Now That Windows 8 Classic Support Is Ending Soon ...

[Jody Thornton]

 

If it's important to you, Microsoft stops supporting Windows 8.0 four weeks from now.

 

--JorgeA

 

Well, this snippet is interesting:

Windows 8.1 does not change any hardware requirements compared with Windows 8 or Windows 7 and existing Windows Store apps will work with Windows 8.1.

 

Would it be possible that the good MS guys are wrong or lying?

 

 

jaclaz

 

No I've known this for quite awhile Jaclaz.  The processors in an HP wxw8600 (which shipped with Windows 7 in 2009) will run Windows 8.1.  The xw8200 with P4-style Xeons will Blue Screen on boot.  I can load Windows 8 setup, but I cannot load Windows 8.1 setup.

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2058683/new-windows-8-1-requirements-strand-some-users-on-windows-8.html

 

I was trying to find the extensive thread on eightforum.com where several users run into this issue unknowingly.  Boy were they angry.  Here's one:

 

http://www.eightforums.com/installation-setup/34549-win8-1-upgrade-win8-0-8-1-2-computers-one-failed.html

Edited December 16, 2015 by JodyT

[Jody Thornton]

 

If I were to install Windows 8 Classic, install Classic Shell for a Start Menu, conceal all Metro stuff, and run as Administrator (so in other words, I'm only going to use explorer based stuff; no metro apps), would there be anything I'd be missing from Windows 8.1? 

 

If it's important to you, Microsoft stops supporting Windows 8.0 four weeks from now.

 

--JorgeA

 

Yes I know.  Hence the thread title.    But I figured if NoelC is running Windows 8.1 successfully without updates (so no telemetry BS), I'd basically be in the same boat as him, except I'd even get updates in to January 2016.  Just was trying to rationalize moving to a newer version of Windows.  I have had good experiences setting up 8.1 for friends.  I wondered if I'd be equally happy with original Windows 8.

[Jody Thornton]

 

That's what I was always told jaclaz.  Whatever the actual reason, the Windows 8 x64 DVD boots and starts setup.  The installation for Windows 8.1 doesn't.  No biggie.

 

If you have time and opportunity, please run the latest CPU-Z on it, so that, on knowing for sure what CPU is inside, we may pursue the reason why 8.1 doesn't like it, even if just to satisfy our collective curiosity. 

 

Here ya go!

[JorgeA]

 

If it's important to you, Microsoft stops supporting Windows 8.0 four weeks from now.

 

--JorgeA

 

Yes I know.  Hence the thread title.    But I figured if NoelC is running Windows 8.1 successfully without updates (so no telemetry BS), I'd basically be in the same boat as him, except I'd even get updates in to January 2016.  Just was trying to rationalize moving to a newer version of Windows.  I have had good experiences setting up 8.1 for friends.  I wondered if I'd be equally happy with original Windows 8.

 

Whoops -- I read the entire thread and then went back to reply to your post. By the time I got around to that, I'd forgotten the title of the thread! 

 

--JorgeA

[Jody Thornton]

 

 

If it's important to you, Microsoft stops supporting Windows 8.0 four weeks from now.

 

--JorgeA

 

Yes I know.  Hence the thread title.    But I figured if NoelC is running Windows 8.1 successfully without updates (so no telemetry BS), I'd basically be in the same boat as him, except I'd even get updates in to January 2016.  Just was trying to rationalize moving to a newer version of Windows.  I have had good experiences setting up 8.1 for friends.  I wondered if I'd be equally happy with original Windows 8.

 

Whoops -- I read the entire thread and then went back to reply to your post. By the time I got around to that, I'd forgotten the title of the thread! 

 

--JorgeA

 

You should hear me laughing when I saw your blushy emoticon.  No worries. 

I guess what I really want to know is (with Classic Shell installed), will I be able to hide charms, and run Explorer-style Windows 8 the same way as with Windows 8.1, and has the Update 1 on 8.1 fixed anything that I'd be hard-pressed to put up with on Windows 8 original.

[jaclaz]

 

No I've known this for quite awhile Jaclaz.  The processors in an HP wxw8600 (which shipped with Windows 7 in 2009) will run Windows 8.1.  The xw8200 with P4-style Xeons will Blue Screen on boot.  I can load Windows 8 setup, but I cannot load Windows 8.1 setup.

