Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble

MSFN is made available via donations, subscriptions and advertising revenue. The use of ad-blocking software hurts the site. Please disable ad-blocking software or set an exception for MSFN. Alternatively, register and become a site sponsor/subscriber and ads will be disabled automatically. 

Multibooter

UDF-formatted hard disk drives under Windows 98

Recommended Posts

When I enter sudo fdisk -l Ubuntu displays /dev/sdb and /dev/sdb1, both with System HPFS/NTFS and 2000.4GB. A UDF drive with a partition?

What exactly does 'fdisk -l' show? Your output is impossible. 'fdisk -l' only shows the contents of a partition table, including the filesystem ID, which happens to be HPFS/NTFS for your sdb1. But fdisk cannot show a filesystem ID for sdb, because a disk cannot have this kind of metadata.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi jaclaz, hi Mijzelf,

I first have to apologize that I didn't post an update to my posting #29 earlier, I had found the solution, but it was getting too late at night for another posting.

... the lights of the external 2TB HDD to be formatted did not flash, the Ubuntu computer was apparently accessing the internal disk a lot, for maybe 5 minutes, when the [internal] disk access light stopped flashing I shut down and rebooted, Ubuntu came up Ok.

At that time, when I saw that the lights of the docking station containing the 2TB HDD to be formatted were not blinking, I assumed incorrectly that nothing was happening. Actually the Ubuntu computer was working very hard doing some preparatory steps, and I had apparently shut down the Ubuntu computer in the middle of formatting.

In a subsequent attempt last night I did format the 2TB HDD successfully to UDF 1.02 under Ubuntu. The old 600MHz laptop on which I have Ubuntu took maybe 20 minutes to do the preparatory work, and then the lights of the docking station containing the 2TB HDD started to blink intermittently. One shouldn't make initial experiments with a 2TB HDD, visible results just take too long.

In this second successful attempt last night I had used

sudo mkudffs --media-type=hd --blocksize=512 --udfrev=0x0102 /dev/sdb

containing 2 different parameters:

- /dev/sdb instead of sdb1

- I had added the parameter --udfrev=0x0102 to specify UDF 1.02, so that the UDF-formatted HDD could be read by Win98SE and WinXP without additional software

I will eventually check whether by specifying sdb the whole drive can be formatted to UDF, while by specifying a pre-existing partition that specific partition can be formatted to UDF.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ubuntu <== to/from ==> WinXP/Win98SE: Incompatible flavors of UDF?

I just :

- connected the docking station with the HDD, formatted by Ubuntu to UDF 1.02, to another computer with WinXP (SAI file system driver) and looked at the content of the UDF-formatted HDD, then:

- re-connected the LinuxUDF-formatted HDD to the Ubuntu computer and added under Ubuntu a file to the UDF formatted HDD; then:

- re-connected the LinuxUDF-formatted HDD to the computer with WinXP (SAI file system driver):

SURPRISE: the red light of the docking station with the LinuxUDF HDD stayed on for about 15 minutes, then WinXP displayed in My Computer a drive letter for the LinuxUDF HDD, but no file system; then:

somewhere in subsequent experimentation WinXP crashed, then:

- I re-connected the LinuxUDF HDD to the Ubuntu computer, which had no problem reading the LinuxUDF HDD; then:

- I re-connected the LinuxUDF HDD to the computer with WinXP, and selected to boot into the WinXP opsys selection which contained the MS file system driver, i.e. not into the WinXP opsys where WriteUDF/SAI file system driver was installed.

BUT: My Computer in normal WinXP could not assign a drive letter to the LinuxUDF drive, and WinXP kept on trying to read the LinuxUDF HDD for 30 minutes, until I shut down.

In other words: Writing to the LinuxUDF HDD may have made the 2TB HDD somehow unreadable to WinXP.

BTW, the 2TB HDD, after being formatted by Ubuntu to UDF 1.02, had the default name "LinuxUDF" and contained a folder "Lost+Found". WinXP (the opsys selection with the SAI file system driver, i.e. with free space displayed under WinXP) displayed that about 500MB of the 2TB were used for something, but the "Lost+Found" folder was empty. If I remember right, the 2TB HDD formatted to UDF 1.02 by WriteUDF! under WinXP (SAI file system driver) did not have 500MB used for something. So Ubuntu and WriteUDF seem to create something different when a HDD is formatted to UDF 1.02.

I will make some preliminary tests whether there are compatibility issues when the 2TB HDD, formatted to UDF 1.02 (OSTA standard) by WriteUDF! under WinXP, is written to by Ubuntu and WinXP (SAI file system driver), and re-connected repeatedly from the Ubuntu computer to the WinXP/Win98SE computer.

