NoelC

This page, near the bottom, gives a bit of insight as to the post 10586 patches... http://www.infoworld.com/article/3012221/microsoft-windows/mysterious-new-windows-10-version-1511-patch-kb-3122947-fails-to-install-with-error-0x80070643.html Things seemed rational until after cumulative Update 4, KB3116908. Last night I installed KB3122947 (which took doing what the above-linked article suggested to get done successfully), and lo and behold I'm still showing 10586.17. Things are out of control to say the least. I liked Woody's last line in that article. -Noel

Not mine. Not any more. Think of it this way if the decision to divorce from Windows Update is difficult for you: "Do I want the same people who programmed Win 10 reprogramming my Win 8.1 / 7? And even if I WERE to respect their technical capability, do I trust these people, given recent observed behavior, to change the programming in my system in any way that they choose?" -Noel

I suggest you look inward my friend, to see why some folks think very little of you and your posts. It's not them. You have a way of wording things that insults those you try to interact with. My suggestion: Try humility. Start with the assumption that you are not smarter, better, nor more experienced than anyone here. Understand that respect has to be earned. Otherwise you're going to continue to be just so much noise between interesting posts (not to mention drawing responses out of irritation). A question for submix8c and others here (MaxXPsoft, I think I already know your perspective)... How much of Win 10's "App" environment are you really interested in using? Inasmuch as we can change anything we want on our computers (at least for now), Win 10 can be deprovisioned and deconfigured so that it is a desktop-only animal, but that's clearly paddling against Microsoft's current. This is clearly evidenced by Microsoft's having restored all the Apps with the 10586 in-place installation. Since Win 10 doesn't bring anything to the party - AT ALL - beyond what I guess they consider are improvements to the Metro/Modern/Universal App world, it kind of comes off as a "why bother?" system if you're not interested in that. Honestly, if I want a weather forecast - or a map or most any other information - I use a web browser. I don't see any problem with that nor any advantage in an App version of same. I'm not in the slightest bit interested in games, though I can see how some folks find a diversion occasionally nice, and of course REAL games (i.e., those that require teraflop GPU power) aren't in Apps - at least not yet. Does Windows 10 seem interesting because of something it does? Promises to do? Is it attractive because it does what you want and you'd like Microsoft to take over the entire task of running your system? Are you concerned that if you don't keep current you'll be overrun by malware? Did Microsoft just wear you down with their insistence on delivering Win 10 through Windows Update? Put another way, what is it you want from Windows? On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being desktop ONLY, 10 being Apps ONLY, what is it you expect / want to do with Windows 10? With me it's 1 - strictly desktop. When I tried Apps I found them irritatingly poorly constructed, childish, and frankly insulting. They reminded me of programming in Basic in the 1970s. So far, I only find Win 10 interesting (to run in a VM) because it allows me to keep up with what Microsoft is doing - which is disturbing on many levels. -Noel

LOL. You dig yourself into a deeper hole every time you post. -Noel

The only reason for setting an "expando" page file size (i.e., where minimum and maximum are not the same) would be if you feel you really, really need the disk space and you don't want to do without the preallocated space. Windows will thus allocate *just* enough for your maximum needs over time. That whole idea implies disk storage has been underprovisioned to start with - that's never good. I suggest ALWAYS overprovisioning your system disk space if you'd like to use your computer for a long time without problems. Whatever disk you think you'll need, double it at least. -Noel

Right, that must be what motivates me. It couldn't be actual experience, knowledge, or insight. This site has, quite wonderfully, a large collection of people on whom BS doesn't work. Adult people, and even young ones with uncommon sense. I've been Microsoft's staunchest supporter throughout my near 40 year software engineering career. Ask anyone around here - only a few short years ago I sounded a lot more like you, jmonroe, looking for the good. Unfortunately, there isn't any to be found. I have Windows 10 running like a well-oiled machine and I'll wager I know how to do that as well as or better than you do. Guess what? By ANY objective or subjective measure it's STILL not better than - nor arguably even as good as - its predecessors, which I ALSO have running like well-oiled machines. Stirring up trouble on forums can be fun, just try to stop accusing others, directly or indirectly, of being motivated by something other than reality. Sometimes reality just bites. -Noel

