[Question If this ever existed?]

1 hour ago, jaclaz said:

Maybe useful, maybe not:

Its interesting.

[Question If this ever existed?]

HX Dos Extender, lists Java 5 "console mode" applications as working. Maybe newer versions work. That list is probably old. It might even be possible that some graphics work.

It isn't what you asked for, but there is also Javascript for Dos. It goes beyond command line.

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Was one of those mags "Compute"?

Maybe? There was a variety, handed down to me, from my step-father.

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

The calibration is set on the chip that's on that board and no 2 are the same.

I didn't know that. It should've been an obvious assumption, on my part. I have only worked with the actuator assembly.

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Should we take this conversation private?

I would probably be kind.

 

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

IBM 360, The RPG was on an IBM 370 System3 and the COBOL/JCL/DB2/CICS was on an IBM S390

I don't know if this would interest you. I've mean to eventually check it out, for x86.

In some ways, COBOL is still a "Hot" language.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Programming on a mainframe is awesomely cool

I've never had the pleasure. When I was a young man, my mother worked for "Cray Research". The closest I ever got, was by looking through the lab windows; you could see from the cafeteria.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

For my 1st computer (the little TI99 4/A)

So did my cousin. I had the Tandy Color Computer II. We both got them as hand-me-downs. They were beyond their expiration date, at that time. I never actually learned the included Basic. I just copied text, from old magazines.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

they returned it to me 2 days later saying there was nothing.  I really never believed that.  There must be something on there that can be saved.

If it was IDE, I'm not sure they even plugged it in. They might not do much, for hardware failure. They can probably deal with "bad blocks".  You could buy a duplicate "working" drive online. It needs to be the exact same model; same revision and everything. Depending on what is wrong, with the drive, the external boards can be swapped. If it is internal hardware, then it can be replaced, from the working drive.

I "don't" recommend that you do the internal repairs yourself. There are special tools needed, for each drive brand. Even if you have the tools, it is very easy to make a mistake. It is also hard to create a safe environment, for opening the drive. I have seen it work out, when no "special" tools where used and no special environment conditions were provided. But, perhaps they would have recovered more data, had the disks not been exposed to dust.

There are places you can send drives, to have this work done. I also don't know if they support older hardware.

[USBDDOS Driver]

This is a USB driver "fork" from the "USB OPL3 RetroWave".

The fork is by "Crazii", the person responsible for SBEMU.

Like with SBEMU, this driver won't really provide any function to Win9x (untested). But it will be useful to some Win9x users.

Some machines have no PS2 keyboard/mouse support. Or, if they do, you'll loose it when Windows loads your USB drivers.

With this driver, you can potentially enable USB keyboard/mouse support, by using it with "DOSSTART.BAT".

This way you can exit to Dos, and not be stranded.

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, justacruzr2 said:

There is also the consideration, especially on older systems, that Intel did not put the CPU instruction set in the same place on the chip address-wise.  I've talked with some older programmers who would complain that code would sometimes have to be re-written due to this.

Just to be clear, have you yourself written in assembly? Its not important. I just wanted to ask.

[SBEMU]

Seems there is some, progressive, work on a Dos SoundBlaster emulator (real/protected).

This is what the SBEMU project page says:

Quote

Sound blaster emulation with OPL3 for AC97.

Supported Sound cards:

Intel ICH / nForce

Intel High Definition Audio

VIA VT82C686, VT8233

The VT82C868 & ICH4 are tested working on real machine.
ICH & HDA tested working in virtualbox, not verified on real machine yet.
HDA tested working by community.

Emulated modes/cards:
8 bit & 16 bit DMA (mono, stereo, high-speed)
Sound blaster 1.0, 2.0, Pro, 16.

Requirements:

HDPMI32i (HDPMI with IOPL0)

QEMM (optional, used for real mode games)

There are more recent, beta files, found on a well know legacy computing forum. Github seem to have an early release.

I don't see this being useful to Win9x. But it'll probably be useful to people, who use Win9x

[Nero 7 install on 98SE]

21 hours ago, ABCDEFG said:

Yep, i like all the 9x systems but 98fe i like the more than the others.

