Win98 on old x235 server(socket 604 2 sockets), first reboot windows logo freeze and some server specific question + NT4 boot

[ruthan]

Hi,
i have old iBM x235 server with 32bit Xeon 2.8 Ghz and 3GB  RAMand 6 SCSI disk array + PATA IDE 80 GB disk + CD-ROM to experiment to experiment, i managed to install NT4, Windows 2000, XP and Windows sever 2008 x86 + Debian 11 on it. 

  I have tried to install Win98 SE  (vanilla + rloew 512 MB patch and Quick install version)on it, on IDE PATA disk, to by pass maybe not existing IBM ServeRaid SCSI i5 driver (Its Adaptec 320 based, but so far i did not found working non IBM, Adaptec driver for it)..

 Some questions:
1)  There is some driver for DOS for this SCSI controller, i dont tested it yet.. Maybe in could be loaded at the start Windows 98.. im not sure it would bypass missing Win9x driver or not full Win9x driver is needed.?

 2) Windows 98 install first part copy of files is running fine, but after first reboot, its stuck on Windows 98 logo loading (Rloew >512 MB RAM driver is already included in install cd image), when i try to use the safe mode its the same, i dunno why maybe because of SCSI controller is present, or im using IBM RSA II PCI addon card (Radeon 7000, plus ethernet and some USB port) as display card. Im not sure i can just disable SCSI controller in bios or remove temporaly raid PCI-X card, without losing data.. I can remove RSA II card and use onboard video (Radeon XL) or addon PCI card with PCI-X compatibility - i have couple of them..
  If use some DOS 7.1 boot on floppy or CD-ROM boot, im able to boot into Dos fine.. its used to start Win98 install too.

  Otherwise there is just addtional Adaptec 160 controller (without any device) addon card, besides of RSA card and ServeRaid.. Yes i know i can try to connect some SCSI disk to it too and install Windows 98 on it.

Update:

I was able to finish install by using F8 and command prompt and win /D :X :S etc..   command.. ,

problem is that i still have to start WIndows this way, i have tried to win /D :X or win /D :S.. it seems that it does not matter what is used, but there is something in standard boot what needs to be bypassed.. 

Hmm even win without parameter just works, but i have to go command prompt first, direct normal boot is stuck.

Edited March 26 by ruthan

[SweetLow]

What about the first thing wou have to use when you got problem with booting - BOOTLOG.TXT (dedicated to solving exactly such problems)?

[pangoomis]

Are you saying choosing Command Prompt Only via F8 and then typing simply "win" boots system normally?

Can just set BootGUI=0 in MSDOS.SYS and add "win" to autoexec.bat to automate this weird workaround.

Also choose Logged (BOOTLOG.TXT) option in F8 menu as SweetLow suggested and check the logs.

You can also try HIMEMX.EXE.

[ruthan]

I have checked bootlog its as usually not outdated, probably from some previous successful boot.

There is some display error and some fonts errors - it could be related to Revolutions Pack 9.7, it not sure if these are critical or not. 

LoadStart = DISPLAY.drv
LoadFail = DISPLAY.drv Failure code is 0002

LoadStart = vga.drv
LoadSuccess = vga.drv
LoadStart = DISPLAY.drv
LoadSuccess = DISPLAY.drv
InitDone = DISPLAY
Init = Display Resources
InitDone = Display Resources
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\MARLETT.TTF
LoadFail = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\MARLETT.TTF Failure code is 0016

LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\serife.fon
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\serife.fon
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\sserife.fon
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\sserife.fon
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\coure.fon
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\coure.fon
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\symbole.fon
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\symbole.fon
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\smalle.fon
LoadSuccess = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\smalle.fon
LoadStart = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\LUCON.TTF
LoadFail = C:\WINDOWS\fonts\LUCON.TTF Failure code is 0016

When i try bootlog boot menu option 2, it return me after while back to boot menu, after i select normal start, get classical freeze and bootlog is not update at all.

10 hours ago, pangoomis said:

Are you saying choosing Command Prompt Only via F8 and then typing simply "win" boots system normally?

    Yeah exactly..
    Himex, may help, because when i tried to load win after start from classic Win98 floppy i got freeze.. That is probably because of 512 MB+ memory, which Rloew patch bypass i checked autoexec and config,

there is  virtually nothing. So you are saying that i should add into in himemX?

