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XP vs. 10 - Some Contrasts

NoelC

By NoelC
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JorgeA

JorgeA

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^^ I'd even be willing to pay a premium price for a computer that came with such a Professional version installed, if it did away with the Metro tiles and the consumer crapps, didn't push the Microsoft Account in my face, and allowed me to select which updates to install.

 

--JorgeA

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jaclaz

jaclaz

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That's exactly what I need, and what I had wanted for a while. Make a Windows OS with all of the consumer garbage removed, with Classic and a sane update model, and allow me to download (usually better IMO) third-party applications for any consumer features I need (VLC and Winamp for media, Firefox for browsing, etc)

 

You do understand that you are describing NT 4 or Windows 2000 before it "evolved" into XP, don't you? :unsure:

 

jaclaz

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NoelC

NoelC

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You do understand that you are describing NT 4 or Windows 2000 before it "evolved" into XP, don't you? :unsure:

 

jaclaz

 

 

Sure.  He just wants it modernized, so it runs without fault doing today's work.

 

It's Win 8.1 with all the fluff disabled and the base desktop functionality restored.  I'm living that dream... Basically a modern (in the true sense, not the marketing sense) desktop with all the stability and capacity of the latest OS kernel.

 

Out of the box the latest systems have needed work to become good.  It's not impossible, you just have to have a plan.

 

-Noel

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vinifera

vinifera

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Metro crap will live through harsh times

when was it ? last week when MS said they will be KILLING so called Edge browser in Metro "version"

and deliver it as Desktop version only ?

 

Metro is good only for Tablets and their crappy phones (yes I had one its disaster)

and as I always repeat myself as broken record, but those with any brain can figure out that

Metro "app" which isn't app at all, is just crippled down version of Desktop app, its shit XHTML+CSS+JS+parts of .net

 

how can anyone expect advanced app from that crap ?

but nooooooooo

its modern and fresh so it must be good and it will be future....

 

yeah...

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loblo

loblo

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Active Desktop in Win98-XP, Gadgets in Vista-7, and now Metro in 8-10. This is all the same thing they push over and over again without much success to make a computer permanently vulnerable to ActiveX instantiation exploits IMHO, call me paranoid if you want...

 

But it's interesting how this "idea" evolves from OS to OS, In 98-XP it lived in the background, then floated in between in Vista-7 and now it is at the foreground covering everything else which makes you wonder what the next incarnation of it will be, direct injection in one's brain perhaps...

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JorgeA

JorgeA

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Active Desktop in Win98-XP, Gadgets in Vista-7, and now Metro in 8-10. This is all the same thing they push over and over again without much success to make a computer permanently vulnerable to ActiveX instantiation exploits IMHO, call me paranoid if you want...

 

But it's interesting how this "idea" evolves from OS to OS, In 98-XP it lived in the background, then floated in between in Vista-7 and now it is at the foreground covering everything else which makes you wonder what the next incarnation of it will be, direct injection in one's brain perhaps...

 

I guess that the next step after putting it in the foreground covering everything, is to make it the ONLY element accessible on the screen. No more Desktop, just all Metro.

 

About direct injection into the brain -- that would give new meaning to the phrase "computer virus." :)

 

--JorgeA

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  • 3 weeks later...
NoelC

NoelC

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Now Win 10 build 10240 is out, and we can see and say what it has become.

 

Out of the box it's not really much different than what I described in the first post of this thread.  Fluff, frivolity, and maybe a hint of "to work" apparently being added back in at the last moment.  Essentially more of what Win 8 was - which can't possibly succeed on its own merit but may well be adopted by hundreds of millions anyway because of Microsoft's aggressive tactics.

 

There are already 3rd party tools - Classic Shell, Aero Glass for Win 8+, and some old ones that still work - that seek to restore usability to the Win 10.  And they actually do.

 

I have embarked on developing a Win 10 configuration with with UAC off and a local account.  Surprisingly, it hangs together decently in this fashion - of course without being able to run any Modern Apps.  I personally don't miss anything there now, but who knows what will be developed in the future.

 

Right now, today, I believe I've changed my "favorite" system to the one I'm running right now - Win 8.1 with the huge number of tweaks and augments I've done.  One of the things that pushed me over the edge to changing my choice (from Win 7 when I wrote the OP in this thread) is the fact that I found a theme online called Aero 7 v2 that now makes the desktop controls look more like they looked in Win 7.  Basically it's the best of all worlds - an up-to-date kernel driving a UI that's been made equally usable.

 

So...

 

When Win 10 settles down a bit, and is proven stable, there will no doubt be 3rd party software to correct many of the stupid changes Microsoft has made (such as borderless windows) and make the Win 10 desktop as usable as its predecessors.  Given that there have been so many folks developing alternate themes for Win 8.1 and earlier, I don't expect that will stop any time soon, so what we can hope / strive for is:

 

  • A 3rd party theme plus Aero Glass for Win 10 that returns usability to the desktop.
  • A polished set of tweaks to make Win 10 into the serious workhorse the kernel can support.
  • To develop the ability to run Modern Apps without UAC being enabled (hey, we can dream).