I also choose 98fe. 95 is very appealing. Too many things make 98fe more useful, for me.

[Windows 98SE From USB?]

I have had problems, using HxD, to save RAM images over 350Mb. When using Grub4dos, the error is "Stream Read Error". With Grub2/Memdisk(from Syslinux), there is no error. But when you boot the saved image, there is filesystem corruption.

I'm not entirely sure it is the size of the image, causing the problem. It could be specific machines. I haven't investigated it very much.

A work around is a Dos USB/Fat32 drive and Partition Saving. This won't work, if the available Dos USB drivers don't work for your machine. There  are some good Dos USB drivers out there. But even the "demo" Dosusb drivers operate long enough, to do a back-up.

Note:These drivers don't work with "EMM386".

The other problem, is that Partition saving adds a very small header. It needs to be cut off, after saving.

If your machine has no PS2 keyboard support, you may have to add a batch file to "C:\Windows\Dosstart.bat". "Partition Saving" can be automated through a configuration file. Then you just exit to Dos, and your batch handles it for you.

Note:If you have prevented Windows from installing a Driver, for a specific USB, your BIOS PS2 Emulation may still work.

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, justacruzr2 said:

Hope you're feeling better now.  And I did understand your reply.

Its nothing to severe, long term. Sometimes only a few hours. But it has prevented me from engaging employment, in remote administration. Such is the way of things.

On 2/23/2023 at 11:18 PM, justacruzr2 said:

Seems like you know or know about several modern programming languages.  My experience is limited to the older ones.  I've programmed in ML (Machine Language/Binary), Assembly, RPG, Cobol, CICS, JCL, DB2 and Basic.  There is also the consideration, especially on older systems, that Intel did not put the CPU instruction set in the same place on the chip address-wise.  I've talked with some older programmers who would complain that code would sometimes have to be re-written due to this.  But I think this had to do with changes between the 286, 386 and 486 chips and then the Pentium line.  I think they have probably standardized it by now.  It's been about 10 years since I did any programming.  The last thing I was working on was lost when the hard drive crashed.  I had 7 years invested in that.  It was a large project.  I only just recently was able to recover an old backup of it which unfortunately is 7 years older than the last time I worked on it.  Trying to remember everything I did during those 7 years is impossible.  I should have made a more recent backup.  Live and learn.  Nothing new on the Java front.  I've taken a break to let my mind clear.  I do this sometimes so I can come back to it with a fresh perspective.  Oh, it wasn't Nero but I think it was one of the other Java updates.  I have Java 5 update 18, 21 and 22.  I probably grabbed the wrong one and didn't notice.

I've had many harddrive failures, in the last few years. That is part of what has taken me so long, in setting up a development environment. Add to it, that I am fickle at system crafting. The aim is redundant safe saves and quick machine portability.

Years ago, I had a several year project zeroed on me. Ironically, it was in Java. It can really be discouraging. It has happened often enough, that I've learn to just let it go. However, once in a while, it was for the better.

I have messed with many different languages and operating systems. Not many scripted languages. I don't care for Lisp, but ironically love Scheme; this causes me to admire ML. I like ASM, the simplicity of complexity. Most high level languages, seem like the complexity of simplicity; for the sake of organization/business. On the outside, Forth looks great; but I have yet to investigate it. The moving target of progression, has always seemed poorly implemented. Not having a career agenda, has greatly liberated my scope.

When the 286/386 were in main use, and the 486 in fresh vogue, I really only used C and Batch. I was so out of the loop, I had never even known about Pascal. I knew about GWBasic, but never bothered to check it out. I was pretty young. While I find assembly a focus, I would not be the guy to address a wide range of processors. I initially set out targeting the NEC 186 V-chip. Even now, I find the Next186 pretty tempting. So I might get to learn all about these differences you've mentioned.

Thanks, for sharing some of your history. I enjoyed it.

 

[Nero 7 install on 98SE]

23 hours ago, ABCDEFG said:

Nero 7 works even on 98 FE

Your O.S. of choice?

[Raw Hard Disk image or VHD mounting?]

I'm a bit late, back to the thread. I watch an elderly woman, about every other week. When I am there, I don't do tech. Simply because, I get too drawn in. Sometimes, she only gives subtle hints of her needs.

