awkduck
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On 8/5/2023 at 4:26 AM, TheMajorTechie said:
I've been able to get it to work both with and without video drivers installed on my Athlon XP.
So software render works fine.
@TheMajorTechie This question doesn't help WhiteArmpits, it is just out of curiosity. Is OpenGL hardware accelerated, after you install your video driver?
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I'm working on trying to build a few things. There are plenty of gotchas, when targeting Win9x. The JHRobotics pthread9x might be useful for using newer Msys2/mingw-w64 (32bit or target 32bit). You could then "maybe" avoid issues, that occur from using older build environments/tooling.
If you were trying to build Mesa 21.* for Win98/ME, you could compare your build error outputs to the JHRobotics project, and merge the fix into yours (supposing there were patches implemented/required?).
On a side note: I started wondering if the reason it didn't work for you, but did for TheMajorTechie, has something to do with video drivers. Maybe there is a minimum OpenGL requirement, that you card doesn't have? We're looking at OpenGL4.x against drivers that support OpenGL 2.1 and maybe 3.x.
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Didn't you, at one point, have a build environment setup? Or was that only for building Qemu, and not for building Win9x software?
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On 4/27/2023 at 6:01 AM, woi said:
It's for VMs only
This is on the Github page:
QuoteMesa 17.x build for Windows 98 require at last Intel Core2 CPU (SSE3 required).
So you could try using the Win95 Mesa 17.
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On 7/27/2023 at 2:09 AM, WinFX said:
I barely have knowledge of assembly language, I barely have a little experience with Windows NT 5.x (2000 and XP), but I don't know how to add a dependency/ordinal to a Windows 9x kernel, since when I expand the table I get a BSOD. Unlike KernelEX for 98 and ME, I want to replace the system files directly to run software that is compatible with the latest 9x.
What do you mean "replace system files"? Reverse engineer and replace, patch in place, or use newer versions (maybe patched)?
I've wanted to extend Win32s (Win3.x) and add full fat32 support, to early Win95.
Anyway, I had heard that extremely early versions of KernelEx supported Win95. But I never found any, and assumed what I had read was someones misunderstanding.
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I've seen that, too. Haven't tried it. Have you used it?
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Windows 95 - Mingw and TDM GCC 4.7.1?
Windows 98/ME - Mingw/Mingw-w64/TDM GCC 5.4.* (PII and higher)?
Dwarf vs sjlj?
Cross compile vs native?
WINVER, _WIN32_WINNT, and _WIN32_WINDOWS? Does GCC even use _WIN32_WINDOWS?
Msys, Msys2, Cygwin?
I've been using Msys, Mingw-w32 GCC 5.4.0, and Wine. I haven't tested using natively, with KernelEx. It may not work natively (Mingw GCC 4.7.* or 4.8.* was the last to run natively?).
I've thought about doing a custom GCC build; but I haven't needed one yet.
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What GCC compilers/compiler distributions are people using to target Windows 98? Just brewing their own builds?Edit: Never mind. The question only partially fits the thread's current state.
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Dxirc, is an IRC that works with Win98 (KernelEx). It has SSL, DCC, and handles scripts. I recommend the dxirc-1.30.0-fox-portable.zip package. The intended portable part of the package is useless. The folder you want is "\dxirc\App\dxirc". Once it is save elsewhere, the previously underlying folders/files can be deleted.
The setup.exe package is fine, but it includes both the QT (unusable) and Fox user interface files.
The client is mostly functional. I've had to manually enter custom folder locations (logs, DCC, scripts, etc.). The browse window does not work correctly, but it allows you to manually type your locations. Alternatively, you can open the "dxirc.ini" file, with notepad. The folder locations can be modified there.
The application will also create settings folders/files at the root directory, of the drive you ran it from (\foxrc\dxirc-fox.ini and \dxirc\dxirc.ini). This can be fixed, to some degree.
You'll need a hex editor, to modify "dxirc-fox.exe" and "libFOX-1.6.0.dll".
For "dxirc-fox.exe" you need to search for the string "dxirc.ini" (without quotations).
* = 00 (zeroed out)
Change \*dxirc*\dxirc.ini*AppData to **prefs*\dxirc.ini********
Now "dxirc.ini" will be saved/loaded from the "prefs" folder, from inside the main "dxirc" folder.