Seems to me a reason could be that the new Metro/Modern/Universal App environment must be both less capable of supporting application complexity and at the same time more difficult to implement a design with. Not exactly enviable attributes for a "whole new paradigm". Can there be another explanation why Microsoft's Apps are so bad? How many YEARS have they been trying? Well, I guess there could be one other explanation: Microsoft's employees might now be no more capable of writing good software than an average high school student. Windows 10 is overpriced. -Noel

I don't post information I haven't personally experienced and verified myself. The things I described happened to my system. And not because of anything I've done wrong. It's not venting and it's not made up when it actually happens. It's FACT, pal. You need to understand that you're conversing with people who may just know more than you do about Windows. Don't look now but reinstalling and re-enabling cloud software that's been removed - e.g., OneDrive - that actively seeks to transfer your data to online servers is far more an attempt to breach privacy than "accidentally" reverting a few settings. If you think Microsoft actually reverted those privacy settings by accident then you're deluded. They know exactly what they're doing and they continually test the waters to see what they can get away with. Their mission is to redefine what people will accept. Your sig implies you're aware that social / peer pressure changes people's opinions, yet somehow you can't (or refuse to) see the reality of what's going on yourself. -Noel

Trouble upgrading a system that previously supported the OS is known in polite circles as... Epic Failure Unfortunately, I'm way past being polite about the dogs*** that Microsoft is trying to smear all over us. -Noel

Keep in mind hosts does not do partial domain matching (as far as I know). From my current hosts file, compiled from online sources 3 days ago: Microsoft Windows [Version 6.3.9600] © 2013 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. C:\TEMP>fgrep -i facebook c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts. 0.0.0.0 www.facebook.com 0.0.0.0 connect.facebook.net 0.0.0.0 graph.facebook.com 0.0.0.0 15817.facebook.profilephdid.com 0.0.0.0 7765817.facebook.profilephdid.com 0.0.0.0 applications.facebook.com.install.55211987.4lgeri.com 0.0.0.0 creative.ak.facebook.com 0.0.0.0 facebook.com.accounts.logins.userids.349574.23ud82.com 0.0.0.0 facebook.com.accounts.logins.userids.355111.23ud82.com 0.0.0.0 facebook.com.linkedstate.in 0.0.0.0 facebook.khmerinform.com 0.0.0.0 facebookanh.muzik123.net 0.0.0.0 facebookgameappg.co.vu 0.0.0.0 facebookinc.122.2o7.net 0.0.0.0 facebookside.wapka.mobi 0.0.0.0 facebookum.com 0.0.0.0 facebookvivn.com 0.0.0.0 freefacebookhacking.com 0.0.0.0 hackfacebookprofiles.com 0.0.0.0 mfacebooks.com 0.0.0.0 oyunlarfacebook.somee.com 0.0.0.0 pixel.facebook.com 0.0.0.0 socialfacebook.com 0.0.0.0 th-facebook.blogspot.ca 0.0.0.0 www.facebook-pictures.com -Noel

Apparently Microsoft's "wear the users down" strategy is working. It's not surprising. According to StatCounter.com, Windows 10 adoption continues to rise. There is no evidence of a "roll off" in usage. The curves are more or less linear, and imply Windows 10 will become the dominant operating system by some time in 2017. Windows 7 usage continues to fall (though, surprisingly, 8.0 and 8.1 are holding a bit more level than 7). Clearly, no matter how much we try to educate the world, there's really nothing we can do about this. OSX usage is rising, but you can be sure Apple will stumble at some point. They always do. Individually the smart folks amongst us can shun the new Windows 10 system for now, sure, but that's not going to keep. End users - even those with literally YEARS of experience with Windows, and who use Windows at work, are being herded right along, and we're going to find ourselves in an era where Windows 10 is the dominant operating system. Projecting the curves forward, and barring unforeseen developments (like the Justice Department shutting Microsoft down or a new OS company emerging from the woodwork), my extrapolations: This is a bit like predicting where hurricanes will go. Perhaps I should have included error cones... -Noel