On 2/23/2023 at 1:00 AM, jumper said:

I've been using RamDisk98 for decades. Versions up through about 3 included source code, but I've never been able to locate any of those.

Great tip!

I (too?) will look into the various sources mentioned. Old stuff is getting hard to find, but I'll try hunting for Ramdisk98 source.

I'm not entirely opposed to buying a copy of Walter Oney's book/CD (about $6). There are a couple of other books, along the same line, I am looking to snag anyway.

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Don't know why I said that.

Maybe it was in the Nero installer?

 

22 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Well, it is a direction. Static builds are the very portable, within a O.S. type. I can use new static GO builds, in old Linux distributions. With GCC C/C++, it would often require that the Linux kernel and Glibc be more up-to-date. And with win32, it will also depend on what libraries you build on. But you already knew that part.

There are other options, too.

BlackBox Component Builder, provides something similar(ish) to Java/VB. You can run it on different OS versions and Platforms. I would think the overhead would less, then say Java. However, it has a less mature availability of libraries. But it offers rapid-application-development.

There are some different "Small Talk (modern example)", rapid-application-development, projects. But I'm not sure if there is one, that bridges between many systems.

I mentioned "FreePascal/Lazarus", as there has been some work on win16 and Dos compatibility. Win9x has been depreciated. But, if there was enough interest, it could be re-ignited. If Win9x was brought, more into vogue, it would make FreePascal more interesting. Lazarus, is the rapid-application-development side of things. If Win9x support was re-upped, in FreePascal, Lazarus     would also need updated. But there are alternative environments, to Lazarus, for FreePascal. They rely on the leaner Win/GDI and *nix/X11. MseGUI/IDE and fpGUI are the notable ones.

Note: It might be more likely, that the alternative GUI environments, would consider support for older systems. While they have a smaller development crew, they also have less dependency entanglement. It is also noteworthy, that they could just build in support for older versions of FreePascal; the ones that support Win9x. One could use older versions of FreePascal/development environments, and then minimally port their own code to the new compilers. Also, many older compilers support newer systems.

 For the masochists, like me, there is FASM. It can have good O.S. portability. But is harder to bridge between architecture types. Writing something "like a modern web browser" in this, would be daunting. But, no doubt, many people would praise your skill/insanity. Fresh IDE, is a rapid-application-development environment for FASM. You can imagine, that work on this takes time. But the project could provide useful, if you are looking to use assembly.

More specific to web-browsing, there was an interesting project called "Hv3". It has 12/13 years, since it was last developed. But, might provide interesting study, for someone looking to build a web browser. This one would be "somewhat" useful, as is, if it just had modern encryption support.

But Fifth, is more relevant. It is FLTK3/Webkitfltk based. Obviously, this would require some Win9x back-porting. But it might be less dependency bound, than other options. The least compatible GCC compiler is 4.7.3. That means there is "potential" for MinGW/TDM and Win9x. I am "near" ready, on my own "Win9x" production environment. Hence, less knowledgeable regarding Win9x development. I'm only partially focused there, anyway.

Please forgive, I'm having a histamine attack today (Mast Cell Activation Syndrome). Concentration is harder. If my reply is confusing, it is probably due to my brain fog.

[Nero 7 install on 98SE]

21 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Nero 7 is installed just the way I wanted it.

Excellent.

[Raw Hard Disk image or VHD mounting?]

8 hours ago, jaclaz said:

Sure, grub4dos mapping is the easiest/most convenient, though of course it has the limitation of needing to either reboot or know before booting that you will need to mount the image.

Actually, this is the reason for the OP. I'm kinda spoiled, and don't want to reboot.

8 hours ago, jaclaz said:

I don't think that anyone is going (today) to attempt writing a driver/program for DOS/Win9x of such complexity.

Depending on how much was already present, in Walter Onely's book, I had thought about it. I like systems programming; just maybe not Windows 95/98 systems programming (or any modern system). Time is always an issue. In spare time, if it took half a year, I would probably not have ambition for it. A couple months, of poking around to completion, and yeah. But anything more than that, and I'd rather work on a project that solved more problems. That's for another post.