For "libFOX-1.6.0.dll", I essentially just prevent the creation of the "\foxrc\dxirc-fox.ini" folder and file.
Now search for the string "USERPROFILE"
Change USERPROFILE*\foxrc to USERPROFILE**foxrc
In my option, the settings saved in "dxirc-fox.ini" are pretty insignificant. You'll probably never notice them being gone. However, it is simple to change back.
If you haven't already, you'll want to adjust your Windows TCP settings. Maybe with TCPOptimizer (ver 3.0.8). If you keep the default Windows TCP settings, things will crawl.
Also, Dxirc does not come with a populated server list. You'll need to add the servers to the list.
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I haven't really used ME.
ME still uses the Win9x "net" command.... Right?
Only environment variables are supposed to be read from Autoexec.bat and Config.sys (via the registry?). But that doesn't mean another (NDIS2) initiation wasn't supplied.
ME was meant to be legacy free, so I suppose NDIS2 could've been dropped.
If you are trying, what is happening?
Is this a system you haven't setup yet, seeking NDIS2 validation first?
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I'll keep an eye out.
The only thing that comes to mind is XnView. I doubt it comes close to everything you need. There is a version that works with normal Win9x. But I think Version 6.53 works with KernelEx. It has slideshow creation type options(s?).
There is CubicExplorer (Version 0.95.0.1424). It may also need KernelEx, but only has a filmstrip view mode.
I'm sure there is something, but it might not be freeware. If I bump into anything, I'll pass the name(s) along.
I'm a little curious how one (app) will work with Etsy. For viewing and selecting the perfect set of images? Or uploading a collage? Its not important; I just haven't worked with Etsy. Though, I have thought about it.
Edit: If I was in a pinch, and had to come up with a collage, I'd maybe use something like Komposer or Seamonkey's Composer. They are for webpage creation, but should work for image layout. A person could just use invisible tables. If you've never used software like that before, it can take some mastering. You shouldn't need any Html knowledge, it is WYSIWYG. Spacing and alignment are key things to focus on.
On that kind of line, there are probably other options too.
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3 hours ago, UCyborg said:
They still sell this in 2023?
Think that was one of the causes for Razorback95.com's Redtoast project. Some annoyance that it "98Lite" hadn't been released to the public, full and free.
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I haven't gotten into tweaking KernelEx, yet. I wonder if the DIY KernelEx extensions thread would help? There is also the KernelEx Auxiliary DLL Updates thread. The later may already be included, in the latest KernelEx; but maybe there is some helpful reading.
There are some threads about working with more modern Web Browsers. Some have tweaked KernelEx, to reach better success. You might be able to garner some pro tips, off those.
I wish I could be more helpful. I just noticed this post didn't get much for replies. I hope something is useful.
It might help to first take a whack at it, after reading up on it. Then ask a specific question, about one step of the process.
People may shy away, from replying, if they feel like they will be schooling someone every step of the way. Not because they don't wanna help, but more likely because of the time investment (tired from work and stuff).
I could be wrong.
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9 hours ago, jaclaz said:
NT 4.00 today (unless you have an old machine with its drivers or use a VM, and it has to be seen which VM has drivers for NT 4.00) is in practice impossible to install/use if not in a very basic manner, due to the lack of drivers.
Officially, NT4 stands little chance. If one is willing to put in the work, it looks like you can do it. I haven't done it, but was tempted. I noticed FAT32, USB2.0 mass storage, and an HDA audio driver (also provides for many other chips). BEARWINDOWS has a good write up, on it all. It is one of those things I might try, if I was really bored.
I believe Kqemu (for older Qemu) works with NT4. That has lured me a little; just as a pure play thing.
I feel my thread hijacking habit creeping in.
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I've read 2k was rock solid. And NT looks tempting, as a challenge on newer machines.
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2 hours ago, MrMateczko said:
As you're using 98 FE, please do note that WDM implementation in FE is not really that good, WDM was properly introduced/fixed in 98 SE/ME.
The USB device is a Behringer Xenyx Q502USB. But I've also been testing with some generic USB audio device.
This issue is resolved.
I use WDM on 98FE pretty often. I've read the Microsoft documentation, on the limitations. But I do have to wonder if having updated files allows extra functionality. The author of ASIO4ALL says his software (ver 2.14) will not work with Win98FE. However, it works fine for me. ASIO4ALL will only work with WDM. Either he has misunderstood the state of WDM drivers, in Win98FE, or some O.S. updates and/or 3rd Party add-on allow me to use it, when I shouldn't be able to.
