"New" XP user seeking some answers regarding CMD.EXE, WordPad,

[Click Beetle DX]

Hello, all.

My main computer used to be a dual boot setup for 98SE and XP. For the sake of time however I recently decided to nuke 98SE and just stick with XP (98SE will now only be used on my laptop). While I've been doing everything possible to make myself comfortable with XP, I admit to having several lingering problems:

1). I am going through severe DOS withdrawal because XP's CMD.EXE stinks! Its compatibility with many DOS applications and tools is awful, making me wince every time I drop to the command prompt (which is OFTEN) to get some real work done. Are there any decent replacements for CMD.EXE that have better compatibility with DOS applications? I'm not worried about games and sound; I have DOSBox for that. I just don't want to have to load up DOSBox or a virtual machine every time I want to get some real work done. (Yes, that's right -- I have a huge dependency on DOS and I don't aim to lose it any time soon!)

2). I've long used WordPad to edit and save small documents in the Word Document (DOC) format, but XP's implementation of WordPad chokes on opening my DOC files saved in 98SE. I have Microsoft Word and OpenOffice installed, but surely I shouldn't have to load these larger programs up every time I wish to view / edit / save one of my "old" DOC files. Any suggestions?

That's all I can think of at the moment. Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Kelsenellenelvian]

Sorry to tell you but DOS really kinda well DIED in XP. There is barely any dos-style functionality left.

This site tells you pretty much ALL that is left:

http://ss64.com/nt/

Wordpad replacement:

http://www.jarte.com/

Edited January 9, 2012 by Kelsenellenelvian

[jaclaz]

Sorry to tell you but DOS really kinda well DIED in XP. There is barely any dos-style functionality left.

As often happens, I beg to differ.

Command line is very functional in any NT/2K/XP OS, and it's command line interpreter CMD.EXE actually has a rather extended command set/functionalities.

Besides the referenced SS64 site, Rob van der Woude's one is an excellent source:

http://www.robvanderwoude.com/

The issues are most probably not at all related to cmd.exe, but rather to the HAL layer (or if you prefer the NTVDM ) combined with the common use in "real DOS" days of undocumented functions/direct access to hardware and what not).

If the OP, instead of a general ranting would provide an EXACT, DETAILed list of the issues, maybe someone could try and help him in mitigating them.

jaclaz

[ChiefZeke]

JP Software's Take Command is available in 32-bit and 64-bit versions: http://jpsoft.com/

It is a program from the same folks that created 4DOS.

[Click Beetle DX]

Wordpad replacement:

http://www.jarte.com/

No good. This program has the exact same trouble when opening DOC files saved with the Windows 98 version of WordPad as XP's WordPad does.

I copied over the Windows 98 version of WordPad to my XP machine, hoping it would solve the problem. However when I try to run it, XP "out thinks" me and kicks over to the XP version of WordPad instead. I then copied the 98 version directly over the XP version and write protected it, but XP simply detected this and replaced it with the XP executable. Their id***-proofing of the OS is really starting to irritate me, because it keeps people who know what they're doing from making certain customizations.

If the OP, instead of a general ranting would provide an EXACT, DETAILed list of the issues, maybe someone could try and help him in mitigating them.

I'm not sure that will make much of a difference. I've installed and tried several "extensions" to the CMD.EXE, but they simply add additional commands to the Command Prompt instead of overhauling its core. I think that's what would be necessary in order for me to have a suitable work environment.

I have a lot of DOS applications (tools, compilers, converters, viewers -- you name it) that I use on a daily / weekly basis. Many of them do not have Windows equivalents. While these programs ALL run 100% under Windows 98, many of them have issues or simply fail to execute altogether via XP's Command Prompt. Most common issues include the programs displaying at an odd resolution (50% of the full screen Command Prompt), not handling long file names correctly, or crashing during execution.

I realize my original post came off as a bit of a rant (as does this one, I suppose), but DOS is integral to my day-to-day computer use. I am feeling quite lost, right now.

[Glenn9999]

If the OP, instead of a general ranting would provide an EXACT, DETAILed list of the issues, maybe someone could try and help him in mitigating them.