8 hours ago, jaclaz said:

may create something (for DOS/FreeDOS)

:) Yes, that has crossed my mind.

I did end up getting RamDrive98 to mount/unmount, without a reboot. The project, I am working on now, can use "Fat16"; requiring, a maximum of, half a Gigabyte. So this will work, for now. The main issue has been file permissions. Many alternatives would require  manually setting file permissions, after injecting files into the image. And there are a number of files, where the permissions are important.

I really doubt anyone will follow, using this method. But the Internet is big. If you do, pay close attention to the data, "right" after the end of the partition's first sector. Those few blocks may not match, between the two. You can probably leave them, as they are, for each image. In the raw disk image, search for "fat16"; also sector 63, depending on your editor. The size of the partitions need to match. This limits the usefulness. As I am creating the raw image " blank", this works fine for me. I can just match RamDrive98's partition size, by messing around with Qemu's "qemu-img.exe".

[what is the best Unofficial Windows 98SE SP3?]

Some people have reported problems with 3.66, on virtual machines. When I tested it "Win old app" needed to be killed, in "Task Manager", to continue from an installation stall. The installation continued, but I never investigated for install errors.

Some have said 3.65 didn't have the issue. Some said 3.66 worked fine, after using 3.65.

You can read all about it, starting in the last handful of pages.

You can extract the update contents, and read the install scripts. Seems like the installation is the problem, not the content. You could just install things a piece at a time, when possible. Then when/if something goes wrong, you can read the script and do it manually.

But it really depends on what you need the update(s) for. For example, if you are trying to resolve a specific issue.

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

3 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Is it a programming language?

Yes. Here it is. You can make static builds with other languages. It can be a pain. But I've found Go impressive.

I don't remember were, and a quick search didn't turn it up, but I think someone ported Go to dos once (protected/extended mode).

3 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

That's what happened the first time I brought it into HxD

Hm? I used Ghex2 and couldn't find the string GET_UPDATE.

[Nero 7 install on 98SE]

SoftICE comes to mind. The Bochs Emulator. IDA(pro).

[Raw Hard Disk image or VHD mounting?]

@jaclaz Thanks for the tip!

I have something working. But it isn't ideal, or a solution for large hard disk images.

I downloaded RamDisk98, from one of the many Simtel FTP clones.

If my disk image has the same partition size, as the RamDisk98 saved partition image, I can use HxD to copy the data between the two.

So the image size is limited by the amount of free ram you have. You need enough ram, left over, for HxD's copying in order to paste. So it's better to save the ram image, then operate "afterwards" without the ram disk.

For me, the ram disk does not start and stop, as described in the readme. Edit: now works

Mapping a disk image, with Grub4Dos, is still easier.

I'll install Paragon's Harddisk Manager 6, to see it I can do something similar with the included Image Mounter. They have a header, on there created disk images. As long as the image is not compressed or encrypted, it saves it raw. But this would only work for people with this software.

Update: Image mounter couldn't unmount Paragon's own images correctly; the changes were not saved. It seems like a Win98 compatibility issue. Otherwise, it seems as if it would have worked. Mounted images, that had been modified by raw disk image partition data, displayed contents of the original raw partition.

Alternatively, the "README.TXT" included with RamDisk98 say:

Quote

The RAM disk driver core in RamDisk98 is based upon the source code provided
with Walter Oney's excellent book Systems Programming for Windows 95 from
Microsoft Press. What I did was to pick up where he left off by trying to improve the
boot sector initialization of the disk (and fix a few of Walter's bugs) to properly emulate
a hard disk or a 1.44MB or 2.88MB floppy drive. I also added the registry interface
and disk image load and save, as well as the shareware splash screen and configuration
utility.

  If there is enough usable code, in there, maybe something could be (re)written for a ram or file image.

[Windows 95 Gradient Title Bars (OSR2)]

Read about this a while back, regarding beta releases. Nice to see 95 still getting some play. One day, 95 may even see USB2.0 support.

[Raw Hard Disk image or VHD mounting?]

Anyone know if there is a drive/application that can do this? I'm looking to mount it as a device letter.

