DOS and 9X/ME on Z170 Test

[rloew]

I have encountered a reliability issue with USB Networking.
USB Sound is very simple and reliable.

For a Z170, as it stands now, I would go for a PCI USB Card and a PCI SATA Card.

[pangoomis]

If only there was a card that had both USB 2.0 and SATA on a single PCI-E x1 slot that was compatible with 98SE, then my build would work flawlessly.

Are there adapters from PCI-E x1 to PCI?

[98SE]

1 hour ago, MrMateczko said:

If only there was a card that had both USB 2.0 and SATA on a single PCI-E x1 slot that was compatible with 98SE, then my build would work flawlessly.

Are there adapters from PCI-E x1 to PCI?

On eBay I saw a PCIe to 2x PCI adapter board.

But for your motherboard since it is MATX you would have enough room for the 2 PCI slot space and lose the PCIe slot.

You could always sell your MB after finding a proper one with PCI and PCIe slots in ATX form factor.

However it is better to go with a better ATX motherboard from the start then try and fix the problem afterwards.

Sometimes the MB is cheaper than the post work around solutions.

Did your MB have USB 2.0 headers on the board?  Try those with a USB 2.0 header to rear bracket if no Rear USB 2.0 ports.  They should be Non Blue.  You can still hook up the USB keyboard to it and it should function without a driver.  PS/2 emulation mode in BIOS is usually a good thing and the USB mouse with USB to PS/2 adapter to PS/2 port the mouse won't act funny.  Or go with the Asrock MB Z270 models I listed and use the serial com port header for serial mouse which always works with DOS/3.X/9X/ME legacy support.  I also spotted a very expensive Serial Port adapter that could connect a USB device to it so a USB mouse would work on it.  Make sure there are 2 or 3 PCI slots on the MB if possible.  One of the slots might get overlapped by your graphics card depending if it is a dual or triple slot hog.

 

There might be a USB 2.0 and SATA PCI card combo but I never actively looked for it but I think I may have spotted some before trying to filter out my searches.  I'm not sure about that for PCIe but it is possible and it could be very expensive which you don't want and probably more expensive than getting a straight ATX MB with PCI slots.

Most of those PCI USB cards are cheap maybe $5-$7?

...17

Edited September 3, 2017 by 98SE

[jaclaz]

3 hours ago, MrMateczko said:

Are there adapters from PCI-E x1 to PCI?

Sure.

https://www.startech.com/eu/Cards-Adapters/Slot-Extension/PCI-Express-to-PCI-Adapter-Card~PEX1PCI1

http://www.ably.com.tw/main.htm

http://amfeltec.com/products/flexible-x1-pci-express-to-pci-adapter/

...2^4+2 

jaclaz

[ragnargd]

Read this:

 

 

[pangoomis]

My case (Aerocool QS-182) is only Micro-ATX/ITX compatible, I do not like big cases.

I wrote multiple times, ALL USB ports on my motherboard work from the USB 3.0 controller! 98SE DOES NOT see any USB 2.0 controllers! Neither does Windows 7 or any other OS!

You NEED USB 3.0 drivers to use ANY of the USB ports on my motherboard regardless of the OS (Win8+ has them built in) PS/2 Simulator option does not work with Windows 7, but does work with 98SE.

As for the MoBo choice, I didn't buy it for 98SE, the 98SE was just an afterthought to see how easy/hard would it be.

With the PCI-E x1 to 2x PCI adapter, I could get a PCI USB 2.0 card and a PCI SATA card with 98SE drivers.

Then, I put the USB Sound card I already have, and it should be working all fine.

...20

That's about $40 from AliExpress :/ That's double the price I've paid for 7900 GTO.

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by MrMateczko

[jaclaz]

2 hours ago, MrMateczko said:

...20

That's about $40 from AliExpress :/ That's double the price I've paid for 7900 GTO.

 

It's also exactly the same I just paid for dinner (actually 30 Eur, but I also left some tip) and also double your post number, what gives?  

jaclaz

 

[rloew]

When I first saw USB 2 Headers listed in the Specification for that Motherboard, I assumed that they would support EHCI and be compatible with 9x.
I now know that they are connected to a USB 3 Controller even if they only support USB 1 and 2.
MrMateczko sent me a SCANPCI dump that proved it. A XHCI Driver is still needed to use them.

