Mathwiz

I know it's already been (sort of) answered, but let me add: (a) The UXP engine underlying MailNews changes just about every week, so every time UXP is updated, it's possible to build a new version of MailNews. TBH, most changes don't really affect MailNews (e.g., email doesn't use JavaScript, so JavaScript enhancements don't improve MailNews), which is, I assume, why BOC hasn't updated in a while. This week's build contains a change that does affect MailNews: an enhancement allowing OAuth2 to be used with email addresses that are actually GMail "in disguise." (I used to have such an email address.) (b) There might be other differences, but the only one I've noticed so far is that IceDove lacks OAuth2 as an authentication option; I'm guessing because OAuth2 was added to UXP after Hyperbola stopped IceDove development. So the OAuth2 code is "in" UXP but can't be accessed from IceDove. (c) The former: IceApe is Hyperbola's reworking of SeaMonkey on UXP, further reworked by @roytam1 for compatibility with older Windows versions, and to include the latest UXP enhancements.

I would think those plus IceApe. Edit: and BNavigator.

OK, from the first link, it appears athenian200 is creating another UXP-based email client, currently called Epyrus, and wants to implement not only OAuth2, but also full M$ Exchange support. Ambitious, but if successful (or even if only the OAuth2 part is successful), it could (hopefully) be ported to XP as with MailNews and IceDove. And the second might help me, even though I'm not on Gmail, because my work email domain isn't at office365.com. Possibly part of the reason why MailNews didn't work for me. This is a UXP PR so it should find its way into MailNews as well as Epyrus. Edit: Unfortunately, no joy for me; even after the fix, MailNews still wrongly claims outlook.office365.com does not support OAuth2.

Unicode property escapes look like an example of a Googlism that's useful: they were proposed by Google; nevertheless, they do something that's not easy to accomplish without the feature. So I sort of understand why gorhill might have started using them. Ironically, Serpent now understands Unicode property escapes - it appears we got that feature at the same time as named regexp capture groups. But of course Serpent (even Serpent 55) lacks many WE APIs, so gorhill's WE-based uBO wouldn't work anyway.

That would break the digital signature though. Does FF 78 still have a way to allow unsigned add-ons? I thought Mozilla phased out that option somewhere in the 50's.

So, on Android, Firefox 79 is required, but on desktop, FF 78 is required - I assume both Firefoxes use the same GUID so you can't set different minimum versions for each.... This one actually sounds like a Mozilla mistake to me. But the more interesting question to me is, why is FF 78/79 suddenly required at all, when 68 was adequate before? What new uBO feature required a 10-version jump just to keep blocking unwanted sites/scripts/CSS? This doesn't seem like a mere matter of not testing older browsers; I think it more likely the latest uBO uses a Googlism. Googlism: (noun) Any JavaScript or CSS feature which was proposed by Google, Inc., and which causes browsers unaware of the feature to render Web sites using it, or to execute add-ons using it, incorrectly. (Note that Googlisms aren't necessarily all bad things; but they do, by this definition, necessarily have one bad effect: breaking older browsers.)

Yes I saw your post at @roytam1's browser thread. As long as MailNews works well with all your email services, there's no reason to try to troubleshoot what might have gone wrong with IceDove, eM Client, or what have you! Stick with what works. MailNews also supports several useful add-ons, although editing install.rdf may be necessary to install them. A lot of email services have gone to OAuth2, but most at least offer the alternative of app passwords. I just happened to get put on the one service - M$ 365 - that decided against app passwords, so the browser interface - slow and cumbersome as it may be - is the only choice I have left on XP (aside from OE Classic and its numerous issues).

360EE versions 13 and 13.5 are based on Chrome 86, and MiniBrowser on Chrome 87. Those should work at least until Spectrum gets around to implementing Googlisms even newer than those Chrome versions. After that, all bets are off - Serpent / New Moon may once again become the preferred choice, at least as long as they're being maintained. 360EE is more "advanced" at the moment, but it doesn't seem likely we'll ever see newer Chrome versions backported to XP.

Do Help / About Serpent. The version released on 2/11 is dated 2/9. The one released 2/4 is dated 2/2. Apparently a day or two elapses between build and release.

Last month I mentioned that developer website Proofhub.com (not to be confused with Pornhub) had quit working with Serpent as of the 12/24 update. I'm happy to report that the 2/9 update does work with Proofhub. I didn't try to find out which version fixed the breakage, but in any case, the breakage was only temporary. Or eclipse.cx did. Yes, Spectrum hasn't worked in some time. I always have to fall back to 360EE to access their site. (Although for bill payment, I rely on an amazing service called the "US Postal Service." It does cost me an extra $0.60 and a trip down my front sidewalk each month, though.) At any rate, if official PM running on a supported OS (Win 7+) doesn't work, you should report the issue to them. Just don't mention "New Moon" or "XP." Keep in mind there may not be much they can do, though; a lot of these breakages relate to recent changes to CSS or JavaScript that are often very hard to implement in older browser platforms like UXP.