I know Qemu can run with a disk image, while you copy files over a shared FTP folder.

Also, DosBox can mount a hard disk image, and a shared folder as a virtual drive. Files could be copied that way.

WinImage allows inserting and extracting files, from a disk image.

I could also use Grub4Dos and mount the image as a secondary drive.

Is there a better "native" way?

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

I didn't mean written in Java.

Don't mind me, I'm just jesting about extremes.

I have a fondness for static (or near static) applications. That is one of the things making "GO" (static friendly) an interesting programing language. Or tools like FreePascal/Lazarus (very portable) appealing.

Sometimes, in some tech corners, you get criticized for reinventing the wheel. But back in the Dos days, static building was much more normal. Then again, Dos didn't provide you much to build off of. There wasn't a library folder anywhere. Not that you couldn't do that.

But if you built things with less dependencies, especially O.S. dependencies, it would be harder to control the product life cycle.

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

HxD is a hex editor

Just did a post mentioning it. Great tool.

 

2 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

I think I can use my disk editor to change the value of that variable to zero

Absolutely, you can. Some installers hash themselves, checking for changes. But I doubt that is the case here.

[Nero 7 install on 98SE]

3 minutes ago, justacruzr2 said:

I guess the only way to test that suspicion is to uninstall it.

Probably the easiest way :)

With some guru tools, you could watch how everything interacts during execution. Depending on the day, that might be a bit too far :)

Like running the system in a VM, stepping through and noting every interation/opcode.

Would be interesting, if it was Norton Utilities.

[Win9x (or Dos) installing Grub2 bootloader]

First off, this is not a post about writing a grub.cfg file, or booting Win9x using Grub2. I don't mind if it turns into that. But "initially" this is just about installing grub, from Win9x. And it is only in regards to BIOS booting systems.

Grub2 has installation files, for Windows. They will run under win9x, but only seem to accept NT physical drive designations. That can make installing it a little rough. Maybe there is some option included, that provides the needed functionality. But it wasn't in the user manual, nor did anything turn up online.

There are many bootloaders and Grub2 forks out there. It might be possible to use one of those, quite easily, using only Win9x. I use Grub2/Grub4Dos/Syslinux, individually and in combination, all the time. There are just times, when Grub2 works well for me. So don't read this as a "You should use Grub2" post. It isn't always the most flexible bootloader, when you are working with Win9x.

If you are familiar with Linux, or you have a Window NT variant, you probably don't need this information. This is for the real masochists out their, that want to do everything within their Win9x domain.

Also, if you haven't messed with a hex editor, or your systems is to important to risk its functionality, you probably shouldn't mess with this.

Disclosure: There may be a different, and perhaps official, way of doing this. I just gave up looking. Turns out, installing it "this way" is easier then writing the grub.cfg file by hand; which you would also need to do.

First you need to download Grub2 for Windows. Then you need a handy "Disk Viewing" hex editor (maybe). I used the HxD hex editor.

There are Two ways you can go about this.

-If you already have a bootloader, you might just want to chainload Grub2. This would not require a hex editor; so you can leave manually editing you harddrive alone.

-If Grub2 will be your main bootloader, then you will need to chisel and hammer some.

No matter which way you go, you need the Grub core.img file. So lets build one.

Once you have your Grub download unzipped, you'll see a bunch of "EXE" files. You can get rid of all but maybe one or two. For certain you need "grub-mkimage.exe". But if you already have a "syslinux.cfg" file, you can play with "grub-syslinux2cfg.exe". I won't be doing anything with that, here.

There are also a couple of folders you can get rid of. Both "i386-efi" and "x86_64-efi" are not needed.

Now, in this same folder, you want to run this command:

grub-mkimage.exe --output=./core.img --format=i386-pc --prefix=(hd0,msdos1)/boot/grub biosdisk part_msdos fat

Note: This command can also be ran in real Dos, but you need "long file name" support and "HxDos" extender loaded.

Now "(hd0,msdos1)/boot/grub" represents the location of the folder you just ran that command in. So you will want to rename it "grub", and then create a folder "C:\boot" to move it to. But you will have to adjust things, if you want to have this folder somewhere other then "C:". If it is on a USB drive, (hd0,msdos1) is still fine. When booting from it, BIOS sees it as the first disk. If you are chainloading, then just use "/boot/grub".

