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Engineering

Does Windows 7 > Windows XP ?

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Windows 7 is just a marketing ploy created by Microsoft to win back the people who were scared away by the bad reception of Vista. They think that by redressing Vista, selling as a new and 'better than ever' product, they win everyone who hated Vista, back. The sad thing is... it works. There was never anything wrong with Vista except from psychological dilusion, and Windows 7 is actively proving that with all of the people jumping up and down claiming it is the best product since sliced bread. The mojave project was a pre-emption of this, and further goes to prove that there was never anything wrong with Vista. I firmly believe Windows 7 is merely a Windows Vista service pack with an outrageous price tag.

And to really take the cake, they are now removing or breaking features that were already heading down the pan in Vista. Vista's movie maker was broken and ruined compared to XPs and couldn't even record video from an input device. Nor could you view a webcam in 'My Computer', like you could in XP. In Windows 7, there's no Movie Maker at all, and if you want it you have to download the Windows Live Essentials or install a third party product.

Microsoft definitely reached its pinnacle with XP, with usability particularly. You can do an amazing amount of tasks in XP natively even to this day (case in point once again, viewing a webcam right from My Computer) that you couldn't do in Windows 2000 and below, and that you now cannot do, again, in newer versions of Windows. Clearly we are taking steps back here and I just don't like what I am seeing!

I also forgot to mention that with the removal of Windows Movie Maker comes removal of other items like Windows Mail (was Outlook Express) that people have come to take for granted in recent years. People will now wonder when they buy a PC with Windows 7 how they are going to read their mail, because I can be pretty **** sure they don't have the psychic ability to automatically know they now have to download their email program??

Edited by JustinStacey.x

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Windows 7 is just a marketing ploy created by Microsoft to win back the people who were scared away by the bad reception of Vista. They think that by redressing Vista, selling as a new and 'better than ever' product, they win everyone who hated Vista, back. The sad thing is... it works. There was never anything wrong with Vista except from psychological dilusion, and Windows 7 is actively proving that with all of the people jumping up and down claiming it is the best product since sliced bread. The mojave project was a pre-emption of this, and further goes to prove that there was never anything wrong with Vista. I firmly believe Windows 7 is merely a Windows Vista service pack with an outrageous price tag.

And to really take the cake, they are now removing or breaking features that were already heading down the pan in Vista. Vista's movie maker was broken and ruined compared to XPs and couldn't even record video from an input device. Nor could you view a webcam in 'My Computer', like you could in XP. In Windows 7, there's no Movie Maker at all, and if you want it you have to download the Windows Live Essentials or install a third party product.

Microsoft definitely reached its pinnacle with XP, with usability particularly. You can do an amazing amount of tasks in XP natively even to this day (case in point once again, viewing a webcam right from My Computer) that you couldn't do in Windows 2000 and below, and that you now cannot do, again, in newer versions of Windows. Clearly we are taking steps back here and I just don't like what I am seeing!

The ignorance shown here is simply astounding.

While they may be similiar Win7 is years ahead of Vista.

MS wanted to bury Vista and try to get past the mistakes they made with it.

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The ignorance shown here is simply astounding.

While they may be similiar Win7 is years ahead of Vista.

MS wanted to bury Vista and try to get past the mistakes they made with it.

:thumbup

I have tried and tried to spread the truth about Win 7. Some people you can't reach, so you get what we have here.

I could not agree more Kelsenellenelvian! :hello:

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Windows 7 is just a marketing ploy created by Microsoft to win back the people who were scared away by the bad reception of Vista. They think that by redressing Vista, selling as a new and 'better than ever' product, they win everyone who hated Vista, back. The sad thing is... it works. There was never anything wrong with Vista except from psychological dilusion, and Windows 7 is actively proving that with all of the people jumping up and down claiming it is the best product since sliced bread. The mojave project was a pre-emption of this, and further goes to prove that there was never anything wrong with Vista. I firmly believe Windows 7 is merely a Windows Vista service pack with an outrageous price tag.

