as in the real world.

Also, so many things happen all the time...... for which there seems no explanation other than that you're living in the matrix world.

Yup, this movie series is the perfect topic to discuss among friends who are also fans of the movie. Its not an "alternate track" movie, its not an obsession.... it is an explanation of life itself...

@Bi0haZarD

GRRRR!

About the web-site link, its not like I don't know to google.... I have read all I could find on the topic. In fact, I have a 400 MB RAR (saved-web-pages archive, all related to Matrix). But still there's a deep feeling of un-satisfiedness.... Its like the more you hear about it, the more you *WANT* to hear about it! (I know, it sounds crazy, but that's how it is)

[prathapml]

More tidbits:

http://forums.matrixfans.net

Author: Matthew R. Sheahan <[44]chaos@crystal.palace.net>

Darrell Fuhriman ([46]darrell@grumblesmurf.net) wrote:

> i've know quite a few people -- including people who should know

> better -- that absolutely love the matrix.  i can't for the life

> of me figure out why.

Perhaps you should contemplate its recovery value.

For your general edification, here's some of my commentary on the

movie from some weeks back.

      |    Matthew R. Sheahan    |

      | Crystal Palace Networking |

Saw the Matrix again.  #1 I picked up on things like how the agents

are agents, not in the sense of secret agents, but in the sense of

software agents.  #2 was when I caught things like the illuminati

referring to Keanu as "coppertop".  #3 is when I noticed the character

whose real name was Reagan talking about how "I want to be someone

important... like an actor" alongside "I don't want to remember

_anything_, you understand me?  _Nothing_."  #4 is when I noticed

quite how intensely theological the movie is.

The trick is, it's largely not your run of the mill Biblical bits,

it's Gnosticism.  The Prime AI is obviously the Demiurge; it literally

created the world -- and the world is an illusion.  Not to mention he

is mentioned to have been the single intelligence that created the AI

race (God split himself into many parts that he might have friends).

The agents are obviously the Archons; Morpheus says as much when he

goes on about how "they guard all the doors, they hold all the keys".

The first matrix, the "perfect world", is the Garden of Eden, which we

were kicked out of because of knowledge -- the knowledge that it

wasn't real, specifically.  The One is described as a man born inside

who could change things how he wanted, who freed the first ones; Jesus

much?  And of course Keanu is the second coming of the messiah, who

will deliver his people from bondage.  "You're my savior, man; my own

personal Jesus Christ."  Who died and returned.  Good thing it didn't

take three flippin' days.  One will note he was also tempted and gave

the predictable modern "retro me satanas", and had his Judas.  (What

were they doing immediately before the trip inside where the betrayal

occurred?  Why, eating, of course.)

You know that the name Lucifer is from a mistranslation in the book of

Isaiah of the King of Babylon's title Star of the Morning, right?

Well, they were talking about a specific King of Babylon:

Nebuchadnezzar.  The name of the ship.  Lucifer, Prometheus, the

light-bringer who rebelled against the Demiurge to free men.

Hell, not to show how much of my gnosticism comes via Phil Dick, but

the goddamned storage towers were black iron.

I am so utterly contemptuous of the people who came out of it saying

"nice eye-candy".  This movie is an IQ test.  It's exactly as

intelligent as its viewer.

[mark]

I have only watched the first film once so my take on it is slim compared to you guys. Having read what you have written:

How can you know true happiness or joy without some pain or misery to compare it too? If all you know is pure joy and pure happiness without something to guage it by, then you sound like you might be a zombie from some prefect world horror movie. (Walgreens, a drug store here in the US, has a commercial like that, spooky, very)

Is the 'system' a reflection of the way we behave? Did the subconcious of the original programers come through in the behavior of the agents? Is Smith's statement, about us being a virus, a partial reason for the Matrix itself? In that it controls our growth and spread? Any organism that wipes out it's host, dies. Our host is the whole world. Do you ever get to see the 'real' world in the Matrix? Can you really die in the Matrix? When the Matrix is reloaded, is it a complete re-installation? (wouldn't your body die without the support of the system?) or is it just a 'Windows repair'? Dang. Now I'm going to have to go back and watch them all.

P.S. How would you like your version of the Matrix to be written Mr. Prathapml? We are ready to take you order.

[SiMoNsAyS]

well i was (am) a great fan of the first movie, i find it the best sci-fi action movie of the 20th century (and this is a lot for me).

i was very escited with the idea of 2 new great movies like the first one... and i was (am) very disappointed.

i still need to have a look at then entire saga to understand most of things... like why neo is able to control machines out of the matrix (i find it really stupid), how mr. smith ("a machine") is able to control humans out of the matrix (?!).

i've read a lot of reviews and explanations about the movies' facts but i find some of them "weirds" and the others "stupids".

at the end of 2nd movie you misunderstand that the real world is a matrix inside the matrix, if you think about that it can explain why neo and smith has those powers in the real world and the real emotions of "programs". the 3rd movie was the worst without a doubt, how it ends, like a paralelism between neo and jesus and how they die to save the world and their final images both... on a... crucifixion!, i must say that i found it so offending...