So in hdx, x equals the physical disk the grub folder is on. In msdosx, x equals the partition it is on.

If you want to have it on a partition that isn't "Fat16/32", then you would want to change out "fat" for the correct partition type. For example ntfs, ext2, exfat, jfs, etc. "Ext2" also handles "Ext3". These names correspond to modules in the "/boot/grub/i386-pc" folder. So if there isn't a .mod file for the partition type you need, then it isn't supported. You don't need support for all of these partition types, in core.img. You just need the one for the partition that "/boot/grub" is on. Once Grub boots, and locates that folder, it can access the other mod files.

Now, if you want to chainload Grub, then you need one more thing added to "core.img".

Inside the Grub folder, you would run:

copy /b i386-pc\lnxboot.img + core.img boot.img

If you are chainloading, you could delete core.img and/or rename boot.img to core.img. It doesn't really matter what it is called.

That is pretty much it, for the chainloaders. Just create your grub.cfg file, in "/boot/grub", and point your other bootloader at "boot.img".

But you real masochists, keep on.

If you are going to format the entire drive, you can copy the whole Grub "MBR" over before hand. But if you already have "needed" information/partitions on the disk, then you'll need to take more care. And you can throw in the towel right now, if don't have 28KBs free, after then end of your first sector. A standard MsDos MBR should be fine. Modern Linux made partition have even more space in there.

Okay, so now you will need to start your hex editor, and open your target disk. Then open the file "\boot\grub\i386-pc\boot.img". Like I mentioned earlier, if you plan to format the entire drive, just copy the entire contents of "boot.img" and paste it on your drive; starting at 0x0. But if you already have data/partitions you want to preserve, then you may want to copy the whole fist sector of you disk; and save it somewhere other than this disk. Then you will only want to copy "boot.img" from 0x0 to the end of 01A3 (01A0x3). Now paste that to your drive at 0x0.

Note: If things don't work out, you can copy/paste over your "saved" original first sector.

Finally, if you have enough room for it, you can open/copy the entire "core.img", and paste it at the very beginning of your drives second sector.

That should be it. Now with a good grub.cfg file in "\boot\grub" you should be all set.

If you are unsure about any of this, maybe try it on an empty "USB" pendrive.

[j2se runtime environment 5.0 update 22]

5 hours ago, justacruzr2 said:

Who knows.  Maybe some ambitious programmer will have mercy on us.

If you go far enough, then you'd have to deal with all the different hardware variations. The JAVA, write once and run everywhere, idea was cool. But I'd hate to use a modern web browser, written in JAVA.

Eventually, most people's idea of an OS will interface through a scripted client/server GUI environment. Our devices will be nothing but kiosks. Getting a new OS, will be upgrading your "OS as a Service" package.

So, ironically, well be hoping our kiosk-ish devices are compatible with the service. A reversal. Needing the right browser, to access your OS; rather then the right OS to use access your browser.

Note: A kiosk does have an OS. But in this situation, its more akin to soft firmware.

This is the only way a Metaverse could work. You can't fluidly go from device to device, each one loading everything up. Nor would you want to walk around, with augmented glasses etc., connected to some large GPU/CPU and storage media. From your bathroom > living room > sidewalk > car, the stream is just re-initiated where you left off. Until B.C.I.s become popular. Then it would be just one stream, that follows you around.

I'm not looking forward to it, but one day it will be difficult connecting these devices/OSs to the Internet. Perhaps illegal. A device with user guided processing, on this side of the cloud, may be considered insecure. You can imagine, it would much easier to secure the Internet/Metaverse "from bad actors" if everyone only has direct access to the input side of things. We are nearing that, with smart phones. They are powerful computers, with well curated portals to apply that power.

The browsers we know, will be (are being) reinvented between retro group hobbyists. Kinda like how the 8/16bit retro scene still comes out with new browsers. Hackaday has a retro webpage, for old machines on the Internet. That's gonna be us one day :) Sooner, if you've went to check that link, in your Win9x browser.