And to really take the cake, they are now removing or breaking features that were already heading down the pan in Vista. Vista's movie maker was broken and ruined compared to XPs and couldn't even record video from an input device. Nor could you view a webcam in 'My Computer', like you could in XP. In Windows 7, there's no Movie Maker at all, and if you want it you have to download the Windows Live Essentials or install a third party product.

Microsoft definitely reached its pinnacle with XP, with usability particularly. You can do an amazing amount of tasks in XP natively even to this day (case in point once again, viewing a webcam right from My Computer) that you couldn't do in Windows 2000 and below, and that you now cannot do, again, in newer versions of Windows. Clearly we are taking steps back here and I just don't like what I am seeing!

The ignorance shown here is simply astounding.

While they may be similiar Win7 is years ahead of Vista.

MS wanted to bury Vista and try to get past the mistakes they made with it.

Go ahead and explain that to me how I am showing ignorance.

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You can't argue logic with someone who has come to their opinion without using logic - it doesn't work. I know people will hate on Win7 just like they did on Vista, but this time they won't have anything logical to fall back on other than calling it "window dressing" or "a marketing ploy", etc. It's not worth your time and energy to argue with someone about Win7 when the arguments devolve into reasons like this.

However, I do feel that this isn't illogical, just perhaps a difference of opinion - I don't agree with it, but it's an opinion. Here's my thoughts on this:

Windows 7 is just a marketing ploy created by Microsoft to win back the people who were scared away by the bad reception of Vista.
Well, it's not so much a marketing ploy as it was code cleanup and removing and adding features when and where it made sense. Also, reworking the kernel and the video subsystem to run with less resources, fixing all the bugs that were filed for Vista that couldn't be fixed on the Vista platform, and adding in a lot of features (admittedly enterprise-level and not very useful in the home) to make it easier to manage, maintain, and deploy (anyone who's played with DISM, MDT/SCCM, and a Win7 or 2008 R2 image knows this).
There was never anything wrong with Vista except from psychological dilusion, and Windows 7 is actively proving that with all of the people jumping up and down claiming it is the best product since sliced bread. The mojave project was a pre-emption of this, and further goes to prove that there was never anything wrong with Vista. I firmly believe Windows 7 is merely a Windows Vista service pack with an outrageous price tag.
I would agree with you to a point - Vista RTM was a rushed piece of turd, and it was NOT ready for prime time - it was released early to appease folks with Software Assurance contracts that would have expired without a new version of Windows, plain and simple. Driver vendors weren't ready (partially their own fault, but partially Microsoft's fault for rebooting from the XP to 2003 codebase, changing much of the kernel, and giving driver developers basically less than 24 months to rewrite drivers for the new architecture before RTM (and especially with the changes to printing and video, this was NOT something that is a simple recompile - they were vastly different from their XP or 2003 counterparts). Vista SP1 fixed the Vista side of things, but it was already too late - the lemmings believed everything they were told by the trade rags about Vista, and compare XP to Vista RTM. Vista is heavy compared to XP, and it is heavy even on mid-range hardware for 2006 when it was released, but there was really nothing wrong with Vista SP1 and there's nothing wrong with Vista SP2. However, Win7 really does tighten up the codebase for performance and driver compat, and is designed more to run on things like Intel Atom processors and slower P4 or AMD K7 CPUs, given enough breathing room in the RAM department (I'd still not run Win7 on anything with less than 1GB RAM, but in 2009 I shouldn't be expected to either).
And to really take the cake, they are now removing or breaking features that were already heading down the pan in Vista. Vista's movie maker was broken and ruined compared to XPs and couldn't even record video from an input device. Nor could you view a webcam in 'My Computer', like you could in XP. In Windows 7, there's no Movie Maker at all, and if you want it you have to download the Windows Live Essentials or install a third party product.
Correct - this makes it easier to keep the user experience consistent across (supported) OS levels, and I always include the latest Live Essentials package as part of any build I do for myself or others. This actually makes sense to do, although it'll be a bit of a pain for upgrading Vista users who will find no more Windows Mail on a default 7 install.
Microsoft definitely reached its pinnacle with XP, with usability particularly. You can do an amazing amount of tasks in XP natively even to this day (case in point once again, viewing a webcam right from My Computer) that you couldn't do in Windows 2000 and below, and that you now cannot do, again, in newer versions of Windows. Clearly we are taking steps back here and I just don't like what I am seeing!
I would argue that XP SP2 was indeed the pinnacle of stability for the NT5 codebase, but you need to be careful when comparing features (webcam in my computer) with stability (uptime, lower patch count, multitasking) - they're not interchangeable. I personally find Win7's interface (including webcam only in the app designed to host it) rather than dumping those binaries in such a low-level user-mode app such as explorer.exe - while it works, it's not the safest thing to do considering there's always the potential for exploits (and the webcam driver now has a global hook for all windows too - no thanks).
I also forgot to mention that with the removal of Windows Movie Maker comes removal of other items like Windows Mail (was Outlook Express) that people have come to take for granted in recent years. People will now wonder when they buy a PC with Windows 7 how they are going to read their mail, because I can be pretty **** sure they don't have the psychic ability to automatically know they now have to download their email program??
I don't know how I feel about this - correct that the apps disappear, but the Windows 7 OOBE does point you to Windows Live for these apps, so it's 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other. It's a wash to me, and again, I think it's better that these NOT be part of the OS so as to keep app and code consistency across supported platforms. It also makes it easier for the dev group to release newer versions that only have to be tested in specific scenarios rather than having to go through the full OS test matrices to get a new version released (and even then, only with a major OS revision, like a service pack). Look at how long IE6 has lived (and will continue to live and be supported) on XP versus what could have been if the browser was not released with the OS. It's a pain point, but it's pain with gain, I feel.

