Continuity Into Win 10 Along With a Bit of Progress - Delicate Balance

[NoelC]

Here we are in the Aero Glass forum because we're not particularly happy with Microsoft's idea of what our desktops ought to look like, right?

 

From what we've seen of the Win 10 UI so far, we know that several fundamental changes are afoot regarding look and feel.  With the exception of my preferred reduced chrome size metrics, this is what the stock Windows 10 theme looks like out of the box:

 

 

Now with Win 10:

 

1.  Borders, except at the tops of windows, are being eliminated (well, really minimized to 1 pixel).  I personally can't stand this - if for no other reason than the places you're expected to use the mouse to control window sizing are now invisible.  That being said, I have always liked thin borders - just not this thin.

 

2.  There are now big drop shadows (perhaps the single biggest thing Microsoft has done to improve the desktop over Win 8).

 

3.  Other than the drop shadows, Win 10 seems to want - so far - to continue to embrace the flat, lifeless appearance to the common controls that Windows 8 started.  Maybe they'll change it, maybe not.  The differences between controls, etc., are being made even more subtle.  There's a reduction of lines of pixels between parts of windows.  I guess you could call it minimalist or oversimplified.  Microsoft might call it "clean".   In some ways it's not unlike being a bit snowblind.  But I digress...

 

4.  With Win 8 Microsoft left behind rounded corners, which I find further help with visually differentiating windows.  I personally like (minimally) rounded corners and won't give them up.

 

I've been using WIndows 8.1 since it came out, and because of its shortcomings I developed a theme atlas that I feel improves what you could call the "lack of character" that characterized the Windows 8 desktop.  It was just too plain, and completely lacking those drop shadows.  After taking the time to understand the mechanisms used to composite the theme atlas resources, I created a custom theme atlas that corrects many of the shortcomings (most specifically, the lack of Windows 8 drop shadows).  For me this theme atlas has stood the test of time:

 

Win 8.1:

 

 

Given my fondness for the above, and the new challenges of Win 10, I've been trying to create a theme atlas that I will feel comfortable with when moving up to Windows 10 for daily use.  In order to feel that comfort I will need to keep several attributes of the look and feel I had with the prior versions of Windows, while I'd also like to embrace a bit of the change. 

 

Some design goals:

 

• Minimal change to make the desktop more pleasant to use. 
• Reduced metrics similar to what I'm already used to.
• Some change to embrace Windows' new design concepts.
• A pleasant, integrated appearance to help visually differentiate window chrome from client areas.
• No need to support multiple colors (in my case) because I like blue.
• Avoidance of full theme replacement to maximize reliability.

 

Here's what I've come up with so far.  Unfortunately, it's not as flexible for other folks to use as the theme atlas I did for Win 8.1 before, since I've had to reconstitute faux borders in the drop shadow resources, and my preferred color is in there.  It works with one particular set of colors and transparencies - those I find most to my liking.  There are a couple of additional problems with this approach - which does not change the theme:  The borders are actually partially transparent, not translucent.  Big Muscle's Aero Glass is only working on the title bars.  At the small border size this isn't a practical problem, but they don't look quite as well-integrated as those that are truly translucent, such as in my Win 8.1 example above.  Also, because of the way Microsoft processes the drop shadow border resources the edges aren't as pixel-sharp looking as they ought to be.  But I find them acceptable.

 

 

 

What do you think?

 

-Noel

Edited December 11, 2014 by NoelC

[My1]

I am honest, I would embace the desgin changes in 8 and 10 VEERX tightly, in effect killing them...

[NoelC]

I dunno, I kind of like the bigger drop shadows.

 

Microsoft has a habit of rolling out visual changes gradually, as though to "wean" users from what they had before, and making the last jump at release time.  We can't know where they're going yet.  I just hope they don't screw things up so badly that we can't compensate for them.

 

-Noel

[vinifera]

you don't need bigger shadows for good effect

just look vista/win7 effect on INACTIVE window

 

shadow is small but mild

I've done this for my active win's too so it looks very nice not having that ugly black strong thick shadow

 

as for win10, I find nothing interesting there ... absolutely nothing, to me its just win 8.2

it will have tweaked UI a bit and thats all there is...