A similar thing happened with USB 1 and 2. The early USB 2 Controllers had a separate USB 1 Controller in parallel, so you could still use the ports as USB 1 in Windows 95.
Newer Controllers only have one programmable Controller so now USB 2 Ports cannot be used in standard Windows 95 period, even though they support USB 1 Devices.

[98SE]

1 hour ago, rloew said:

When I first saw USB 2 Headers listed in the Specification for that Motherboard, I assumed that they would support EHCI and be compatible with 9x.
I now know that they are connected to a USB 3 Controller even if they only support USB 1 and 2.
MrMateczko sent me a SCANPCI dump that proved it. A XHCI Driver is still needed to use them.

A similar thing happened with USB 1 and 2. The early USB 2 Controllers had a separate USB 1 Controller in parallel, so you could still use the ports as USB 1 in Windows 95.
Newer Controllers only have one programmable Controller so now USB 2 Ports cannot be used in standard Windows 95 period, even though they support USB 1 Devices.

Yes this is what happened in XP and a predictor of the early XP OS death if USB 2.0 ports based off the eHCI were to go away.  Without eHCI ports starting with Skylake 100 series this caused problems for installing XP via USB up to Windows 7 as well.  However 98SE wasn't known as a very heavy USB dependent OS at the time.  I never used it all during my 95 days.  I still recall seeing them pushing USB devices back in 1998 at Fry's that Windows 98 supported up to 128 USB devices.  Using a P4 MB at the time I stuck with the serial mouse and PS/2 keyboard and since the USB ports were USB 1.1 on the rear and the USB 2.0 were internal headers I never actually used the USB 2.0 ones until recently when I added a USB 2.0 header bracket and I wish they had made the rear USB ports 2.0 speeds or I would have probably liked USB at the time and used them more.  Later I did use a USB optical mouse -> PS/2 adapter so using both PS/2 ports for Keyboard and Mouse was the norm and I don't believe the loss of eHCI USB 2.0 ports will mean 98SE can't be used.  I installed 98SE multiple times with just a USB keyboard -> USB to PS/2 adapter to the PS/2 port.  If I ever had any USB mouse hooked up it would act crazy when moved.  So I wouldn't mess with a USB mouse till post desktop install was complete swapping the USB mouse to the PS/2 port and using any USB 2.0 port with the USB keyboard should work with the BIOS PS/2 Simulator.

USB 1.1 pales in speed to USB 2.0 that it's like night and day.  The USB 1.1 speeds were only effective for USB keyboard and USB mouse or a small USB flash drive so my use of USB was minimal then until XP came and my Z77 Ivy Bridge quad core combined it made it user friendly even for any webcam to hook up and work without any special drivers.

Also your Z87 was an unfortunate choice for a first modern Intel MB to test the waters again.  That's when they intentionally killed XP driver support altogether.  The only redeemer is I believe eHCI ports were still alive on Z87 and Z97.  The iGPU is wasted without any XP and Vista driver as they cut those two out and made it W7 and later only.

As far as mathematical computations you probably could have gone with a Z68 and overclocked a cheap i5-2500K and got more value than out of a Haswell / Z87 CPU that couldn't stand the heat and couldn't be overclocked as easily.  The Broadwell desktop chips were disappointing for a secondary upgrade choice as the options were limited and no new Celerons either if you wanted a budget Broadwell Celeron build.  It was built in obsolescence as most Z97 boards killed off PCI slots from the start so hunting for PCI slot motherboards could be an adventure.

Microsoft and Intel knew what they were doing when eHCI was finally evicted starting with SkyLake to get all Windows 7 and older OSes out and Windows 10 into every PC.  Only Windows 8.0+ can work with xHCI ports natively now.  Their master plan of Big Brother is alive and well.

 

4 hours ago, MrMateczko said:

My case (Aerocool QS-182) is only Micro-ATX/ITX compatible, I do not like big cases.

I wrote multiple times, ALL USB ports on my motherboard work from the USB 3.0 controller! 98SE DOES NOT see any USB 2.0 controllers! Neither does Windows 7 or any other OS!