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You can't argue logic with someone who has come to their opinion without using logic - it doesn't work. I know people will hate on Win7 just like they did on Vista, but this time they won't have anything logical to fall back on other than calling it "window dressing" or "a marketing ploy", etc. It's not worth your time and energy to argue with someone about Win7 when the arguments devolve into reasons like this.

Well, I am asking for an explanation which I think is reasonable. You're saying I am not using logic to come to this conclusion, well here's my logic for you.

I do a fair amount of amateur video making in Windows Xp. Sometimes I like to take a photo with my webcam, or record a small movie of my cat purring on my lap with the cam. I might even want to read a newsgroup in Outlook Express. Guess what homie? I can do all of those things natively in Windows XP without the need to load third party software.

I upgrade to Vista and I find that I can now read my newsgroup fine in Windows Mail, and can make a movie with existing materials in Movie Maker. However, in order to take a photo with my webcam, I now need to download a third party piece of software to view and use it, and also install a third party program to record and edit video from the cam such as Ulead Videostudio. I say hey ok, not bad, I have those programs on disk.

I then go and upgrade to Windows 7 and find that much to my surprise, I can't do any of what I could do with XP out of the box, in Windows 7, without faffing around downloading third party apps and installing extra support which was once provided.

I use Win Vista at work so I don't need a lot of that stuff that Vista has so graciously broken in half or made so horrible to use I wouldn't want to anyway, and since I'm on a high end P4 with 2 gigs of RAM I couldn't resist. However, at the house, things are very different. I want things done my way and as easily as possible without having to load a third party software. Since formatting my computer away from Vista and putting on XP, I find I have needed less software to do the same jobs. Apply the same rule to Windows 7 and I would actually have to spend money to achieve the same tasks as I was doing in Windows XP FOR FREE.

Similarly, if I was to use Windows 2000, I would also have to install third party utilities to see my webcam and edit my video. Case in point, Windows XP being the pinnacle in this particular situation.