[NoelC]

Certainly a lot of folks share your sentiment.  I know a majority are still sitting on Win 7 and playing "wait and see".

 

I do find value in adopting current tech when it's mature - as Windows 8.1 now is.  Windows 8 became mature about a year ago and was worth using (I did a big return on investment analysis before adopting it).  I'm proud to say I've not run a single Metro App on Win 8.1.  Never needed one.

 

Since putting 8.1 on my workstation I am probably not really a whole lot MORE productive than I was with Win 7, but I'm certainly not less, and I'm current.  It's important for my software development to embrace current systems.  Win 7 was perfectly stable, so is Win 8.1, and I imagine Win 10 will be too, at least after the initial kinks are ironed-out.  I may wait until Service Pack 1 to replace my desktop system, after doing a deep analysis as I have for all past version releases.

 

But this thread is about using Windows 10's desktop, because no matter what Microsoft wants us to believe, the desktop is far from dead.  If they know what's good for them they'll return a lot of functionality they deleted (I was going to write "prematurely deleted", but I've seen no evidence that there's anything better than the desktop on the horizon).

 

So...  EVEN IF it's just Windows 8.2 by another name, do you see yourself ultimately adopting it, knowing that there will be good 3rd party augments such as Big Muscle's Aero Glass?

 

-Noel

 

 

P.S., Regarding the value of "keeping current"...  It's almost intangible but, for example I have heard the latest Windows Updates broke things badly for users of Windows 7, while Windows 8 users were unscathed.

[vinifera]

 

So... EVEN IF it's just Windows 8.2 by another name, do you see yourself ultimately adopting it, knowing that there will be good 3rd party augments such as Big Muscle's Aero Glass?

 

nope

as win7 gives me all I need, if XP worked fine on my HW, which it didn't for some reason, I'd probably stay on it...

 

as for whole win8 and "10", the most thing I dislike is again, IE

with this metro thingy, again MS has excuse to force IE deep into the OS core again

now while they probably dealt with security measures, but honestly again if you disable UAC

youre on square one with security down... and while metro apps (why the heck are those called apps again?)

are disabled without UAC "on", you still have all that crap with integrated bing, skype and those shitty "live" accounts

 

its just like they are making this OS into online OS more and more

yes its good for tablets and phones ... but Workstations (desktops) NO ! - which are BTW FAR FROM BEING GONE,

as I don't see on what else will be App's and games made anyway ... certainly not on shitty tablets ... LOL

[bphlpt]

P.S., Regarding the value of "keeping current"...  It's almost intangible but, for example I have heard the latest Windows Updates broke things badly for users of Windows 7, while Windows 8 users were unscathed.

And how was that situation very different from the recent Win Update/Avast interaction that even effected you, while it had no effect on the Win7 users?

 

As to the above Win7 issue, my approach of not applying the monthly updates until at least a week after they are released usually keeps me out of trouble.  While those on the front lines can get the glory if things work well, they are also the first to die if things go wrong.  Early adopters are often the most at risk for problems.

 

I know you place a very high value on staying "current", but you have also spent a great amount of time massaging your current system to behave almost as well as your old Win7 system behaved.  Imagine what you could have accomplished if you had used that time on something "more productive".  Seriously, I can see the reason for staying "current", as long as you also maintain older systems and/or VMs for testing purposes, if you are producing software to be sold for use on those current systems.  Otherwise, no, I see no value for the user in switching to the latest if what you are currently using meets your needs, whether your current system is Win7, XP or even older.  Just my opinion.

 

Cheers and Regards

[jaclaz]

As to the above Win7 issue, my approach of not applying the monthly updates until at least a week after they are released usually keeps me out of trouble.  While those on the front lines can get the glory if things work well, they are also the first to die if things go wrong.  Early adopters are often the most at risk for problems.

... on the other hand, you might loose most of the fun in finding the issues (if any) and solve them, and additionally other people may feel authorised to call you a coward

 

Seriously, I can see the reason for staying "current", as long as you also maintain older systems and/or VMs for testing purposes, if you are producing software to be sold for use on those current systems.

But this is another thing.