This is really the thing. You need to do this. XP is truly a different OS than 98, so you're going to have transition issues. And since XP is a completely different OS, it's not going to work the same as 98. The biggest difference is that due to the lack of existence of DOS (like I said, COMPLETELY different), the rules for applications change. Most of us have been through them, so it would be good if you were to do this.

I have a lot of DOS applications (tools, compilers, converters, viewers -- you name it) that I use on a daily / weekly basis. Many of them do not have Windows equivalents. While these programs ALL run 100% under Windows 98, many of them have issues or simply fail to execute altogether via XP's Command Prompt. Most common issues include the programs displaying at an odd resolution (50% of the full screen Command Prompt), not handling long file names correctly, or crashing during execution.

XP (really NT) has an emulation layer which handles the DOS functionality. You won't be able to replace that. You can always try loading command.com to see if the results are different in running things. But there are a number of rules in XP/NT as a true multi-tasking/multi-processing OS (98 isn't since it's based on DOS) which make several DOS programs non-starters and others require some work. So you need to find replacements for some things and emulation (DOSBox or a VM) for some others if there aren't genuine equivalents (and to be honest there's been so much time since DOS was prevalent that there's options for most everything now).

As far as shell functionality goes, it's always worth getting Powershell and getting it loaded, since there is much more functionality than DOS even had in regards to what you can do with the shell in terms of scripting and other functionality.

I realize my original post came off as a bit of a rant (as does this one, I suppose), but DOS is integral to my day-to-day computer use. I am feeling quite lost, right now.

This is common for any OS transition. It will take some time to figure out how the OS works to do your routine things. I felt this way going from ME to XP (same issues as you really), felt that way in running OS/2 for the 3 years I ran it, and feel that way and would feel that way going to Linux. Things just work differently, so you'll have to learn how those things work to complete the transition. We're willing to help you out on those, but you need to be specific about what you are trying to run and what is going on.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Glenn9999

[jaclaz]

Quick instructions:

1. create a "dummy" (i.e. NOT containing ANY personal/meaningful data) .doc with wordpad under 9x.
   
2. verify XP worpad "chokes" on it
   
3. compress the file to a .zip archive and attach it to your next post or upload somewhere and provide a link to it
   

Someone may be able to replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution (or at least a workaround).

Call me hairy reasoner as you like , but since a typical Win98 system originally shipped (LATEST ones, year 1999 or 2000) with 64 Mb of RAM and a P-III at 700 Mhz or 1GHz processor or the like, a Windows 98 in a VM machine (even Qemu) will be on average modern hardware at least as fast as the original system you were used to, so, if you don't want to dual boot (to gain speed at the expense of "fixing" the 98 install to new hardware) a VM is a good enough solution, as I see it.

On the other hand, if you like to play the game , you need to approach each single issue at a time, one by one, and know that a solution may exist or may not.

jaclaz

P.S. Small (needed IMHO) correction:

Their id***-proofing of the OS is really starting to irritate me, because it keeps people who know what they're doing from making certain customizations.

Just for the record "people who know what they're doing" usually know also how to disable SFC/WFP.

Edited January 11, 2012 by jaclaz

[Glenn9999]

And as a thought as I read this again, the OP's text regarding Wordpad is a perfect example. XP's implementation of WordPad chokes on opening my DOC files saved in 98SE. really doesn't mean a thing and doesn't tell us anything. What kind of error messages are associated, what happens, etc? This is what myself and others have been asking about in this thread. There are specific problems, and depending on what those are there might be specific solutions. This might be the perfect answer to your WordPad issues, but we don't know so we're not guessing or suggesting replacements.

[dencorso]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the DOS boxes. XP WordPad and later versions cannot open Word 2.0 .doc files. That's by design, and has no solution.

