Microsoft to kill off the Windows Desktop -- confirmed?

[NoelC]

What about the new multiple desktops feature?

 

In my world, not interesting.

 

The way my head is organized...   I like being able to see all the stuff I need to support what I'm doing "at a glance".  On another desktop somewhere is not "at a glance", it's hidden.

 

So I have multiple monitors.  Problem solved.

 

I'm also a positional thinker.  When I'm working out what to do to accomplish whatever, a primitive part of my mind remembers its position and I go there to start it.  Thus, icons on the desktop (ooh, how quaint) work great for me.  No, I don't have 16 columns of them, randomly accumulated, but rather they are carefully placed in key locations across the top and bottom.  When I need to start Visual Studio my muscle memory just takes my mouse hand to its position.  I don't break my concentration.  It's a way to do very complex work and not lose the plot.

 

For me, having multiple desktops, each set up differently, would evoke a confusing, "I know it's over there somewhere" (when it's not, at least not on the current desktop), not unlike that "fish out of water" feeling of using someone else's system.  This is not just an idle preference, but an active rejection:  The LAST thing I want is for my desktop to be replaced with another, different one.

 

Back when I was involved with music as a musician I became proficient with one woodwind instrument.  I saw others able to pick up multiple instruments and do passably well with each of them.  That was not me.  For me it was - and is - more about quality, not quantity.

 

-Noel

[livingenzyme]

I'm always amused by doomsday whacko prophets.

 

People who don't ever want to see progress and change come in all shapes and sizes.  Some don't ever want to move on from xp.  Some don't ever want to move on from pen and paper.

 

I'm a structural engineer working in the Chicago area.  A number of years back, I ran into an old senior engineer who was determined to not ever use a computer.  All reports that were computer printouts that made it to his desk were kicked back.  Yes, he made his subordinates hand-write out everything, including calculations made out by excel spreadsheets.  No one under him was allowed to submit a report that was put together by a computer like the rest of the world.  Everything had to be made with pen and paper. 

 

If it were up to these conservatives, we'd still be keeping records with hammer and chisel. 

 

I've fought tooth and nail with some people higher up regarding how I do my work.  Mainly, they don't want to see any change.  We fought all the way to the department of transportation regarding how certain things can be done legitimately.  It's amusing to see very angry old engineers asking angrily "what if the laser isn't going in a straight line?". They didn't want the workers to use lasers.  They wanted to see good old fashion string lines that takes a whole day to set up as oppose to having a laser and gps that takes an hour to set up.

 

Apparently, these old fashion tech haters have somehow also taken over forums like this one.

 

Sad...

Edited February 14, 2015 by livingenzyme

[jaclaz]

Apparently, these old fashion tech haters have somehow also taken over forums like this one.

Or - more probably - you needed to vent some of your repressed anger and took us as target joining the board just for this reason...

 

Obviously creating a spreadsheet in a computer and then copy it by hand instead of printing it makes no sense whatever , but while the electronic spreadsheet invention (let's say Lotus123) was a BIG leap forward and the advent of GUI ones, (let's say Borland Quattro and Excel) was another step in progress, I fail to see much meaningful difference between - still say - Excel 97 (yes that was 16 bit) and Excel 2000 and between Excel 2000 and later versions, it's a looong time that spreadsheet programs are "mature" and no new useful/practical feature is added to them, the changes having been lately (like in the last ten years ) only cosmetic.

 

As a matter of fact the change to the ribbon interface in Office 2007 is in my opinion much more a worsening rather than a bettering.

 

Anyway, when an Excel Spreadsheet done on Windows 10 with - say - Office 2013 or Office 365 will be "better" or "more accurate" or "created in less time" than the same spreadsheet done on a plainer XP, Vista or 7  with Excel 2003, then we will have another step forward...

 

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

Well, if we here were "tech haters" as you say, then we wouldn't be on this forum, now would we? We'd be offline, painting the inside of a cave somewhere.

 

No, on the contrary we are tech lovers -- that's why we joined MSFN -- and we are outraged by the running spectacle of the tech we love being progressively gimped for the sake of what too many out there think will be the masses who will eagerly adopt it if only it were simplified. For the sake of "usability," it is being made less useful and all-too-often actually harder to use.