UPDATE: I was just able to access the 2TB LinuxUDF HDD under Win98SE, no problem whatsoever. BUT: The file I had added under Ubuntu to the 2TB LinuxUDF HDD was NOT there, i.e. somehow Ubuntu had not completely/correctly added the file, Win98 didn't see it and to WinXP the LinuxUDF HDD somehow appeared corrupted. I had selected "Safely Remove Drive" from the context menu, after writing the file to the UDF HDD and before actually unplugging the 2TB HDD from the Ubuntu computer.

BIG SURPRISE: after powering off (disconnecting power plug for 1minute) the Ubuntu computer and restarting it, then connecting the docking station with the LinuxUDF HDD: Ubuntu DID display the added file, which was NOT displayed by Win98SE, and which had caused issues under WinXP.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When I enter sudo fdisk -l Ubuntu displays /dev/sdb and /dev/sdb1, both with System HPFS/NTFS and 2000.4GB. A UDF drive with a partition?

What exactly does 'fdisk -l' show? Your output is impossible. 'fdisk -l' only shows the contents of a partition table, including the filesystem ID, which happens to be HPFS/NTFS for your sdb1. But fdisk cannot show a filesystem ID for sdb, because a disk cannot have this kind of metadata.

You're right. I am attaching a screen shot. The file of this screen shot is actually the added file on the LinuxUDF HDD, which is visible under Ubuntu, invisible under Win98SE and which causes problems for WinXP.

post-183045-0-18367700-1343157232_thumb.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.. http://serverfault.com/questions/55089/with-what-tool-should-i-format-a-hard-drive-as-udf ... We need someone with Vista :ph34r: or later to test the behaviour described on that thread. :yes:
Hi jaclaz,

Over 3 years ago I also had Vista on my desktop

but I removed it, to avoid problems. The only feature of Vista which has interested me was the Live File System (= MS UDF). But 3 years ago I had also put the UDF subject on ice (my initial posting of this topic here was 3 years ago) because I couldn't get FixUDF! to work on a UDF-formatted HDD, and a file system without a repair/diagnostic utility is a no-no for me.

Eventually I plan to re-install Vista, to test MS-UDF for this topic here, provided I can get FixUDF! to work on a UDF-formatted HDD or find another utility, e.g. under Linux, which can repair a damaged UDF on HDDs

I was able to get FixUDF! to work on the following UDF-formatted drives/media up to now:

- internal CD/DVD burners

- internal zip drive

- parallel port zip drive

- SCSI jaz drive

These drives for are media which usually is not partitioned. I have experimented with many devices, including USB, eSATA and PCMCIA connections, but up to now I was only able to get the above 4 interface/media/drive combinations to work with FixUDF!. Perhaps a UDF-formatted LS-120 diskette with a parallel interface works with FixUDF!, but I could find anything in my notes about it. FixUDF! according to the documentation cannot repair files >4GB, or UDF revisions higher than 2.01. FixUDF! v2.0.0 is of 12-Dec-2001, old stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Recipe for data corruption and data loss

I have tried to re-format the 2TB LinuxUDF HDD with PartitionMagic 8.0 under Win98. PartitionMagic displayed the LinuxUDF HDD as Bad, so I changed to Acronis Disk Director v10.2.089. I didn't select "Clear" (=overwrite stuff at the beginning of the disk) under Acronis, because this would also clear some manufacturer info on this new drive, and just selected to delete the displayed "HPFS/NTFS" partition. After rebooting I went back into Partition Magic under Win98 and created 4 small logical FAT32 partitions, each about 20GB, to avoid delays during my testing.

I then connected the 2TB HDD (4 logical FAT32 partitions) to the Ubuntu computer and reformatted the 2nd FAT32 partition to UDF 1.02 with the parameter /dev/sdb6. I then copied 1 file to this partition formated to LinuxUDF 1.02. I then connected this 2TB HDD with 3 FAT32 partitions and 1 UDF partition to the computer with WinXP (SAI file system driver). Low and behold, WinXP displayed 3 FAT32 partitions and 1 UDF partition.

I then booted into Win98, and Win98 displayed the UDF-partition as FAT32! The file on the UDF-cum-FAT32 partition displayed fine. So I copied onto this UDF-cum-FAT32 partition another file under Win98 (FAT32 of course is read-write and UDF is read-only under normal Win98), and then connected the 2TB HDD to the Ubuntu computer, and low and behold, both files, accessible still under Win98, were gone, zilch, nada, only an empty folder "Lost+Found" was on the UDF partition.