The question is asked a bit too simply, but in general yes - Windows 8 and newer will not run an App (except certain system functions, like Settings) with EnableLUA set to 0. It does appear that quite a bit of background activity still occurs with UAC off, though. I've actually had to uninstall and deprovision Apps to get that stuff to stop. Whether I would in general advise disabling UAC on another user's system, where I don't have good knowledge of the user's level or expertise, and without having set up a much more effective overall security strategy... I don't think I would. -Noel

I never had much respect for Ballmer, but apparently - given the above statement - he wasn't actually in charge. THAT is probably the problem right there. The guy who's supposed to be in charge isn't. -Noel

Absolutely true. I have changed my stance in recent weeks. I believe I have grown, and I believe you'll see the light before long. All the things wrong with the 10586 in-place upgrade, watching carefully what Windows tries to do online despite our best efforts, plus a few too many times seeing Belfiore and Meyerson and Nadella talk have opened my eyes. Microsoft has proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they have lost the ability to program a proper operating system, and are no longer worthy of partnership. The trial is over; it's time for sentencing: Life without the possibility of Windows Update. I care about my data. Microsoft now not only doesn't care, they're actively trying to take it and destroy it. If they were to come into my house in person and try to do what they are attempting electronically, I would shoot them. Speer Gold Dot, ++P. Here we sit, finally having achieved supercomputing on our desktops, and Microsoft is throwing it all away. Programming stupid little games in Basic and seeing things move around on a screen in the 1970s was fun. I have had better things to do for quite a while now. Microsoft: Shove your XAML where the sun don't shine. I feel like Darth Vader returning to the persona of Anakin Skywalker after tossing the Emperor over the abyss. -Noel

We understand one another. I'm just pointing out that it's become clear to me that they ALL obviously need to be avoided. You're still exhibiting a certain amount of trust toward Microsoft. I no longer see anything to justify that. Sooner or later they'll slip in some GWX code, call it a "security update" and later maybe say, "oops, sorry". Or maybe just make older systems start to run like crap and not say anything at all. Trust is something earned over a lifetime and lost very quickly. They've had since the first betas of Windows 8 to start to regain it, and guess what? Fail has turned into epic fail instead. -Noel

I think Kelsenellenelvian has it right - let them know your reasoning. Let them know you've done all kinds of research and have found that more and more folks believe today's Microsoft isn't the Microsoft of a past lifetime and can no longer be trusted. Let them know that Microsoft is less apt to respect your privacy than at any time in history. Then let them make their own decision. Maybe they'd actually like to run Windows 10. If so, use the expertise you've learned here to set it up in the most reasonable way possible. Holding back and staying on an older OS isn't really going to be a viable permanent / long-term strategy. There's going to come a time when something your spouse/SO wants (or maybe even YOU want) that can't be had without the latest Windows - or the latest something. Or your computer just burns out and you have to get a new one that won't even run the old OS. Perhaps in another few "major" releases Microsoft will start to mold Windows 10 into a system worth having again, and maybe they'll even realize that the cycle needs to go back to a few years between major releases. Perhaps holding back is just temporary. The only difference is now Microsoft can't be trusted to deliver Windows Updates worth having any more on the older system. -Noel