 

Instead of making uninformed judgments about the folks who participate in this forum, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with us, with our deep-seated love and respect for high technology, and with the insights and information that we have put out in the three years since Windows 8 became available.

 

And if your reference to "doomsday whacko prophets" has to do with the intended elimination of the Windows Desktop, be aware that this is not doom-and-gloom handwringing, but actually an explicit goal (scroll down to "Future Vision") which is welcomed and proclaimed by at least some Windows 8 fans (see the fourth post from the bottom at the second link).

 

--JorgeA

 

[NoelC]

Apparently, these old fashion tech haters have somehow also taken over forums like this one.

 

You should stick to your own discipline.

 

Most here LOVE tech.  But it has to be GOOD tech. 

 

You seem to feel anything Microsoft does must be good. 

 

To see people so brainwashed...  Sad.

 

-Noel

[livingenzyme]

Well, from my reading around so far, it sounds like a lot of people treat windows 8.1 as if it has no desktop at all.  It also sounds like someone is holding their family hostage and make them use the metro UI. 

 

I have been using both the desktop (while in my office) and the metro UI (when I'm out in the field).  Working with the desktop makes no sense when I'm out and about in the field at my construction sites.  I've seen some oldies trying to fumble around with their windows xp/7 laptops out in the field, and they look like clowns.

 

On the other hand, when I'm sitting in my office working on the plans or budgeting, I use the desktop.  And I assure people, it's still there.  It has always been there.  It will always be there.

 

Many people here seems to hate the fact that MS has given those of us who sometimes work on our feet an optional UI that actually makes sense. 

 

I've been saying this for years with another completely different topic, and I'm going to use that same saying here.  If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry a person of the same sex.  If you don't like metro UI, don't use metro UI.  Don't try to dictate for the rest of us what you like or don't like.

 

ALL my desktop oriented programs/apps still work just fine on 8/8.1.  I've been trying out 10 on a test machine, and all my desktop programs/apps work on there as well.  So, I don't know what this doom and gloom talk of killing the desktop is all about.

[livingenzyme]

 

Obviously creating a spreadsheet in a computer and then copy it by hand instead of printing it makes no sense whatever , b

 

Well, these old engineers at some point lost sight of the fact that the point of the calculations, reports, etc. is to make accurate assessments.  They'd been doing it by hand for decades, and they've come to believe the point is to write everything by hand.

 

Like I said, I've been fighting tooth and nail with some of them.  We went all the way to the top, and I showed them samples prepared by MS Word and MS Excel versus samples prepared completely by hand.  The auditors always found mistakes here and there with hand written reports.  Not so with excel spreadsheets.

 

And it's not like I'm trying to force them to actually use modern technology for once.  They can continue writing down everything by hand until they retire.  I just don't want to waste my time writing down pages of calculations by hand.  It makes no sense. 

 

I say this here because I see the same attitude.  It's not like people are forced to use the new metro UI.  If you think the desktop is good for everything that you do, please, by all means never use metro UI.  But some of us actually make good use of the touch-based UI.

 

In my past life, I've worked as a developer.  I've been working on several projects that makes my life a lot easier.  I've tried to develop them in wpf and have come to the conclusion (after having field tested them) that they make no sense for working while in the field.  Metro makes more sense.

[jaclaz]

Yep, good , but if you take some time reading around you will see how the almost unanimous opinions around are that the issues are about the attempt (by MS) to force the use of Metro and Apps INSTEAD of plain desktop (and start menu, etc.) and with the forcing of ugly, simplified graphics.

 

The development of tools like StartisBack were originated by this attempt.

 

The original 8.0 was essentially NCI only.

The newish 8.1 has a "new" (sucking BTW) Start menu.

 

Of course your approach of a touch enabled device on the field and of a more traditional keyboard/mouse driven in the office makes a lot of sense, and JFYI, being professionally in the same field of building/construction, I adopted it in 1993 or 1994 i.e. now more than 20 years ago:

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/154882-windows-8-first-impressions/?p=989163

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/155290-windows-8-deeper-impressions/page-169#entry1055477

 

About Excel (or other computer calculation software) I am a little bit more cautious, in the sense that the limit with computers is the GIGO paradigm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out

over the years I have seen too many people committing or being unable to detect (by using "common sense" or "experience" or by jolting down a quick handwritten calculation on the back of a towel during lunchtime) gross errors coming out because the input data was wrong to "trust" anything "machine produced" just because it was "machine produced" (though of course the cause of the error is anyway on the human part).