If it only had one or two of the numerous bugs/issues I mentioned at the start of this thread, I'd encourage you to pay the $37 US for the "pro" version. But with all the bugs, it's just too frustrating to use. Don't waste your money the way I did. The IceDove UI doesn't let you choose OAuth2, even though per @roytam1 the code is "in there." MailNews does let you choose OAuth2. But with 365, its OAuth2 option didn't open my Web browser to a Micro$oft sign-in link as it should. OE Classic (on XP) and eM Client (on Win 7) both did, and I was able to sign in and grant them permission to access my 365 account. I'm quite surprised you couldn't use an app password with IceDove though. An app password is supposed to use "old-style" authentication that should work with IceDove, or any other older email client like Windows Live Mail.

I installed this version on Win 7. The only problem I had with eM Client was that I couldn't set up a second account (free version allows 2) that was to be a simple POP account. It kept trying to do "auto-detection" even though I was trying to specify everything manually, so it kept screwing up the configuration. (I wonder if that's what happened when you tried to set up web.de on XP?) So I couldn't use it for that account. It works fine with Micro$oft 365 email though. It's more than just an email client. It looks almost exactly like the 365 Web interface! It seems to incorporate much of the functionality of Micro$oft Outlook, including a calendar with appointment reminders. And that's the free version! I wasn't actually looking for something that sophisticated, but since I don't have a working copy of Outlook for Windows 7 (Outlook 365 naturally requires Win 10), at least this client can take Outlook's place. For XP, I've pretty much decided the best email client for 365 is a Web browser. Serpent 55 works, but the JavaScript engine is rather slow, so Chrome-based browsers like MiniBrowser are probably a better choice at the moment.

For Micro$oft 365 mail, OE Classic works; it just has a lot of frustrating issues. And to be fair, DreamMail Pro will probably work if you can get the administrator of your email account to allow it. The other XP option that is known to work is 365's Web interface: https://outlook.office.com/mail. Win 7 would probably be an easier target. OAuth2 was starting to become a "thing" in 2019. Few developers were targeting XP or Vista by then, but Win 7 was still officially supported. I found one more that might work. Unfortunately, it's feature-limited (like OE Classic) and the "Pro" version is quite expensive for a single copy ($59.95 USD), although the price per copy goes down quite a bit if you're a company buying multiple copies. It's actually for Win 7 but they say there's an XP version available upon request:

By the way, in defense of those who don't click through on every link posted in this thread.... One of my pet peeves is people who write posts with little or nothing besides a link. (Not saying that was done in this case; just making a general point.) The point of linking (indeed, the World Wide Web itself) is to provide further information for those who need or want more detail. Obviously it's a judgement call, but try not to let links become a substitute for conveying the basics - put that much info, at least, in your post itself! Of course, if MSFN could "unfurl" links to sites other than MSFN itself, thus providing a preview when warranted, that would help a lot.

Since I don't get over here all that often these days, when I first read "When PH stops working," my first thought was ProofHub, a developer's site I have to use at work - which actually did stop working with the Christmas Eve update! Then I read further, and without clicking on any links except the erroneous Wikipedia article (which didn't make sense - in context, PH was obviously a Web site, not that 0-14 number that tells you how sour or bitter your solution will taste) I remembered the PM forum thread (which I had, indeed, read). Then I wondered, why the abbreviation PH, but not the abbreviation YT? As @VistaLover pointed out, porn is one of the most common uses of the World Wide Web - nothing to be ashamed of! Absolutely true, but not an answer to the question. Nothing @roytam1 is doing is holding MC back. There's no reason for hostility now that MAT has left. Indeed, since @feodor2 has shown (with MyPal 68) that it's possible for the Rust compiler to target XP, there's no reason XP and Vista can't have a version of, say, Waterfox Classic. You know, the browser that supports both legacy and WE add-ons. (That said, I don't know if Waterfox Classic has kept up with all the JavaScript enhancements MCP has incorporated into UXP lately, so UXP may still be the best non-Chrome-based choice for XP/Vista users.) the site opens in 12 seconds versus 16 seconds with a user agent from Firefox 60. There's probably a logical (albeit obscure) reason for this behavior, but if one were a bit paranoid, (s)he might think YouTube was deliberately slowing itself down on non-Chrome-based browsers! (Trying to be careful here to avoid being flamed again)

If you're an individual, the solution sounds simple: just don't use Gmail or other OAuth2-mandating email services like Micro$oft 365. But that can be easier said than done! I remember signing up for Internet service with Clearwire back when they were a thing. Like most ISPs, they gave me a "free" email account. Turned out to be Gmail in disguise! Of course OAuth2 wasn't a thing back then, so it wasn't a big deal - but still, that meant Google's AI was scouring all my email and learning all my likes and dislikes, all without me realizing that I was using "stealth Gmail" for several months.