One thing is having "latest" OS (for whatever reasons, beauty is always in the eye of the beholder) and another one is to risk its stability or integrity (particularly if it is a "production system") because the actual manufacturer of the OS (or their quality control or their beta testing division or whomever) suck (and suck big while we are at it) in what should be their FIRST duty (make sure that NO machine is brought to its kneels because of a stupid update) by allowing "silent" updates or by applying manually them on a non-test machine.

This time it happened to Windows 7 users, as you recalled a few days ago it happened to NoelC with the conflict with Avast on his Windows 8.1 (let's remember how this is currently the "flagship", whilst the 10 is the "experimental future quantum leap" ), possibly next victim will be a 10 user, you cannot say.

The key point is however always the same, the updates should be tested, and tested thoroughfully, before being made available, be it on Windows Update or for manual download, everyone can do mistakes but lately the good MS guys - for one reason or the other - effectively changed the perception of the thingy from "oh good, I'm gonna have the system updated with some new things and increased security!" to "**** it, it is again patch tuesday, will my system survive it?"

jaclaz

Edited December 12, 2014 by jaclaz

[NoelC]

It's not really different.  Probably there have been more times when Win 8 has been screwed up by updates than Win 7 to be honest.  But that won't keep; the balance will shift as time goes on.

 

You could have a good older host system setup - say based on Win 7 - and run VMs for all the target systems you need - including those NEWER than the host system.  That's actually what I did before adopting Win 8.1 while WIn 8 was current.  It's a little more complicated, but not anything that can't be worked out.  But it gets more complicated as time goes on and ultimately becomes impractical.  Just think about extremes - few folks would think running NT4 right now is a good idea, for example.  I wouldn't even consider XP.

 

When I did the upgrade to Win 8.1 I did a detailed risk/benefit analysis based on what I do and need, and it showed that in general I'd save more time than I'd waste - and while there's always some risk of the unknown, it's turned out to be true:  After getting it set up right I've spend little ongoing time/effort on Windows 8.1.  I've been quite productive this year, actually.  I did my own testing, and even some days-long "immersive" trial runs using a Windows 8.1 VM (VMware is great), so I knew what I was getting into.  When I had everything working at an equal level to what I had in Win 7, I knew it was time to switch.  A year has gone by and I'm glad I did.  In the spirit of "lemons to lemonade", I packaged my knowledge in a book that also makes me a bit of money.  There will be a Win 10 edition as well.

 

Regarding other intangible reasons to stay current...

 

It's hard to say right now what system the driver makers put more effort into supporting.  Win 7, because it has more users, or Win 8.x because it's the latest?  I think I sense more of the latter - e,g., for display drivers - but certainly not MUCH more either way.  Of course, this ties in with a strategy of upgrading to newer hardware.  And again, it's going to go more and more to the latter.

 

Performance has been a mixed bag.  You'd think it should be better, given all the hype, but mostly it's (a little) worse in Win 8.1, though a few things are a little better.  You would think a newer system would be able to do things like take advantage of newer instructions (e.g., SSE2), but in a practical sense Microsoft seems to have either accidentally screwed up or intentionally hobbled a number of things - Explorer file operations for example.  Delete ONE file and see a progress bar?  On a modern system running from SSD?  Their Marketing people still of course claim everything's faster and somehow get away with it.

 

Stability...  Well, what can I say.  Windows 7 ran continuously for weeks between install-initiated reboots, and so does Windows 8.  Zero glitches is now the expected norm for a well-managed system.  I'm glad it has finally come to this.

 

Improvements in utility have simply been stalled, because of this "side trip" Microsoft has made with their Apps.  Someone forgot to inform the team that it actually has to be good for people to actually adopt it.  So here we sit with the desktop, new versions of maybe a few desktop applications by development teams who keep plugging away while Microsoft figures things out, and despite Microsoft's attempts to make us dislike it, the desktop is really the only place to be.  My decision to use Win 8.1 would be different if it hadn't been for a few good 3rd party applications that fill in the holes (Classic Shell, Aero Glass, etc.).

 

And so we plod forward, treating Windows Updates as though they're more suspect than ever, and trying to find the good amongst the dark side...