 

Since you are a structural engineer, you can well understand how some doubts on the approach may be raised when (as it happened to me) a freshly graduated (and rest assured, smart, capable and nice) engineer comes to you after having made - say - a SAP2000 based software calculation for a 1 mt tall, 30 cm thick, reinforced concrete wall, stating that a Ø26 mm every 5 cm is needed on both sides...

 

jaclaz

[NoelC]

So it's your opinion that Microsoft is maintaining or improving desktop usability while improving your work in the field?

 

No dig on you, but why don't other people who know what they're doing think so?  What's your theory on why power users feel Windows 8 and 10 are stepping back from desktop support?  Mass delusion?  Haters?  People who could use Windows 7 are incapable of learning anything more?

 

People who are incurable early adopters are holding their collective noses over what's being shoveled in front of them.

 

Newsflash, the desktop is being made harder to use.  Why?  Consistency is down, visual cues are being reduced (tell me you haven't struggled to find a scroll bar thumb), apparently in the name of predatory marketing.  Next version is eliminating window borders, presumably because having a visual target for the resizing controls is a bad thing.

 

With near 40 years high tech experience, I've tuned my Windows 8.1 workstation and now Win 10 test system to be essentially as useful as Win 7 was.  Note that I didn't say better.  There has been no improvement, and let me tell you, it took an unprecedented amount of knowledge and effort to get it to be a productive environment.

 

No, the delusion isn't among the masses here.

 

-Noel

[livingenzyme]

So it's your opinion that Microsoft is maintaining or improving desktop usability while improving your work in the field?

 

No dig on you, but why don't other people who know what they're doing think so?  What's your theory on why power users feel Windows 8 and 10 are stepping back from desktop support?  Mass delusion?  Haters?  People who could use Windows 7 are incapable of learning anything more?

 

People who are incurable early adopters are holding their collective noses over what's being shoveled in front of them.

 

Newsflash, the desktop is being made harder to use.  Why?  Consistency is down, visual cues are being reduced (tell me you haven't struggled to find a scroll bar thumb), apparently in the name of predatory marketing.  Next version is eliminating window borders, presumably because having a visual target for the resizing controls is a bad thing.

 

With near 40 years high tech experience, I've tuned my Windows 8.1 workstation and now Win 10 test system to be essentially as useful as Win 7 was.  Note that I didn't say better.  There has been no improvement, and let me tell you, it took an unprecedented amount of knowledge and effort to get it to be a productive environment.

 

No, the delusion isn't among the masses here.

 

-Noel

No, I don't think it's mass delusion.  But having been the owner of a business in the past, I can tell you that unsatisfied customers, no matter how few they are compared to the rest, are always the loudest among the reviewers.  And most people who are satisfied with the experience never say anything at all.  Any business can tell you this.

 

The dissatisfaction with 8/8.1, and now 10, were brought on by a few loud tech literates and that scared away the tech illiterates, which make up most computer users.

 

No, I have not had problems finding things in 8 or 8.1.  Everything is still there.  In fact, the lack of the start menu has forced me to use the search function, which has been a godsend.  After having used the search function in the charms bar to find apps since I first installed 8, I've found that the visual tree functionality of the start menu is unnecessary. 

 

And in regard to your 40 years of tech experience, people used a hammer and chisel for centuries, if not millennia.  It doesn't mean a hammer and chisel is more efficient at keeping records than a computer.

 

Like I said, I have seen no indication that the desktop is going away anytime soon.  All MS has done is given us a new UI that actually makes sense for a touch screen device.  If you don't like touchscreen, god bless you.  God bless all of you.  Don't ever get a touchscreen device.  Just don't try to dictate what you do or don't like to the rest of us.

 

Regarding the usefulness of metro apps, you're trying to compare a 2 year old ecosystem to one that's been around since 1990.  That's hardly fair.  But it is on the rise, and people know it.

 

Case in point.  I have a paid (kinda pricey) productivity app published in the windows store.  I just bought a house using the revenue it's generated so far.  So, clearly, most people don't hate metro like you guys think. 