I have tried BootGUI=0 but behavior seems the same i logo is shown and freeze after if im not wrong, maybe i need add some boot options etc, create some boot menu items.

[SweetLow]

On 2/27/2025 at 1:58 AM, ruthan said:

When i try bootlog boot menu option 2, it return me after while back to boot menu

WHAT? If you got reboot when try to boot with logging - check the new BOOTLOG.TXT

[MERCURY127]

what disk cntrs mode is selected in BIOS? try set it to any non-RAID option.
try disable in BIOS all disk cntrs and other devices, except really needed for boot, which possible.

[ruthan]

On 3/1/2025 at 1:02 PM, SweetLow said:

WHAT? If you got reboot when try to boot with logging - check the new BOOTLOG.TXT

 I have lots of systems where bootlog.txt or ntbootlog are simply not working,. So im not surprised that its not working in this case too. Im sure if because im using using grub at the top of Windows boot loaders, Himex, or pached io.sys or because some fixing of booting because of multibooting fixes. Also i case of USB booting of Windows it does not seems that bootloging is working. It was always hit and miss on my machines and even when it froze it often hard to find out where was ther problem, but it could be a lot of lines above the last entry.

Quote

 what disk cntrs mode is selected in BIOS? try set it to any non-RAID option.
try disable in BIOS all disk cntrs and other devices, except really needed for boot, which possible.

 Its server there is not much options at all, there 2 SCSI controllers with im using 1 for Win 2000,XP and Server 2008 + Debian, second Adaptec 29160 is for tape drive.

 Windows 98 and NT are loaded for 1 single port PATA controller this controller does not support RAID at all. NT bootloader booted fine from the same disk, now its rewritten by WIndows 98 bootloader and i have to restore it, maybe it will bypass that WIndows 98 boot freeze. I had problem to  restore Windows NT4 boot loader, because boot cd needed for it NT4 server emergency floppy (not some install start floppy), but this floppy is not some standalone to download, but you have to create it when you have running system, i had not time yet install WinNT4 server into some virtual machine..

    I want to keep SCSI enabled, yeah it could be root cause. Because SCSI controllers afaik as understand often using IRQ 13 which are often used by IDE PATA disk controllers too.

    I can just select first boot device.. and options are Harddisk 0 - IDE, Hardisk 1 - SCSI controllers.. Only thing which can do is change IRQs for SCSI controllers ant there priority - select primary slot.  PATA Disks on these systems are mostly mentioned for failover and CD ROM drivers. There are some strange things this like IRQ 40..
     Im not even sure if can disable on board SCSI, because its realized by some on board chip + addon card combo with own CPU and memory, i so far i did not wanted to do it because its not fast machine to restore installations from backups.

  
  There are another strange thing, which could be problem, like addon Remote management card (RSA), which is per IBM machine line specific and its used as video card, it has some Radeon 7000 chip (on Board is ATI Rage XL, but its autodisabled when RSA card, or addon Videocard is added and there is not any option to select videocard). If i place some PCI videocard into system, when i place it in slot a top of RSA card, its booting but there are is error about shared resources, so RSA card is not working at all, when i place it in slot under RSA card, only RSA is working and im getting error code 1802.
  This code is know in IBM knowledge base, there is paper to it its explained that there has to be enough place for ROM between 640 Kb and 1024 kB and there is info that only solution is remove some other addon cards and still in some cases like mine is unsolvable because Roms are too big (i removed all expect videocards and primary SCSI it was still not enough). There is mentioned that is hard PC standard limit. Im sure that newer machines somehow bypassed it, but not this machine. 
  
   I have tried to transfer Dos 7.1 / Windows 98 boot menu which are working on all other machines and tried to load Windows / MS 7.1 from it, because there is even not bypassing also loading files working, i just get into boot menu, select some options and get freeze, because any message is shown on the screen, not even step by step.. I guess that is because a bit different msdos.sys settings.

  Well i got this server exactly because i wanted to check some of these server oddities.. and i wanted to install Windows 98 on it just because all other more modern OSes were running fine.

Edited March 29 by ruthan

[MERCURY127]

i found likely problem with my experiments on "old pc simulators", when used scsi.
not sure, that here is allowed to attach or link "heavy modded io.sys file", but...
i can send it you for test to private, if you interested. or, as variant, try install ME.

Edited March 2 by MERCURY127

[ruthan]

I think that provide such file is not a problem.