 

-Noel

[jaclaz]

Yep , but in a nutshell you are again saying that Windows 8.1:

1. is not noticeably faster than Windows 7 on a "same" machine, possibly it is even slightly slower.
2. It is now "as stable as" Windows 7, after a long initial period of somewhat "less stable" status
3. It is unbearable unless heavily tweaked and with a number of third party applications that mitigate the stupidity and ugliness of it's interface

Hardly "intangible reasons to stay current" , as a matter of fact they sound a lot like "very tangible reasons to avoid upgrading to it from Windows 7"  unless really needed for some other reason or (and these are the good news IMHO ) "very tangible reasons" why you don't (anymore)  really *need* to downgrade to Windows 7 on a new machine that came with Windows 8/8.1 pre-installed: the stupid OS can be tamed, through it will need applying a number of tweaks and installing a bunch of third party tools, and there are also good signs that even the new 10 thingy can as well be made into a working system (with even more work/tweaks), not that bad, if you look at the half full glass :

 

jaclaz

[NoelC]

Spin it any way you want.  That's fine. 

 

Frankly I'm glad I don't have quite such a negative outlook on everything as you do.  You should strive for balance.  Everything requires some risk.  Fear of risk is healthy, but not when it's the only guiding principle.

 

Someone with a helluva lot of experience has said here that he didn't find Windows 8 worth upgrading to, but 8.1 barely so, then confirmed the decision was the right one based on experience.  Take that for what it's worth.  Your mileage may vary.  Needs certainly do.

 

I plan to evaluate Win 10 and determine if it's suitable for adoption to be the system upon which I base everyday usage.  If I find it to be worthwhile, I will.  Otherwise I won't.  Simple as that.  I can run it any time I want in a VM.

 

But I'm not going to ignore it.  That's a sure path to ignorance.

 

-Noel

[jaclaz]

But nothing at all "negative" in my views, as said I am very happy  that you contributed to prove that Windows 8.1 (and hopefully the next 10 thingy also) is actually usable once some (many) tweaks are applied to it and a number of third party tools are installed and properly configured.

Till few months ago if someone had asked me about buying a new computer I would have suggested him/her to make sure to get a system which allowed downgrade to Windows 7, should the stupid Windows 8/8.1 be not bearable, nowadays I am convinced that this is not anymore *needed* thanks to the information, tools and opinions (including your nice contributions) that were made available here on the board :.

 

Still, unless I missed something, the result of all these efforts are/were that Windows 8.1 is "as" Windows 7, "as fast as", "as reliable as", "running same tools as", "having the same look/feel as", etc., this is not a negative view, only the plain, flat statement of fact that there is nothing (or very little) that is "much better than" or "years ahead" or the like.

jaclaz
 

[dhjohns]

One thing that does not work with Windows 8.1 is Civil 3D 2013.  A good friend of mine has a surveying company.  He needs to run C3D 2013 because C3D 2015 projects are NOT compatible with the earlier versions.  Most of the surveyors are still using Windows 7 right now, though this will change eventually.  The thing is he just had to return three Dell laptops, because Dell did not  provide the Windows 7 drivers for them, and he couldn't downgrade.

[NoelC]

the result of all these efforts are/were that Windows 8.1 is "as" Windows 7, "as fast as", "as reliable as", "running same tools as", "having the same look/feel as", etc., this is not a negative view, only the plain, flat statement of fact that there is nothing (or very little) that is "much better than" or "years ahead" or the like.

 

Yes, overtly that seems a fair statement.  But there are subtleties that result in my saying "it's better to keep current for intangible reasons", especially once it's tweaked and trained to your liking.

 

People often look for neon signs, concert sound, and being beaten over the head, when there are really subtle whispers on the gentle breeze that can speak volumes.  More often such folks are my fellow Americans. 

 

Dhjohns, I'll look into that program if I get a few minutes to play.  I wonder whether there is some taming that could have been done to make Civil 3D 2013 run on Windows 8.1.  I've been able to make an awful lot of things work that some folks say are incompatible.  For example, I have every version of Photoshop running on Win 8.1 back to Photoshop 6.0 (the one from the last millennium).

 

-Noel