And I can guarantee right now, that when Windows 7 becomes mainstream, my support calls will increase from disgruntled Veterans saying 'HELP! I can't read my emails with my new computer because I don't have an email program!' 'HELP! I can't edit the family photos because Windows Movie Maker has gone!'

And so forth.

Now, if that logic isn't good enough I give up.

EDIT: Interesting Cluberti how you have now edited your post into something meaningful making my above largely redundant. I disagree with some of it but hey I guess that makes me wrong, because newer is always better, right?

Personally I have found XP to be just as stable than Windows Vista if not more than.

Edited by JustinStacey.x

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the Windows 7 OOBE does point you to Windows Live for these apps, so it's 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other.

Its not the point Cluberti. To have to pay what one does for Windows 7, and then to basically be told 'right lad, off you go and download your applications, then' is utterly ludicrous. Apple Mac users pay a premium for what they get but out of the box they get a graphical backup utility that, while admittedly is just a simple concept overblown, it is easy to use and is THERE, they get a mail client, calendar and all the rest of the essentials. They can make movies and music and store all their pictures and sort them with iPhoto and if they have AIM, chat with iChat. They don't have to play 'lets go get our apps' after setting up their Mac, do they...

Also, I know a very knowledgeable software programmer over in another forum who has already found many bugs and annoyances in Windows 7 that have been raised since Windows Vista Beta.

Edited by JustinStacey.x

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And Apple doesn't have to worry much about stepping on 3rd party toes when they release a (very good) 1st party app to do something that other vendors may have already written apps to do. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it is a reason it would seem. Also, I sincerely doubt Microsoft is trying to be Apple, rather they're trying to reduce the OS footprint (which is what users want - read the forums here and elsewhere on the 'net) and make apps less dependant on OS version (again, this is what people seem to want). You can't have it both ways - if it ships in the box with the OS, it's STUCK on the box, at that level, regardless of whether or not a new version could or is released for a newer OS. And since Microsoft puts 5 - 10 years of support into an OS lifecycle (and by inclusion every app that shipped on said OS), you have to consider it's the best compromise available. Just because it's done differently (the Live Essentials download way) doesn't mean it's bad, it's just different. If you do want an all-in-one OS, then use a Mac and OS X. But with Windows 7, you're going to have to download the latest Live Essentials bundle (or have it preinstalled for you). Again, it's a wash to me - the OOBE and start menu direct you to WLE for things like this, so yes you have to download. But it also means that in 2019 we won't still have the vast majority of folks holding onto their Win7 boxes with Windows Mail from 2009. I know you don't like it, and I agree you have a right not to, but I personally think it's better this way. Quicker turn-around on newer apps, easier fixes, and less OS dependance on the version you use.

EDIT: Interesting Cluberti how you have now edited your post into something meaningful making my above largely redundant. I disagree with some of it but hey I guess that makes me wrong, because newer is always better, right?

Personally I have found XP to be just as stable than Windows Vista if not more than.

That's fine, I found XP to be stable as was Vista (again, I'm not comparing the RTM code, because it was RTM in name only). However, if the things in XP that are missing from future versions are that big a deal, you need to find out how many others think like this, and start making Microsoft aware of your concerns. Personally I never used explorer as my webcam viewer, and I don't know anyone who did - it doesn't make me right or you wrong, but it does make our experiences and expectations of newer versions different.

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Are you high?

First of all, you may want to refresh yourself on what an operating system is supposed to be.

The popularity of nLite and vLite demonstrates how sadly alone you are to complain that Windows 7 does not come with Windows Movie Maker. People would rather have the choice to install what they want then to have a bunch of bundled crap that they don't want and have to try to hack out. Anyway, what the hell are you complaining about? It's available as a FREE download! If you're too lazy to do a couple of mouse clicks to download and install it, maybe you should go use a one button Mac and forget about Windows.