Voodoo and Magic

I then booted into regular WinXP (MS-UDF), and the UDF partition contained only the folder "Lost+Found". Then I booted again into Win98, and the 2 previously lost files were back again in the UDF-cum-FAT32 partition. Amazingly, Partition Table Doctor under Win98 found no errors on the 2TB HDD. ScanDisk reported an error on the UDF-cum-FT32 partition: "The drive contains one or more backup copies of the file allocation table (FAT). The copies should be identical but aren't." After repairing I got another message""ScanDisk found 506.052.608 bytes of data in 30878 lost file fragments." These were probably the 500MB of additional stuff used by LinuxUDF, so I deleted that. Did ScanDisk under Win98 clean up the non-standard stuff of LinuxUDF?

When I subsequently booted into WinXP, the previous UDF partiton had changed into a FAT32 partition, with the original 2 files still there Ok. So maybe ScanDisk under Win98 can repair somehow a damaged FAT32-cum-UDF partition by converting it to FAT32.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Example of data loss

The attachment shows what one gets under WinXP (normal flavor, no WriteUDF!/SAI file system driver) after writing onto a UDF-formatted HDD, alternating between writing under Ubuntu and writing under WinXP (SAI file system driver, WriteUDF!). Under WinXP (SAI file system driver, WriteUDF!) the corrupted HDD causes WinXP to hang, the access light of the UDF-formatted HDD stays red.

The following software is needed for a non-experimental use of UDF-formatted HDDs:

- software which can format a USB HDD to UDF

- software which permits writing onto a UDF-formatted HDD

- a utility to fix UDF-formatted HDDs

One consolation: The data on the UDF102-formatted HDD is still perfectly readable under Win98SE and Ubuntu. Under WinXP (without WriteUDF!), however, My Computer displays a RAW file system.

post-183045-0-70633000-1343182499_thumb.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You also need HDDErase to zero-out the full 2 TB HDD faster than you can say Presto! twice, so you can start from scratch from time to time; a really fast 50 GB USB 3.0 pendrive based on an SSD controller, which reports being a non-removable device and can also run on USB 2.0, if needed. And an Express Card to USB 3.0 adapter, to help speed up things some more. A 50 GB pendrive is big enough for your tests and will allow you to do them more confortably then using such a big HDD, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You also need HDDErase to zero-out the full 2 TB HDD faster than you can say Presto! twice, so you can start from scratch from time to time; a really fast 50 GB USB 3.0 pendrive based on an SSD controller, which reports being a non-removable device and can also run on USB 2.0, if needed. And an Express Card to USB 3.0 adapter, to help speed up things some more. A 50 GB pendrive is big enough for your tests and will allow you to do them more confortably then using such a big HDD, IMO.

There is no reason why he can't just use part of the 2TB Drive and leave the rest unused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True. But my reasoning was a 2 TB HDD is more useful if put to use for backups and the like... unless it's a spare part held in reserve for future use.

In any case, the only expensive hardware I recommended is the Super Talent USB 3.0 Express RC8, which is a really notable piece of hardware, and probably the best pendrive for booting, right now, due to its outstanding 4 kiB random-write speed. While not as good, a 32 or 64 GB Kingston DT Ultimate G2 (or, much better, but hard to find nowadays, the G1, that also used an SSD controller), would do fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, let's start step by step :rolleyes: .

I will start by enumerating (friendly :)) current levels of apparent folly.

@dencorso

Level of folly 8. :w00t:

There is NOT one need in the world to completely wipe any hard disk, let alone a 2 Tb one, you will have that poor drive stressed UNneededly for several hours. :w00t:

You can wipe the first 100, 200 or if you really want to be thorough 2500 sectors, and the disk will be, for all that matters to *ANY* partitioning and formatting tool EXACTLY as it was completely wiped.

@Multibooter

Level of folly 7. :w00t:

Should the message have not been clear before, the 2 Tb disk is too d@mn BIG to be a suitable test platform.

It is so d@mn BIG that you may encounter several, and I mean several different "barriers", "limits" and what not.

Get a smaller hard disk to do the tests, as you had already enough bad results to hope that anything will start working by sheer magic, unless of course you already succeeded in what you want to do in the meantime,

If I were Multibooter I would set the 2 Tb aside (without actually wiping it fully and not even "partially") and get a smaller hard disk, the smaller the better, then start some experiments with some order (and method).

Any of Partition Magic or Acronis apps may introduce some "quirks" to both the partitioning and to the formatting, so I woulsd stay well clear of them and do things "manually" using "simpler" and less "automagic" partition tools.

Because there are BIG changes between NT based systems (these having a dividing line between "up to XP" and "Vista :ph34r: and later") and DOS/Win9x/Me and (obviously) MUCH bigger changes between the former ones and Linux, if you "shuffle" all together these three (actually four) (very, very) different platforms, it is unlkely you will get anywhere soon (that is without infinite atttempts and countless failures/data loss, etc.).