You NEED USB 3.0 drivers to use ANY of the USB ports on my motherboard regardless of the OS (Win8+ has them built in) PS/2 Simulator option does not work with Windows 7, but does work with 98SE.

As for the MoBo choice, I didn't buy it for 98SE, the 98SE was just an afterthought to see how easy/hard would it be.

With the PCI-E x1 to 2x PCI adapter, I could get a PCI USB 2.0 card and a PCI SATA card with 98SE drivers.

Then, I put the USB Sound card I already have, and it should be working all fine.

...20

That's about $40 from AliExpress :/ That's double the price I've paid for 7900 GTO.

 

Okay I'm still not sure if your MB had onboard USB 2.0 headers or any rear USB 2.0 ports but if you say you've tested all the Ports and the header ones and they still don't show up in 98SE then you really are screwed and must go with internal USB cards.  But if a USB sound card is not necessary then keep reading.

All these restrictions, MATX case means you can't use the extra space inside the case to get the 2 PCI slots.

However I found the best way to work with your limitations but it comes at an extreme cost.

I would have considered this in your situation if I felt it was worth the money and I really needed it.

Since you are stuck in that case and buying another case is out of the question and another motherboard would add to the cost this is the best all in one solution and probably looks the best.

It will cost $134 USD total ($116 + $18) according to this link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCI-express-PCIe-x1-to-dual-PCI-slot-Riser-Adapter-Enclosure-for-graphics-card-/282283875809?hash=item41b96e1de1:g:nyIAAOSwB09YSRCX

Now if this was the cost of Paclaz's recent dinner and generous tip I would go for it because it is very nice and compact and access to the sound card on the front of the case would be a nice feature.

Just remember we living in your limitations.  It would have been nice if you had some extra internal slots but alas.

So either wait it out or save up and get that adapter above.  It's your best all in one solution fitting into your case.

Also the USB ports could be on the front.

Now the question is what are some good USB network devices for 98SE?

Now you could use a PCI network card here in slot 1, PCI USB card in slot 2 (USB Port 1 - Sound Card)

It now all comes down to money and I'd love to hear you try this out on your setup.  It would work.

23...

Edited September 3, 2017 by 98SE

[rloew]

The i5-2500K only four Threads. I have eight. It would have taken almost twice as long to do those computations.

[pangoomis]

@jaclaz Don't bring the food argument! I want to make my stomach happy! I do spend some more money on food, but you won't stop me, and neither I can stop you! I know I could save up for all the cards if I lived on bread alone, but that's a topic for another time. Through all those years of your activity, you're still (sometimes) funny as you have ever been.

@98SE I do not need a PCI network card, the built-in Realtek Gigabit Ethernet controller on the motherboard works fine with 98SE, you would have known that if you read my original topic carefully. That product is indeed the most elaborate solution there could have ever been, it would look as clean as it can, without taking off the side cover and having all those PCI cards dangling at free will. Everything would be inside the case without breaking the expansion slot covers (as those are not screwed in like in most cases)

[ragnargd]

This item really looks interesting...

...but wait. Well...

....all the pcie-to-pci-adapters i have have another 12V-molex for power. This one doesn't.

I wonder, what the additional power was for. Bridge-chip? And how then does this solution work without?

Interesting is the EXTERNAL solution, PCI via USB3 so-to-say...

I'm really, really tempted, it may solve a problem i have, my Audigy getting grilled between two GPUs, and making strange noises, that relate to movement of the mouse on the screen...

[98SE]

 

 

2 hours ago, MrMateczko said:

@jaclaz Don't bring the food argument! I want to make my stomach happy! I do spend some more money on food, but you won't stop me, and neither I can stop you! I know I could save up for all the cards if I lived on bread alone, but that's a topic for another time. Through all those years of your activity, you're still (sometimes) funny as you have ever been.