 

And that's the problem with this forum.  Got 1 hater.  Got 2 haters.  Now, there's a hand full of haters patting each others on the back pretending to represent the world at large.

Edited February 16, 2015 by livingenzyme

[TELVM]

 

...  I have a paid (kinda pricey) productivity app published in the windows store.  I just bought a house using the revenue it's generated so far ...

 

Now I get it, by refusing to submit and be assimilated we're bursting the man's housing bubble.

 

Astroturfers gonna astroturf.

[jaclaz]

 

And in regard to your 40 years of tech experience, people used a hammer and chisel for centuries, if not millennia.  It doesn't mean a hammer and chisel is more efficient at keeping records than a computer.

 

Of course NOT!

I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. (actually two ):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061722/quotes?item=qt0282091

clay tablets, they have proved to survive at least 5000 years

 

jaclaz

[JorgeA]

Well, from my reading around so far, it sounds like a lot of people treat windows 8.1 as if it has no desktop at all.

 

Kindly link us to evidence, on this forum, of "a lot of people" who "treat Windows 8.1 as if it has no desktop at all." The concern all along has been that Microsoft intends to phase out the Windows Desktop, not that it has done so already.

 

 --JorgeA

[bphlpt]

@livingenzyme, with the proliferation of touchscreen tablets and knowing your situation where you could put one to good use, would you have complained if MS Had not made changes to allow better use of that hardware with their OS?  Or perhaps even chosen a different OS?  No one would have blamed you if you had. In the same vein, that's why we complained when MS removed features and made it more difficult and annoying for us to use with our desktop PCs.
 

... All MS has done is given us a new UI that actually makes sense for a touch screen device....

Unfortunately, that's not all MS has done. And most of what we complain about is not about what they added, but what they took away - what was already in place, working well, and known and comfortable to the vast majority of computer users, both the old fashioned and the new fangled ones - the existing Desktop and Start Menu features and the way they are accessed.
 
To extend your analogy about the old engineers who wanted to keep using pencils and paper, it's like not only were computers invented, but they also destroyed all pencils and paper and replaced them with thin sheets of bark and pieces of coal.  "The ability to write if you really wanted to is still there, you just need to get with the program and use the new tools!"  At least your old engineers still had the option to continue to use the exact same tools they were most comfortable with.  Yes, we have that same option, and many of us stick with using Windows 7.  But since MS will not support that option indefinitely we will be "forced" to use the new tools.  So we complain hoping that the appropriate features to the new OS will be added restored.  We agree that the number of touchscreen devices and the people that use them are growing, but there are a vast number of existing desktop users that we feel are being alienated.
 
You say:
 

... If you don't like touchscreen, god bless you.  God bless all of you.  Don't ever get a touchscreen device.  Just don't try to dictate what you do or don't like to the rest of us. ...

 
Well, we say something very similar:
 
If you like or need a touchscreen, God bless you.  God bless all of you.  Get the touchscreen device that fits your needs. Just don't try to dictate what you do or don't like to the rest of us.

If they aren't going to produce different versions of the OS for the major different platforms, ie, Desktop, tablet, and phone, then why can't they at least offer different User Interfaces for those platforms?  You say that the desktop is still there, and we agree that it is. But surely you agree that it and the Start Menu, including the way they are accessed, are different than and more awkward to use than what we had grown to love beginning with XP, transitioned through Vista, and ended up with in Windows 7. And are you arguing that MS has not said publicly that they want to remove the desktop at some time in the future? If MS wanted to make their OS more accessible to touchscreen devices, fine and I have no argument with that, IF they also left the desktop and Start Menu the way it was. Would there have been a real problem with giving users the option of which interface the user wanted to use? Why did they need to remove what was already working well for desktop users? Were they trying to "force" users to purchase a new PC, such as a "Surface", in order to use the OS most effectively?
 
Cheers and Regards

Edited February 17, 2015 by bphlpt

[NoelC]

And that's the problem with this forum.  Got 1 hater.  Got 2 haters.  Now, there's a hand full of haters patting each others on the back pretending to represent the world at large.

 

I think it's pretty arrogant of you to call people who aren't satisfied with the status quo and want to improve it "haters".

 

That's traditionally a way people who are overly self-satisfied with themselves justify their positions.

 

-Noel

Edited February 17, 2015 by NoelC