I would suggest you to go in "couples", choosing one (and only one among):

  • Linux vs. Windows VIsta :ph34r: (or later)
  • Linux vs. NT up to XP
  • Linux vs Win9x

then, once you have found and hopefully solved the "big" issues, and have a "common" filesystem without loss of data (i.e. a working couple) get to the other "term" of one of the "other" two couples, i.e. as an example, if you choose (and succeed with):

  • Linux vs. NT up to XP

then you can tackle EITHER of:

  • Linux vs. Win9x

OR:

  • NT up to XP vs. Win9x

(they will be the same thing).

By doing (like you are seemingly up to):

  • Linux vs. NT up to XP vs. Win9x

you risk (IMHO) to put too many things together...

jaclaz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
<br/>

I am attaching a screen shot. The file of this screen shot is actually the added file on the LinuxUDF HDD, which is visible under Ubuntu, invisible under Win98SE and which causes problems for WinXP.

This is great! Apparently the UDF filesystem starts with a partition table, which is conscientiously read by fdisk, and it shows the nested partition /dev/sdb1p1 (the notation ..pn is used for partitions on devices which normally don't have partition tables, like mc cards and loop devices. And apparently also partitions.

The size in blocks of /dev/sdb1 and /dev/sdb1p1 is equal, so it seems the partition /dev/sdb1p1 also contains the partition table itself! (Maybe this causes your WinXP hang? This is fully recursive, so it could be running forever trying to find the most inner partition table)

Can you repeat this with 'fdisk -lu'? This will show the start and endpoint of the partition(s) in sectors, instead of cylinders.

About your FAT-UDF hybrid: Did you change the filesystem ID in the partitiontable from FAT32 to HPFS/NTFS? AFAIK Win9x just reads the filesystem ID, and tries to mount using the dictated filesystem. So in case of FAT32 it reads the MBR, finds the size of the FATS and the startsector of the rootdirectory, which all might be just there, if UDF didn't overwrite it. 2 filesystems can coexist on one blockdevice as long as they don't overwrite each others vital structures. (All 'unformat' utilities are based on this).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you repeat this with 'fdisk -lu'? This will show the start and endpoint of the partition(s) in sectors, instead of cylinders.
Hi Mijzelf,

Great to have you on board. I am attaching a screenshot of the 2TB HDD under Ubuntu, freshly formatted under WinXP with WriteUDF to UDF 1.02. If you need the screen shot in the future, please save it since I am running out of upload space and will delete it soon.

About your FAT-UDF hybrid: Did you change the filesystem ID in the partitiontable from FAT32 to HPFS/NTFS? AFAIK Win9x just reads the filesystem ID, and tries to mount using the dictated filesystem. So in case of FAT32 it reads the MBR, finds the size of the FATS and the startsector of the rootdirectory, which all might be just there, if UDF didn't overwrite it. 2 filesystems can coexist on one blockdevice as long as they don't overwrite each others vital structures. (All 'unformat' utilities are based on this).
I did not do any changes to that corrupted HDD. Apparently Win98SE was reading earlier left-over stuff:
... I didn't select "Clear" (=overwrite stuff at the beginning of the disk) under Acronis...

post-183045-0-19997800-1343241780_thumb.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WriteUDF! - Quick format only for HDD

I am attaching a screen shot of WriteUDF! in action under WinXP. WriteUDF! apparently only can make quick formats ("Quick erase") of HDDs. The selection "Format " has always stayed greyed out when I was formatting a HDD. The selection "Format" is not greyed out with media like CD-RW.

WriteUDF! can only be run from the context menu, i.e. there must be already a drive letter assigned to the drive to be formatted to UDF. With respect to HDDs this means that the HDD must have been formatted already to something which WinXP recognizes.

There is a serious issue with WriteUDF!: After installing WriteUDF!, you cannot format in an LS-120 drive a regular 1.44MB floppy disk, a regular 720kB floppy disk or a 120MB LS-120 floppy anymore, WriteUDF! replaces MS Format in that case. This is one reason why WriteUDF! should be installed on a dedicated WinXP opsys selection.

post-183045-0-43701500-1343243857_thumb.

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no reason why he can't just use part of the 2TB Drive and leave the rest unused.
Hi rloew,

When I had created 4 logical 20GB FAT32 partitions on the 2TB HDD, and then right-clicked in My Computer on the 2nd FAT32 partition on the 2TB HDD, the format window of WriteUDF! came up. Although WriteUDF! displayed 20GB to be formatted to UDF, WriteUDF! actually formatted the whole 2TB HDD to UDF (no warning!). After formatting one partition with WriteUDF! the whole 2TB HDD was formatted to UDF and the 2TB HDD had only 1 drive letter, the drive letters of the other 3 logical partitions were gone.

One user manual of SAI states "SAI is the only software company to guarantee that its UDF format is OSTA UDF compliant".

Edited by Multibooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...