I experimented boot a find out that solution is in msdos.sys add logo=0 , so it seems videocard related.

 But now i have another problem with PATA IDE, im unable to find any driver with working DMA, so there are long freezes and slow disk operations.

  I have tried all Rloew drivers integrated in Windows 98 Quick edition and all microsoft drivers, but its always the same controller driver is loaded fine.. there is always error, exclamation mark for IDE channels - always code 10..
    Only special thing on this controller is Broadcom CSB5 - that it has only 1 IDE channel, not 2, otherwise its the first board, where i did not make working PATA within Windows 98 - there is something unexpected with it.. In resource conflicts and IRQ seems same as in modern Windows - IRQ 14 and 15 is used. 

  For some reason i have the same problem with Adapter 29160LP controller its working fine with all other Operating systems, i have tried multiple drivers, they should be fine - again code 10.

  In bios are not any PATA IDE options than disable it. In Windows 2000+, i see some strangers IRQ used like 20,24.40 etc..

[SweetLow]

10 hours ago, ruthan said:

that it has only 1 IDE channel

1. Set using one channel expressy in controller properties in Device Manager.

2. After that check that you do not have NoIDE key in Registry HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\VxD\IOS

10 hours ago, ruthan said:

In Windows 2000+, i see some strangers IRQ used like 20,24.40 etc..

It is APIC and HAL using it.

[ruthan]

I already tried..enable only 1 channel, no change.

If  there should be NoIde key, it inst.

So far i allways make every PATA / SATA working with DMA - with Microsoft or Rloew driver, this first one where i failed, there should be something special.

 I searched for some universal PATA driver, but found only one for NT 3.51 to Windows 7:
https://alter.org.ua/en/soft/win/uni_ata/uni_ata.php

 It seems that someone would have to convert Linux kernel 2.6+ driver to WIndows 98.

  I also tried to search for Serverwork CBS5 from other company like Supermicro, but it seems than such boards always support only Windows 2000+ where its working with Microsoft drivers.

I also tried to use additional IDE PATA controllers - LSI / Highpoint  / VIA and disable on board PATA controllers, but with some machine not boot at all, which others Grub - for multiboot is not able to find a disk on controller, on it take like 2-3 minutes to boot into grub. After slow boot - controllers are working fine in OS as not booting device.DD

    Yes i know, i can exchange PATA disc for Sata and use Sata controller.. still i would like to fix it..

 

Edited March 29 by ruthan

[MERCURY127]

are u try install w/o any grabs/crabs/etc?

[SweetLow]

7 hours ago, ruthan said:

If  there should be NoIde key, it inst.

No, it should not.

Ok, put somewere the output of:

https://github.com/LordOfMice/Tools/blob/master/devtree.zip

devtree /p /vv > outfile

 

[ruthan]

6 hours ago, MERCURY127 said:

are u try install w/o any grabs/crabs/etc?

Sorry, i dont fully understand. Do you mean without additional drivers - no QuickInstall version? Did not yet.

 

5 hours ago, SweetLow said:

No, it should not.

devtree /p /vv > outfile

 

Im not by that machine right now, i will probably tomorrow, but there is HWinfo report:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/go0489h4k030ycmolsedp/IBM-X235-HwinfoReport.MHT?rlkey=6muj48q9e16jea9og2wt9relp&dl=1
  
 And  some device manager resources pictures from Windows 98.. and Windows 2000 and XP, where its working.
For some reason Adaptec 29160 has the same problem, i dunno maybe because its PCI-X machine.. It has only 1 PCI slot and it seems to be designed for Videocard or Remote control Videocard card (I removed it, it now, but it behaved the same with it).
  I have tried additional PATA controllers in PCI slot, i dont have PCI-X compatible one (im that with PCI-X voltage hole). I have only such Videocards (Radeon 7000, Matrox G200, Geforce 2 / Geforce FX ) + Soundcards (Audigy SL - SB090), they are working fine win PCI-X slots.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/q6oysvztxlw13sb5ue324/x235-Pata.zip?rlkey=d53ybbu8js90cp66xlmjlp2th&dl=0

[MERCURY127]

12 hours ago, ruthan said:

Sorry, i dont fully understand. Do you mean without additional drivers - no QuickInstall version? Did not yet.

i mean "without ANY potentially intervening layers between hardware and windows". GRUB does intercept some interrupts and modify some system tables during his work.