@98SE I do not need a PCI network card, the built-in Realtek Gigabit Ethernet controller on the motherboard works fine with 98SE, you would have known that if you read my original topic carefully. That product is indeed the most elaborate solution there could have ever been, it would look as clean as it can, without taking off the side cover and having all those PCI cards dangling at free will. Everything would be inside the case without breaking the expansion slot covers (as those are not screwed in like in most cases)

Your original topic got lost with the specs.  I tried to get LoneCrusader to copy it to the 1st post of your Disappointment thread so people could follow what the MB and specs were and I can't keep up beyond that I tried.  It probably would have been helpful to add that on your own to the new thread you made updating the failure since no link directing to your MB specs post was made to let others catch up.

Yes I think this will be your most elegant... and unfortunately quite expensive solution but it "depends" on how badly you want to test out that video card on your new MB and try to match the benchmark you envied.

2 hours ago, rloew said:

The i5-2500K only four Threads. I have eight. It would have taken almost twice as long to do those computations.

Intel Core i7-3770K baby!  The best of the old quad core, eight threads money can buy with a working Intel iGPU for XP and Vista on the Z68 and had a passmark rating of 9544 but still limited to 32GB Max on board.

I thought money was a concern but if it isn't then I would have opted for this one instead of the Z87 going back to X79 you could increase to 64GB on most 8 memory slot ones or the ultimate Big Bang-XPower II (MS-7737) to 128GB although I wonder what kind of memory would get you 16GB DDR3 and it must be very expensive server class.

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Big-Bang-XPower-II.html#hero-specification

You'll want the motherload CPU i7-4960X (6 Logical cores, 12 Threads) the most powerful native XP Beast without hacking the hell out of your system with add on cards.  Passmark rating 13861.

X99 would probably work with some hacking but I can't tell if any onboard devices would be XP supported without checking every integrated device for XP drivers and most will not work with 98SE without add on cards.  Add the PCIe to Dual PCI adapter I listed and your BIG Bang would be the best DOS/98SE/XP/Vista/7/10 Legacy build at least in theory since it hasn't been done yet.  You could probably hack the hell out of a X99 and get more mathematical performance if you sacrifice some compatibility for the sake of extra number crunching.  I think X99 might have not cut out the eHCI so that might be the high end you can do with the least amount of hacking for 98SE to work.

Edited September 3, 2017 by 98SE

[rloew]

I didn't buy the Z87 for XP compatibility. I bought it before I even started using XP regularly. It was inexpensive and had what I needed for 9x. I have the I7-4770 CPU.

For Math, the FX8350 is significantly faster. If I want to got further I will get a ThreadRipper. 

[98SE]

2 hours ago, rloew said:

I didn't buy the Z87 for XP compatibility. I bought it before I even started using XP regularly. It was inexpensive and had what I needed for 9x. I have the I7-4770 CPU.

For Math, the FX8350 is significantly faster. If I want to got further I will get a ThreadRipper. 

It does look like you picked the lowest end quad core 8 thread CPU you could get your hands on easily.

Since this number crunching is important have you thought about making some program to tap into a Pascal GTX 1050Ti or high end NVIDIA TITAN XP?

Pascal lacks XP drivers you would have to go to a GTX 900 series for native XP without hacking.  But certainly if bitcoiners are mining off those things they could assist in your mathematical computations instead of CPU alone.

 

Is more CPU cores / threads really the best way for the number crunching you demand?

Would a lower clock frequency high core / thread count be as effective?

 

On the cheap end there's a 15 Core / 30 Thread - Ivy Bridge E

E7-8895 v2

http://ark.intel.com/products/79209

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=intel+82546&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS1&_nkw=E7-8895+v2&_sacat=0

Could go for as low as $700 / $1K BIN if no takers.

 

Threadripper 1950X is ready to buy for $1000.

https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Threadripper-32-thread-Processor-YD195XA8AEWOF/dp/B074CBH3R4

 

4GHZ

16 Cores

32 Threads

180W

 

If there was a low powered ThreadRipper with these specs:

2GHz

32 Cores

64 Threads

 

and a super low powered

1GHZ

64 Cores

128 Threads

 

For the sake of argument most likely the more cores = more wattage but let's assume this could be possible.

 

Which one of the three would outperform the others in your mathematical number crunching?

Which one of the three would win on graphics gaming assuming the game took advantage of all Cores/Threads?

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by 98SE