 

Yep, I understand that you knew it   , but I was pretty much sure to have read somewhere an official MS page where it was stated that there were no hardware issues with the 8.1 upgrade, I don't think it was the same JorgeA found , but that one is anyway an indirect confirmation that I was recalling correctly. 

Just to prove that - set aside the demented choice of inserting a changed hardware requirement in what essentially is a Service Pack - they also failed to document it properly.

Anyway , the issue is specifically about the CMPXCHG16b instruction, right?

Or is it *something else*?

 

jaclaz

Edited December 17, 2015 by jaclaz

[Jody Thornton]

Hey Jaclaz, I cannot confirm that the CPU instruction you mentioned is the culprit.  However, I do agree with that word "demented" as a fair description of making an oh-so slight change to hardware requirements on what you correctly labelled as a service pack.

 

Nonetheless, I'm still hoping NoelC will chime in on this thread.  I know what he has done with his Windows 8.1 installation with much success (basically updating to a point where Windows still operates at an optimum fashion, and then stops updating).  I would think that with Windows 8, I would get updates to January, then it stops as well, and I don't even have to block telemetry updates.  So as long as I can live without whatever Update 1 brings to the table, it sounds like I'm good, until I switch out the machine.

[dencorso]

Anyway , the issue is specifically about the CMPXCHG16b instruction, right?

Hey Jaclaz, I cannot confirm that the CPU instruction you mentioned is the culprit.

That is the main reason I've asked for the CPU-Z cpu identification Jody kindly provided.

I do intend to delve into that question as soo as I can, perhaps even this weekend, or maybe a little later. I´m really curious about it. And I think the link Jody provided to eightforums may also provide another good start-point to investigate it.

 

Nonetheless, I'm still hoping NoelC will chime in on this thread. I know what he has done with his Windows 8.1 installation with much success (basically updating to a point where Windows still operates at an optimum fashion, and then stops updating). I would think that with Windows 8, I would get updates to January, then it stops as well, and I don't even have to block telemetry updates. So as long as I can live without whatever Update 1 brings to the table, it sounds like I'm good, until I switch out the machine.

I´m quite confident you'll be as safe as 7sp1 or 8.1 with updates stopped, but NoelC's specific advice sure is warranted and much welcome here, of course!

[Jody Thornton]

Well I looked into what improvements are made with both Windows 8.1 and the Update 1, just to see if I can live without the improvements

 

With 8.1 itself, I lose:

Booting option to desktop (I think Classic Shell takes care of that)

Multitasking of Metro apps (don't care)

Start Button (Classic Shell helps here)

 

With the Update 1 (I lose)

Metro Title Bars (don't care)

Default Boot to Desktop (Classic Shell bails me out)

 

So I don't think I miss out on performance improvements per se, so I think this might be a go.  I might upgrade from Vista to 8 this week)

Thanks all!

[alacran]

In order to install 8.1 x64 you can use WinNTSetup to deploy the system: http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/149612-winntsetup-v3855/

 

And from a PE apply this patch before running the OS (I found this on an old tread in MDL):

 

 

Windows 8 CPU Feature Patch (Bypass Windows 8 CPU feature checks)

W8CPUFeaturePatch can be used to bypass the checks for the availability of the following CPU features in Windows 8: PAE, NX, SSE2, CMPXCHG16B.

Which patches do I need?

    Click Remove PAE check if your CPU doesn't support PAE
    If your CPU doesn't support SSE2, NX or both (missing PAE support implies missing NX support) click Remove SSE2 and NX check
    To enable support for more than one logical CPU core after patching NX, click Fix hyper-threading in hal.dll and Fix hyper-threading in halmacpi.dll
    If you want to get rid of the digital signature warning on boot after applying one of the patches above, click Remove winload patchguard x86
    Click Remove various CPU feature checks in Windows 8.1 x64 if you want to skip some CPU feature checks (like CMPXCHG16B support) in Windows 8.1 x64
    Click Remove winload patchguard of Windows 8.1 x64 to skip the digital signature warning that appears on boot after applying the Windows 8.1 x64 check.

How to apply the patches?
Apply the patches from Windows PE.
W8CPUFeaturePatch.exe and W8CPUFeaturePatch x64.exe do the same things. The only difference is that W8CPUFeaturePatch x64.exe is compiled for x64. Use it if you want to patch from Windows PE x64 since you can't run 32 bit applications on Windows PE x64.