But it does have a workaround. Open them in Word and save as a Word 97 or latter .doc, and WordPad will open them all right. And you can install the Word 97 compatibility pack (or whatever it was called) to Word 2.0, so that Word 2.0 will still be able to open those .docs, besides gaining the ability to save in Word 97 .doc format directly. I think the converters you need are this and this... but I've installed them so long ago that I might as well be wrong, and some other files might be needed, too, along with those I just gave you links to. As for CMD, I agree with jaclaz: it's more able than that DOS's own COMMAND.COM, not less.

[Click Beetle DX]

First of all (since I didn't mention it already), I am running XP SP3 on my machine, with all of the official updates from Microsoft installed.

I believe that in regard to my issues with DOS applications under XP, I will need to bite the bullet and launch a copy of DOSBox whenever necessary (i.e. 500 times a day), or better yet, just keep it open all the time. Most of the unique tools I rely on simply don't function under XP's CMD.EXE and as has been explained to me here, there's no "replacing" that DOS emulation core. Just got to work around it, I suppose. OK.

This is common for any OS transition. It will take some time to figure out how the OS works to do your routine things.

You're right. It's just been so long since I've pushed myself to make such a transition. The only reason I decided to adopt Win98 in the first place, so many years ago, was because of its excellent compatibility with DOS applications / drivers / et cetera. I'm much older now, and have lost a great deal of the patience I used to have for such things. It's not that the learning curve is difficult, it's just very annoying. I feel as though I've been dumped into an OS which is trying its best to force me into a tiny corner and restrict my movement as much as possible. Obviously you folks are familiar with this feeling and have dealt with it, so I appreciate your assistance in regard to my own struggle.

Quick instructions:

1. create a "dummy" (i.e. NOT containing ANY personal/meaningful data) .doc with wordpad under 9x.
   
2. verify XP worpad "chokes" on it
   
3. compress the file to a .zip archive and attach it to your next post or upload somewhere and provide a link to it
   

Someone may be able to replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution (or at least a workaround).

A fine idea. I've attached a copy of a sample DOC file to this message, which I saved under Wordpad for Win98. While it does open in Wordpad for XP, the formatting is all gummed up, making it quite the pain in the neck to deal with. While I have both OpenOffice and Microsoft Word installed, I prefer a quick, simple and fast-loading text editor for my on-the-fly document processing. Wordpad has always served me well for this, until now.

If no one can recommend a way to open, use and save these "old" Win98 Word documents of mine using XP's Wordpad, I would be open to using a Wordpad "replacement," so long as it is compact and not overloaded with features. I don't suppose anyone has "hacked" XP's Wordpad to serve this purpose, or located / created a suitable upgrade / update patch to do it?

Just for the record "people who know what they're doing" usually know also how to disable SFC/WFP.

See? I'm learning already. Thanks for the tip. I successfully disabled SFC/WFP using instructions I found here at the forum. I've finally deleted the screen savers! Yeah!

However even after disabling SFC/WFP, when I try to run the Wordpad executable copied over from my laptop running Win98, XP still somehow launches the XP version of Wordpad instead. This, after I deleted every copy of "wordpad.exe" that was placed on my HDD by XP.

Can someone explain this one to me? It's reasons like these, where I tell the OS to do something and it does whatever it wants to instead, that I resisted "switching" to XP for so many years. But I'm going to try and be more patient now, because I've made the decision and there's no turning back. Time to learn and adapt. *sigh*

FISH.ZIP

[Glenn9999]

I believe that in regard to my issues with DOS applications under XP, I will need to bite the bullet and launch a copy of DOSBox whenever necessary (i.e. 500 times a day), or better yet, just keep it open all the time. Most of the unique tools I rely on simply don't function under XP's CMD.EXE and as has been explained to me here, there's no "replacing" that DOS emulation core. Just got to work around it, I suppose. OK.

Like was said, you can set up a VM running whatever DOS you like (you can put whatever regular HD directories you like into the VM as shared drives, too, so it's pretty transparent in the end there) or use DosBOX. One of the nice things about DOSBox is that you can set up a shortcut on a DOS interactive program and make it pretty transparent in the end. I do that with the two or three DOS games I like to play that won't work well in XP (I have a Windows one that doesn't work well in XP but works well in ME but that's another issue altogether).

http://www.dosbox.com/wiki/DOSBoxShortcuts

Edited January 12, 2012 by Glenn9999

[vipejc]

Hello, all.