I'm not doing anything professional/commercial. This is for artistic entertainment. I am now able to use Guitar Rig 2, with 10ms of latency (Steinberg DXASIO); less with ASIO4ALL. Guitar Rig 2 is also not meant to run on Win9x. I've ran these programs, with Linux Wine, for years. But I am squeezing more out of the machine, running with Win98.
I also have way less latency, with my MIDI devices (Win98). I have a MIDI sound module with an extended audio bank and a MIDI keyboard. Using my old Cakewalk is far more "enjoyable" then the modern software. And 98 does a much better job of staying out of the way. But Linux wasn't too bad, in this instance.
There is equipment compatible, with Win98, that would allow me higher sample rates and bits. But the 16bit/48000kHz limit is plenty for me. Sounds no worse then the digital compact discs, I grew up with. If I needed better, I'd go back to using the same software/hardware on Linux Wine. Or use Win98 on a desktop with quality audio card.
But, to the meat of the USB issue....
It came down to the state of the USB port itself. When I tested an earlier backed up version, of my install, everything worked fine (USB audio). But that install was still on a physical SDHC2IDE device. So booting happened over IDE. A little comparison, between the two installs, showed nothing obviously different.
This machine normally runs with no harddrive in it. It boots from USB, and loads a drive image (Win98FE) to memory. All of the programs, besides some essential utilities, are saved as portable apps on the USB device. An issue I originally had, was that Windows would boot and Hang. This was fixed by using Grub2 and loading Grub2's booting drivers. This worked great, until now (USB audio). The temporary fix, is not using Grub2's booting drivers. Then when Windows boots to the Dos prompt, as I do with every install, I disconnect the USB storage device. Then loading Windows does not hang, and I can reinsert the USB storage device. After this point, USB audio works just as it should.
This machine has had plenty of strange issues, with USB. I don't have any of these problems, with a Wyse Cx0. I bring a little pain on myself, by running with a USB booted Live Windows. But for me, the benefits are worth it.
For now, I will have two boot menu entries. One with Grub2 booting drivers, and one without. The only time I really need the low audio latency, is with live audio recording. It will be a pain removing and reinserting the USB storage device, every time I boot with the intent to do live audio. But I can live with it for now. If I find a better fix, I will post it. But I don't know how much I'll look into it. This gets me going.
I did learn that the WDM drivers, for AC97, have problems other WDM drivers do not. But it only seems DirectX related. Using the USB WDM driver does not have issues with DX9 at all. No crashes with applications using DX audio plugins. Other sound cards, with WDM drivers, have also worked fine. And I wonder if other AC97 chips would be okay. I've only had the DirectX issue with the two I've worked with.
Anyway, thank you for coming with aid and advice :)
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11 hours ago, jaclaz said:
No, sorry but I have to correct you.
The MBR code only chainloads the active partition PBR (bootsector), it is this latter what loads NTLDR (under NT).
In this case the active partition is the C: (NTFS) and win 9x won't touch it.
BUT, exactly because the active partition is NTFS, it won't be easy to dual boot XP and 9x (without using an advanced boot manager like grub4dos or a "special" MBR such as MBLDR).
Thanks. Knew something was missing. I remember changing "just" the active partition, to dual boot (no boot loader). Think I just used a bootable Dos floppy, with FDISK.
It was not an efficient dual boot; but it lasted long enough to decide I wanted nothing to do with XP.
XP was the last Windows I used, before switching to Linux (2003); and I only used XP a short while. Never really used 2k or NT3/4.
After about 20 years of Linux, I'm using 98 again.
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There are many ways to do this.
The difficulty is picking one that fits all your needs.
You might look into Grub4Dos. It is very versatile.
You can research using XP's "boot.ini".
The first issue, I see, is not borking your XP MBR. It loads the XP NTLDR. If you install Windows 98, the MBR will change.
It isn't hard to overcome this. But it depends on what you want.
The way that involves the least learning, is installing 98 first, then XP. XP setup will detect 98, and boot.ini can be configured to load 98 "via a menu" instead of XP. I've never done it that way. I assume it is straight forward, but I have no clue.