Notes:

    The patch does not make Windows 8 compatible to your CPU since it only bypasses the compatibility checks. This means that if Windows 8 tries to use one of the features, your computer will probably crash. For example, if you applied the CMPXCHG16B patch, a 0x0000001E (KMODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED) BSOD with error code 0xFFFFFFFFC000001D (STATUS_ILLEGAL_INSTRUCTION) could occur if a CMPXCHG16B instruction is attempted to be executed. The only relatively safe patches are the NX and the hal/halmacpi patch.
    The tool cannot predict how the feature checks will be implemented in future file versions of the files to be patched, which means that there is a risk that future file versions cannot be patched
    For the reasons above, don't use these patches on your main OS!
    If Windows is stuck at the spinning dots on boot, you have to disable hyper-threading or to patch hal.dll and halmacpi.dll
    You have to run bcdedit /set {default} NoIntegrityChecks Yes if you patched winload.exe

 

Source: http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/46840-Windows-8-CPU-Feature-Patch-%28Bypass-Windows-8-CPU-feature-checks%29

 

Best Regards

 

EDIT: Or if you don't want to try the patch you can install 8.1 x86, good enought for no more than 4 GB of RAM, I don't think there is a problem with your CPU using 8.1 x86 version.

Windows 8 Patches v1.5.7z

Edited December 18, 2015 by alacran

[Jody Thornton]

Yeah I'll skip the patch (but thanks for the suggestion).  I'd rather not risk instability.  The whole reason to see if I can opt for Windows 8 original is so I can stick with a 64-bit OS.

[dencorso]

Well, from what little I have been able to ascertain, up to now, JodyT has a Xeon that is an Irwindale  (according to CPU-Z).

Irwindales are Prescott-derived Xeons form early 2005...  It's not at all clear whether all Prescotts lack CMPXCHG16b.
The E0 revision adds eXecute Disable (XD) (Intel's name for the NX bit) to Intel 64.

LAHF/SAHF and PrefetchW may also be a problem, see this thread (at intel)...

I'll keep you all posted, in case I find any more specific info.
 

Now, I've found a way to determine which of these instructions behind the incompatibility with 8.1:

Sysinternals Coreinfo 3.31 checks them all at once. So, in case you find just a little more time to give to this issue, Jody, we'll know for sure. Please download Coreinfo 3.31 (from MS) extract it to any folder, and run it from a cmd box, like this:

 

coreinfo > xeoninfo.txt

 

Then colect the txt, zip and attach it, please. Sorry for the bother, but I really did not find any clear specific info anywhere for Irwindales (nor to any late Prescotts, either).

[alacran]

Lack of instruction CMPXCHG16b is the problem. Then 8.1 x64 version is not an option but x86 version could run on it.

 

This CPU is a 90 nm dinosaur good for running XP.

 

My own dinosaur a P4 HT 631 3.00 GHZ (65 nm) can run up to Win10 (I already tested it using Buid 10240 x86 as it has only 2GB RAM), in fact it is my test rig.

 

But another dinosaur I have P4 HT 531 3.00 GHZ (90 nm) can't run Win 8.1, lack of DEP, NX (if I remember well).

Edited December 18, 2015 by alacran

[Jody Thornton]

Here Ya Go!

xeoninfo.zip

Edited December 18, 2015 by JodyT

[jaclaz]

It seems like it does have all the mentioned "features":

Intel® Xeon CPU 3.60GHz
Intel64 Family 15 Model 4 Stepping 10, GenuineIntel
Microcode signature: 00000002

....

NX     *    Supports no-execute page protection

...

PAE     *    Supports > 32-bit physical addresses

...

SSE2     *    Supports Streaming SIMD Extensions 2

....

CX16     *    Supports CMPXCHG16B instruction

...

LAHF-SAHF     *    Supports LAHF/SAHF instructions in 64-bit mode

...

 

 

the mystery deepens.... 

 

The only *missing* thing seems the:

PREFETCHW     -    Supports PREFETCHW instruction

 

 

maybe that is the issue.

 

Edit: Yep, seemingly that is the problem, the PrefetchW seemingly comes from AMD (3DNow!):

http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php?topic=145900.0

it completely fails to make any sense to connect the OS kernel to the presentce of that instruction, but I guess that is ordinary for the good MS guys nowadays.

 

jaclaz

Edited December 18, 2015 by jaclaz