My main computer used to be a dual boot setup for 98SE and XP. For the sake of time however I recently decided to nuke 98SE and just stick with XP (98SE will now only be used on my laptop). While I've been doing everything possible to make myself comfortable with XP, I admit to having several lingering problems:

1). I am going through severe DOS withdrawal because XP's CMD.EXE stinks! Its compatibility with many DOS applications and tools is awful, making me wince every time I drop to the command prompt (which is OFTEN) to get some real work done. Are there any decent replacements for CMD.EXE that have better compatibility with DOS applications? I'm not worried about games and sound; I have DOSBox for that. I just don't want to have to load up DOSBox or a virtual machine every time I want to get some real work done. (Yes, that's right -- I have a huge dependency on DOS and I don't aim to lose it any time soon!)

2). I've long used WordPad to edit and save small documents in the Word Document (DOC) format, but XP's implementation of WordPad chokes on opening my DOC files saved in 98SE. I have Microsoft Word and OpenOffice installed, but surely I shouldn't have to load these larger programs up every time I wish to view / edit / save one of my "old" DOC files. Any suggestions?

That's all I can think of at the moment. Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.

XP is not the right Windows OS for you; return to 98SE or install ME. Windows XP runs NT architecture, which is not MS-DOS motivated. Yes, XP has a slightly-improved command processor and minimal DOS support, but DOS is a part of XP for only backward compatibility. You can play select MS-DOS and legacy Windows games in XP, but not all, because MS-DOS games require direct hardware and port access that XP drivers don't support. MS-DOS harks back to the days of the monochrome screen and floppy. Way before my time, and the only reason I know it is because it's a part of XP, and to fully understand it, like I must, you need to know your roots for Windows to make the most sense. Try converting your 98SE-created documents from the .DOC file extension to .rtf and then opeing them in XP's WordPad. I disagree. I'm one of the most productive people and I do 99.8% of my work in GUI. You really should start forgetting DOS and use the GUI every task you can. It's simpler, better looking, and the future. DOS was all they had in the 1970s, so they had to suffer it. But today, DOS is just a way of saying I'm old and need to learn what a DIMM is.

[Click Beetle DX]

XP is not the right Windows OS for you; return to 98SE or install ME.

Thanks for your input, but this isn't the kind of answer I'm looking for. I may be a very stubborn man, but I have (finally) come to the point where I wish to move forward and adapt. It will be difficult, painful and time-consuming, but it's the road I've chosen.

[vipejc]

XP is not the right Windows OS for you; return to 98SE or install ME.

Thanks for your input, but this isn't the kind of answer I'm looking for. I may be a very stubborn man, but I have (finally) come to the point where I wish to move forward and adapt. It will be difficult, painful and time-consuming, but it's the road I've chosen.

What are your needs? Basic 2D word processing and DOS games? Then there's no need to use XP or go through growing pains.

[Click Beetle DX]

What are your needs? Basic 2D word processing and DOS games? Then there's no need to use XP or go through growing pains.

Pardon, but I don't wish to get into a big explanation here as I fear it will bury my questions under a pile of posts which are unrelated to them. However to briefly summarize:

Even with all of the official and unofficial updates, patches, enhancements and custom hacks I've had the luxury of adding to 98SE, I find XP to be more stable and reliable, especially where software is concerned. While I need regular access to custom DOS applications, I also need the same access to newer software that 98 can't execute (even with KernelEx installed). While I used to boot into XP only once or twice a month, I now find it necessary to do so much more frequently. I do not wish to dual boot anymore because it is not time effective. And, I no longer find it "OK" to remain stuck in my ways simply because I find it more comfortable. I am losing productivity time in doing so, and this is not acceptable. The only way I will ever push myself to learn and adapt to XP is if I force myself to do so. That is what I aim to do now; there's no looking back.

Now with that said, if we could please stick to the original point of this thread it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.