IF at this point you have decided to keep Windows 8.1 or older until YOU choose to make a change, ask yourself - as I have - whether ANY Microsoft-generated updates at this point forward are worth having. They continue to advance their aggressiveness in using Windows Update to deliver things those "reluctant to switch" don't want. They are no longer capable of writing serious operating system software (just look at Windows 10). Do you trust them to change the code in your WIndows 8 or older system? They have switched to a "let the public test our changes" model, AND they don't benefit from keeping your Windows 8 and older system running smoothly, so do you have confidence that their changes will be sound when they are installed? If you have a decent security strategy (including having a router between you and the incoming connection requests of the wild internet), you need not be overly worried about the "OMG, you have to have the latest Windows Updates in order to remain safe" BS hype. The simplest/quickest single way to stop Microsoft's incessant attempts to drop-load potentially defective software into your existing system is to Disable the Windows Update service (e.g., using the Services.msc snap-in). This seems like a radical idea, but I've chosen this path late this year and so far I have no complaints. What I *DO* have is a system that runs stably and doesn't nag me to downgrade to a lesser operating system. -Noel

You do know that certain system operations are dependent on it, though right? For example, WinSAT results determine what kind of background defrag / SSD maintenance the system does. -Noel

I put Win 10 on a Haswell hardware system too, and was able to do a direct comparison with a fresh Win 7 install on it. Win 10 wasn't faster on the hardware either. The GPU in that system is the embedded Intel on the Pentium G3220. Note this 2D graphics comparison. 2D graphics is essentially a measurement of desktop operations responsiveness. 2D Graphics: That was build 10240. I need to do the same after moving the secondary boot on that machine up to 10586, after which I'll post some updated benchmarks and measurements of actual operations. -Noel

From what I have measured desktop operations benchmark out a little slower. Could be a particular display driver that works well for you on your hardware, as compared to a prior version. I am always interested whenever I hear someone say the new system is faster, because on several systems I've tested it really hasn't been, except 3D rendering tests a bit quicker - probably because Microsoft is more heavily oriented to gaming now. That being said, Direct2D is quite a bit less efficient than on Win 7. Personally I find that there are occasional unexpected small delays when doing desktop things. I'm accustomed to things always happening immediately, so Win 10 feels more distracted somehow - even with everything trimmed to a minimum. -Noel

Oh, I agree. Whatever management could decide that a system REQUIRES UAC to run is proving in that ONE DECISION that they are not capable of creating a serious operating system. I personally believe Metro/Modern/Universal/Apps will fail, just like all other such past initiatives at Microsoft. Then there will be a "return to traditional strengths" period. But will it be too late for Microsoft as a company by then? Time will tell. -Noel

I only run it in a VM to make sure I know it inside and out. And as you're probably aware, I've not been too impressed by what I see. I'm a reasonably knowledgeable computer geek. Most folks probably don't have the experience or insights I have and I imagine they feel either they have to keep up with what Microsoft wants them to be doing or they'll fall out of date and ultimately end up in a "can't work" scenario. How many people, for example, know enough to decide when (not to mention how) to stop allowing Windows Updates? If you allow them to continue then Microsoft continues to load it's garbage into your older system and you end up with something that ultimately either doesn't work or practically morphs into Windows 10 anyway. Not to mention that sooner or later most will get tripped up (or worn down) by the reappearing "Get Windows 10!" updates. It takes all my skills and even then a little luck to continue to run my Windows 7 and 8.1 systems for the time being, instead of taking the "free upgrade to Windows 10" path. When these truly become unmanageable - probably in 5 years or less - I'll probably switch to the Linux realm. Change is inevitable. -Noel

I'm still surprised that people don't all know about this. It's quite likely the most important and disruptive policy change they've made. There's some deep "eyes glaze over" tech info on their strategy here: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt598226(v=vs.85).aspx -Noel

It may seem/feel faster, but I suspect you're comparing your used-for-a-while Windows 7 system against the fresh install of Windows 10. You quite likely know very well that humans are terrible at judging speed and timing subjectively. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think Windows 10 is faster, more power to you. I'll concede that Win 10's boot time is slightly faster even without the hybrid/fast boot baloney enabled (I do hope you're not using that). But the difference is literally only a few seconds on a reasonable machine. The swirly things don't even finish coming together in the flag on my Haswell (Pentium G3220) Win 7 system before it presents the logon prompt. -Noel

I didn't go over your list in any great detail, but one thing did stand out: Why disable WinSAT? -Noel