And on top of that, people complain that Microsoft's a monopoly and consistently sue them both in the USA and in in Europe and then complain when Microsoft gets their hands tied and can no longer include anything! You might want to take a shower and rinse the brown out of your eyes.

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Are you high?

First of all, you may want to refresh yourself on what an operating system is supposed to be.

The popularity of nLite and vLite demonstrates how sadly alone you are to complain that Windows 7 does not come with Windows Movie Maker. People would rather have the choice to install what they want then to have a bunch of bundled crap that they don't want and have to try to hack out. Anyway, what the hell are you complaining about? It's available as a FREE download! If you're too lazy to do a couple of mouse clicks to download and install it, maybe you should go use a one button Mac and forget about Windows.

And on top of that, people complain that Microsoft's a monopoly and consistently sue them both in the USA and in in Europe and then complain when Microsoft gets their hands tied and can no longer include anything! You might want to take a shower and rinse the brown out of your eyes.

You obviously don't have the pleasure of working with end users. Remove features they have been used to for the last 10 years and you have trouble, a vastly increased rate of calls, and a lot of questions being asked. I personally like choice, yes, but it doesn't do very much harm to have Outlook Express sitting on my system if I don't use it. if I want to nLite it out, I can. People who want to remove the software often have the knowledge to. Most people who want to use it, will wonder why the heck it's gone. See my point? And don't give me this tripe about it being there from OOBE. We get phone calls from people asking to click Yes or no on an 'are you sure' message, when the question being asked is painfully obvious. Get inside the head of end users sonny Jim and you will understand where I am coming from.

Maybe I should just change all of my posts to 'oh yes Windows 7 is awesome' just to keep you lot happy? I think not.

Edited by JustinStacey.x

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You can't argue logic with someone who has come to their opinion without using logic - it doesn't work. I know people will hate on Win7 just like they did on Vista, but this time they won't have anything logical to fall back on other than calling it "window dressing" or "a marketing ploy", etc. It's not worth your time and energy to argue with someone about Win7 when the arguments devolve into reasons like this.

Yes, but reading those statements lets you think, you have to defend you opinion. I guess it will be hard to convince everybody, if you want to. Win 7 doesn't need any defending and trying to is pointless.

Picking your OS is based on certain things, and those differ from user to user. Just because you choose one means, it is the right one for everybody and that other peoples choices are fundamentally wrong. I read in a forum, you wouldn't go to a supermarket and shout at other customers: "Don't by that washing powder, because it's [overpriced | not better | manufacturer is a monopolist | ... ]". Well that seems to be a valid option on the internet.

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Sigh.. JustinStaceyx post completely overshadowed mine.. can you answer something for last post about TC?

Anyway, to add a comment for Justin:

I don't know if Win7 is just a Vista camouflaged SP3 (and could be), but I heard good reviews about the patched Vista improvements. If the new Windows will work better, I can accept it even knowing the sly method adopted to advertise the product.

Your opinions of dislike, then, adress minor options or programs (moviemaker, webcam, email) that are not relevant to judge an entire OS!

One thing is for sure.. for we users, Microsoft should create new versions in longer time periods (and other companies too).

We can't really chase new system versions just for market purposes!

Edited by phaolo

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Apply the same rule to Windows 7 and I would actually have to spend money to achieve the same tasks as I was doing in Windows XP FOR FREE.

Been notoriously cheap ;), I guess I can comment about this one.

I don't remember Microsoft giving away Xp or Vista licenses for FREE, nor they are probably going to do it now for Windows 7.

The above should be rectified in something like :unsure::

the money you previously gave MS for the privilege of using one of their OS (directly by buying a license or indirectly buying a PC with included XP or Vista) now buys less "accessories".

as you can see the word "FREE" has disappeared completely ;), the sentence keeping more or less the same meaning.