 

The desired result?  What Microsoft should be delivering for serious/business users:

 

A usable workhorse operating system with up-to-date high tech underpinnings and the fluff sidelined.

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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JorgeA

JorgeA

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  • A 3rd party theme plus Aero Glass for Win 10 that returns usability to the desktop.

 

Some months ago, I installed Rafael Rivera's UxStyle Theme Patcher and, hoping to get a convex Taskbar, tried applying a Vista theme to an earlier build of Windows 10, but other than installing the Vista default wallpaper it made no difference at all in what I saw on the screen. I've left UxStyle in place for later builds but haven't done anything further with it. Still seems to make no difference.

 

Is there a way yet to install and use themes in Win10, or is this something that still awaits resolution?

 

---JorgeA

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NoelC

NoelC

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IMO UxStyle is not the way to go.  Big Muscle (of Aero Glass for Win 8+ fame) has some DLLs (UxThemeSignatureBypass) that facilitate installation of themes.  The reason Big Muscle's software is better is that it patches the system at run-time, vs. altering the system files on disk.

 

The trouble at the moment is finding themes specifically crafted to work with Win 10, as Microsoft has changed the way the theming subsystem operates somewhat.  I am not intimately familiar with all the tools used to re-theme a system, but I imagine some software changes are needed in order to get things just right for the new OS.  After that happens, I imagine DeviantArt will be rich with theme choices in short order.

 

For my current Win 8.1 system I re-theme it with a very good one called "Aero7 v2" which to me has the most important feature:  It returns visuals styles to the common controls - i.e., so you can tell a button or scroll bar thumb apart from the client area.  With this theme installed, I replace the theme atlas resources used to build the chrome around the windows to update the look and feel so that I don't have a wholly "Win 7 Aero" look, but something fresher and cleaner.  To me this is the best of all worlds.  You've probably seen the screen grab I made showing all the attributes of it.

 

http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/Win81/ThemedDesktop.png

 

I'm confident that there will be folks who will develop similar packages for Win 10 in the near future.  If none appear fairly soon I'll take it on myself to put something together.  Win 10 just needs it too badly.

 

In the interim, with Big Muscle's current test software, it's already possible (with some small glitches) to replace the graphics resources that define the chrome around windows - this just doesn't re-skin the common controls.  Even with just that in place Windows 10 becomes 98% friendlier to use.

 

AGOnWin10.png

 

 

The things missing to be able to accomplish all of what I showed in the Win 8.1 overview image in Win 10 are:

 

* A stable version of Aero Glass specifically crafted for the released Win 10 (the current test version causes a few glitches).

 

* A fully integrated theme that operates in Win 10 properly (the Aero7 theme causes a few glitches).

 

* A final version of Classic Shell built for and tested against the released Win 10 system.

 

 

-Noel

Edited by NoelC
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vinifera

vinifera

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mmm just to correct you

win "10" isn't borderless, its just reduced to 1 px, or their intern hack to 0 px

i know XP had same s*** applied but you couldn't go below 2px

 

windows theme engine (not dwm), is simply not as like OSX's

windows frames are actually just classic shelled, painted

and they will never die/dissapear, its just visual trick

 

even on XP you can theme them to be invisible, but they are still there :)

Edited by vinifera
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NoelC

NoelC

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A single pixel is essentially visually nonexistent.  The one and only look and feel available to Win 10 users is essentially borderless.

 

But the borders do not concern me much.  I already have them under control.  It's what's painted on the common controls that most interests me.  Flat buttons, scroll bar thumbs, etc. with no visual style whatsoever just aren't as usable as those that let you know that they're there.

 

Visually speaking, the difference between these is at issue:

 

ContrastInVisualStyles.png

 

-Noel

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NoelC

NoelC

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Yes, and the tools are simply not yet fully up to date with the new Windows release.

 

I'm sure that will be corrected soon.  A re-skinned Win 10 could then be a viable workhorse OS with suitable tweaking.  Near as I can tell, virtually all of Win32 is still in place.  Kind of a shame they did their ham-handed porting of some of the control panel applets to XAML, but at least the important parts work with UAC disabled.  Someone needs to figure out how to thwart the UAC check in ApplicationFrameHost.

 

-Noel

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vinifera

vinifera

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actually many things are ... fubar

 

I don't have to tell how much I hate .net which is a must now

all the Metro BS depends on it... - and again those .appx are retarded anyway

 

DWM has been crippled

 

the win "10" just like "8" WILL have user tracking usage integrated, this was comfirmed

 

the whole usability of an OS is gone down the toilet drain

 

so yeah... welcome to new age lols

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