at the end of my thoughts i will preserve the idea of the first matrix movie leaving out of my mind the idea of the last two, but i still have curiosity on how the last 2 became so... fx-latinwords-stupidargued'... that's why i'm going to own the matrix trilogy collection that includes the 3 movies, plus animatrix and making offs together with commentary of actual philosophers and film critics (a total set of 10 dvds). perhaps that way i could understand what the wachowsky bros. tried to show and how it became sh!t.

the final reflexion: in the first movie morpheo says that would never be peace between machines and humans... in the last movie the same character is very proud of the battle's end and how the humans will still remain some free and some slaves...

edit: i haven't voted because i can't say the matrix series rules! and i can't say it doesn't the same as i can't say i can't say. i miss the option "i loved the 1st movie and the highway persecution and hated the other 2 movies"

Edited January 2, 2005 by SiMoNsAyS

[prathapml]

@DL

Someone will customize the matrix story for me?

ha ha.... thanks but I like it the way it is (so FANTASTICALLY murky and mysterious, Something for the mind to chew on!).

How did neo control the machines even OUTSIDE the matrix?

"The One"s power extends far beyond the matrix itself. That fundamental imbalance in the equation gives him power over "The Source" itself (think of it as a REAL source-code for a running program). Now you should remember that since the source is the root of the matrix itself, "the One" effectively has power over everything in the matrix. The machine city is also controlled by the source, therefore Neo has power over the machines.

Now, you will recall that Neo had combined with Smith towards the end of the first part, so part of his power in some way gets "rubbed off" on Agent Smith (who's no longer an agent in later sequels, he's a virus himself! ). So that explains those 2 phenomena.

Hmm.... that reminds me... I also want to hear more in detail about The Source and the architect. Those are still concepts I'm not clear about. What is The Source, really? And is the Architect a real being, or a program (like the agents) conjured by the matrix to interact with Neo?

I also want to know why its so imperative for humans that the imbalance in the equation be balanced. (if you remember, the emergence of "The One" is because of that imbalance, and thereafter his acts lead to more and more instability in the virtual world). What is the need for the system to be purged/cleansed as far as humans are concerned? The instability caused by the imbalance and then the actions of the The One was a problem only to the Matrix. The humans (and Neo) could have just let the matrix and all its systems collapse, and thereafter those in Zion city could have gone and rescued/freed the people enslaved in the bionic capsules in Machine city.

One thing I must say though. That I was sad the original lady who played "Oracle" died. (I'm referring to the fact that "the oracle" was played by some other lady in "Matrix Revolutions").

And hey SiMoNsAyS, you got me tempted.... Yes, there was that 10 DVD package I'd read about.... Yet to see what exactly is in them!

I somehow think I was lucky. Because I saw all the relevant parts of the story at the right time and in the sequence the Wachowski brothers intended us to see it - so I knew enough to not be stupefied and got addicted enough to keep thinking about it all the time. Saw the first part ("The Matrix") in 2000, then saw Re-loaded and Revolutions in (2003 or 2004, I'm not sure). In between, I managed to read up on a lot of web-sites and matrix fan forums, then played "Enter The Matrix" (that game is supposed to show the story-line that happened between the 1st part and 2nd part, Niobe makes an appearance). Then, many web-pages had a vague description of what happens in "The Animatrix", read that too at around that time (before seeing "Reloaded").

On a side-note, I remember reading somewhere that the Wachowskis were carpenters or something.... That they managed to come up with something like this, speaks volumes about one of the below:

a. Their intelligence, and the legendary "enabling environment" of the US (as in, today's trucker can become tomorrow's business magnate).

---OR---

b. Their laziness on the job, and therefore their fantasy trips (mentally) to find excuses for days-off or being late

[mark]

@DL

Someone will customize the matrix story for me?

ha ha....  thanks but I like it the way it is (so FANTASTICALLY murky and mysterious, Something for the mind to chew on!).

No, no prathapml. I mean how do you want the matrix that you 'live' in to be customized.

[gamehead200]

All I can say is:

IT ROXXORZ!!!

[Synapse]

@Bi0haZarD

GRRRR!

About the web-site link, its not like I don't know to google....  I have read all I could find on the topic. In fact, I have a 400 MB RAR (saved-web-pages archive, all related to Matrix). But still there's a deep feeling of un-satisfiedness.... Its like the more you hear about it, the more you *WANT* to hear about it! (I know, it sounds crazy, but that's how it is)

just making sure lol. and yes i understand cause now that you brought up all this i've been reading more into the matrix. cause theres always a feeling of "why didn't i think of that before"

[prathapml]

I mean how do you want the matrix that you 'live' in to be customized.

ooh, I'm talking to Agent Smith?

I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I want to be rich. You know, someone important, like an actor.

[mark]

I mean how do you want the matrix that you 'live' in to be customized.

ooh, I'm talking to Agent Smith?

I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I want to be rich. You know, someone important, like an actor.

Simsalabim*************poof************ You are Rock Hudson.

Question. Is Cypher's statement a comment on his intelligence or the intelligence of the general audience? Especially considering the depth and convolusions you guys are talking about with the movie.