You can look into the different boot loaders, of which Grub4Dos is one. Some are more automated then others, and each has it's own options. Some may not support NTFS.
You might pick a boot loader, to research, then investigate how to install and boot both version of Windows with it.
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Those annoying bad drive letters. No matter how hard you try not to, you'll still click them. Especially if they are the ones that fudge your system stability.
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On 5/23/2023 at 7:21 PM, MrMateczko said:
And don't get me started on the SciTech Display Doctor, ugh
I'd be a little less annoyed by it, if I spent enough time to resolve the USB2.0 conflict that it comes with. Works well "enough" with Windows 95. Same issue with the Snap driver (also SciTech).
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@MrMateczko I back-up my installs, as they develop. Testing an earlier install, USB worked fine.
Wondering if clearing out "Windows\Options\Cabs" caused something incorrect to get copied, during the USB audio device installation?
@ABCDEFG I can't remember which chip it is, off hand. From what I can tell, this isn't an ideal audio device. The "WDM" drivers install with DirectSound support (crashes applications using DX audio plugins). But the "VxD" drivers install as emulated.
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Class\MEDIA\0010\DirectSound\Device Presence] "Emulated"=dword:00000001 "VxD"=dword:00000001 "WDM"=dword:00000001Correcting the "WDM", and changing the "Emulated", values has makes no difference. This has been the case since the fresh installation.
But, I may have fallen in to some luck. The "WDM" USB audio driver does not cause crashes (with applications using DX audio plugins). The USB audio does work with ASIO4ALL. ASIO4ALL ver 2.14 works with Win98FE, despite the authors claim otherwise. But this install does have updated files.
It is just as well, that the VxD driver is DX emulated, I've never used Steinbergs DXASIO. I have no idea if it would have shortened audio latency enough.
I'll probably investigate, to see if I can repair my current installs USB issue (knowledge gained).
But I may have to bring the back-up install up-to-date. It isn't the worst task, since it is a basic USB memory image. All applications are installed portable (off image).
So, AC97 "WDM" drivers may be problematic. This is the second chip that has caused issues, with DX audio plugins. Perhaps I am lucky the "VxD" driver is emulated; else it might have caused issues too. Who knows?
I've been thinking about looking into PCMCIA cards. But if I got too serious, I'd just be using a Desktop.
Thank you, I am glad for the communities input.
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17 hours ago, MrMateczko said:
Is @awkduck using 98FE?
Yes.
It only happens when exiting "Safe Mode". There is no USB/Audio in safe mode.
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Rebooting Windows, from safe mode, I am prompted with the "Wait, End Task, Cancel" window.
The title is "Multimedia Input Serivce".
In "Process Explorer" I see nothing running, except the bare safe mode minimum. No applications/services initiated, from start-up/registry.
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@deomsh I remember doing it for machines that were all the same, years ago (schools/business). But I haven't done it in a long time.
I think everything needed to be in your Win98 setup folder's root. But I'm not sure how you controlled installation order, which may be required in some situations. I think there was a way.
I have read about slipstream tools. But I've never used them.
I couldn't find it, with a brief search, but there was a thread involving the "Unofficial Service Pack" (PROBLEMCHYLD) and USB only machines. I seem to remember something there correlated to "post install" USB driver tricks. The service pack was causing the common "Click Next How?" issue, with updated USB drivers. Maybe it has relevant information for someone.
Surprised there isn't a "How to" thread on this, already.
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Mesa 17.x.x on Win9x
in Windows 9x/ME
Posted
@WhiteArmpits There are some "OpenGL" environment variables you could try.
For a test, you could try "LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=TRUE".
You could check the OpenGL version supported by your GPU, then try "MESA_GL_VERSION_OVERRIDE=2.1". 2.1 could be set to whatever versions your GPU supports.
I know using the VBEMP Vesa driver, I've needed to set environmental variables for SDL1.2 video and audio output/rendering. Otherwise some SDL applications/games run poorly. This is more true if your audio driver doesn't support accelerated Directsound (some AC97 drivers). So maybe you can tweak OpenGL to play along.
You would open a Command Prompt, in the folder of the OpenGL application you are testing, and type something like:
Then from that same Command Prompt enter the command to initiate your OpenGL application (Minecraft).
Minecraft may also have environmental variables, that could be set. It might not be a bad idea to check that out; especially if there is something to set comparability with older OpenGL versions.