Now a personal opinion, I have NOT any definitive one on Windows 7, as I haven't had the occasion to test it accurately, but while I tend to believe the opinion of a few chaps here that have a record of being objective and knowledgeable, and thus support this new OS for a (or more than one) REASON(s) I have the instinctive feeling that a large number are all for Windows 7 for the exact same reasons they were favourable to XP over 2K (and NO, you cannot use as a comparison term nowadays XP SP3 on modern hardware, you have to compare XP "GOLD" with the hardware that was common in 2001) and later to Vista over XP (just following the lead).

Have you ever tried running "GOLD" XP on a machine with DOUBLE the minimum recommended by MS RAM and TWICE the minimum processor speed?:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865/en-us

256 Mb and 600 Mhz processor

and on the same machine 2K?

For the record minimum requirements for 2K:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/304297/en-us

Have you ever tried running Vista

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-v...quirements.aspx

on one of the PC's it was initially shipped with, typically with 1 Ghz processor and 1 Gb of RAM?

Windows 7 has the same theoretical requirements of Vista (which is a VERY good thing :)):

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/systemrequirements

and everyone reports that is faster than Vista on same hardware, this, as I see it, is an important change in the direction of the development, expecially because modern "common" hardware is around 3 Ghz and 2 to 4 Gb of RAM.

If I were malicious, I could hypotize that it all was a conspiracy to "push" the installed base, exasperated by the sluggishness of Vista, to update hardware, and once this has been done forcibly, get out of the hat an efficient rabbit OS. :ph34r:

jaclaz

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Windows 7 is Vista basically on steroids, and I'm glad performance has improved. Though I'm using it now as my main OS (I skipped Vista, hated it) I never liked Vista/7 folder GUI (I mean, why did Microsoft have too choose this design?), and creating a network is a pain in the a**. Also, they got rid of the network activity animation WTF?!, why Microsoft?

Though I prefer XP more, its time to choose a new OS.

Um,they didn't get rid of the activity animation.It's off by default.Like in Vista.

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You're bending my words jaclaz and to be honest it's beginning to p*** me off. You know exactly what I meant by my comment about not needing to spend more money than necessary with XP so stop twisting my words, thanks.

I don't know about you, but I am not made of money and I don't think I should have to spend more when I didn't before, especially when the newer product is MORE expensive.

1GHz processor when Vista came out? Puh-leaze.

Windows 7 is Vista basically on steroids, and I'm glad performance has improved. Though I'm using it now as my main OS (I skipped Vista, hated it) I never liked Vista/7 folder GUI (I mean, why did Microsoft have too choose this design?), and creating a network is a pain in the a**. Also, they got rid of the network activity animation WTF?!, why Microsoft?

Though I prefer XP more, its time to choose a new OS.

Um,they didn't get rid of the activity animation.It's off by default.Like in Vista.

See, this is what I don't get. Why. Why turn network animation off? Its just a pain in the a** and one more extra thing that needs doing.

You can't argue logic with someone who has come to their opinion without using logic - it doesn't work. I know people will hate on Win7 just like they did on Vista, but this time they won't have anything logical to fall back on other than calling it "window dressing" or "a marketing ploy", etc. It's not worth your time and energy to argue with someone about Win7 when the arguments devolve into reasons like this.

Yes, but reading those statements lets you think, you have to defend you opinion. I guess it will be hard to convince everybody, if you want to. Win 7 doesn't need any defending and trying to is pointless.

Picking your OS is based on certain things, and those differ from user to user. Just because you choose one means, it is the right one for everybody and that other peoples choices are fundamentally wrong. I read in a forum, you wouldn't go to a supermarket and shout at other customers: "Don't by that washing powder, because it's [overpriced | not better | manufacturer is a monopolist | ... ]". Well that seems to be a valid option on the internet.

Well of course. When on the internet people can use their keyboard as a weapon and get carried away. If they were to meet in person they'd probably be very pleasant and 'well, actually, i kinda see your point there'.

Edited by puntoMX

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