Uh-Oh I just tried DreamMail Pro on my home system. It did the OAuth2 thing just fine, but when I logged in, Micro$oft gave me this nonsense: I don't think I'm going to get "admin approval" for this. They really want me using Outlook 365 on Windows 10 or 11, and I'm trying to find a way to avoid that!

OK, so Pegasus v4.80 works on XP, but 4.81 beta requires Vista. Well, at least we're getting close! It's pretty unusual to find software that installs on Vista but not XP. Most developers dropped both at the same time and moved up to Win 7. One other product I know that runs on Vista but not XP is Firefox 53. But it can be patched to run on XP with XomPie. Makes me wonder if Pegasus 4.81 can be patched as well. OTOH, maybe they'll fix it for XP. (I'm guessing 4.80 does not do OAuth2.) Of course, that's only half the battle. To work with Micro$oft 365, it needs not only to support OAuth2, but also to be registered with Microsoft 365 as an email client. This is the real show-stopper for XP email clients, which are likely to be individual developers these days (the big corporations having moved on long ago): you have to register your email client with every major email service that has mandated OAuth2: Google, Micro$oft, Yahoo, etc. Edit: Well, it looks like Pegasus 4.81 is a no-go. I tried it on my home machine (Win 7) and it supports OAuth2 for Gmail only. Not Micro$oft 365. Of course, once they have OAuth2 "down pat," they can presumably add other email services. So they may add 365 in 4.82. But until then, it does me no good. BTW, the Pegasus 4.81 installer rebooted my PC with no warning! This is very bad - I could've been in the middle of something important and lost it all! (Of course they say "exit all other apps before installing," but everyone says that, nobody does it, and everybody else gives you a "Restart Later" option.)

I recently needed to find an XP-compatible email client for Micro$oft 365. Initially I asked about it in an odd place, @roytam1's browser thread, for two reasons: In addition to XP-compatible browsers, Roytam1 maintains a couple of XP-compatible email clients: IceDove and MailNews. The folks who follow that thread are very knowledgeable about modern Internet protocols in general. The stumbling block was the need for OAuth2 authentication. With modern email services like Micro$oft 365, you can't just enter your password into your email client anymore. As it happens, MailNews does support OAuth2, but that still wasn't enough. To work with modern email services, your email client now needs to be registered with their servers, something that was never done for MailNews. Luckily, @AstroSkipper pointed me to an XP-compatible email client that is registered with several popular email services including Micro$oft 365: Outlook Express Classic. ... so I went with OE Classic. I've now been using it for about a month. Unfortunately, I'm not particularly happy. OE Classic has several bugs and quirks that are problematic for serious use: My biggest gripe is with the severe limitations of the free version; particularly its insistence on dropping ads for itself into the first pages of all your emails. Thus, you're forced to upgrade to the Pro version for $37 before you can even evaluate it properly. I was able to tell that it did work with Micro$oft 365, but that was about all. (Also, your $37 only entitles you to use the "Pro" features on one machine. I would've expected 3: one each for home, work, and laptop. At a minimum, the software should give you 30 days before the limitations kick in!) So I paid my $37, and at first I was happy; but then I started finding other problems. Every time OE Classic polls the server for new email, it changes the focus to the last email on the list, causing you to have to find and select the email you were reading all over again. And I don't mean it moves to the most recent email; I really mean the last email on the list, however it happens to be sorted at the time. I often sort by sender or subject to find related emails, and if OE Classic polls the server while I have it sorted that way, I find myself looking at the Y's and Z's instead of what I was looking at before! (If I'm reading a specific email, a workaround I found is to open the email I'm reading. The main page will still move to the last email on the list, but the email I'm reading remains open in a separate window. So this isn't a complete show-stopper, but it's still quite annoying.) If a recoverable error occurs while polling the email server, OE Classic's response is to pop up an error window - and then just stop! It won't poll the server any more until you dismiss the window. This can cause you to miss incoming email if it happens while you're doing something else, such as Web browsing. If an unrecoverable error occurs, such as needing to re-authenticate (perhaps because my email password has changed, or just because Micro$oft 365 is being cranky), the only way to re-authenticate is to delete the account and recreate it from scratch! I'm required to change my password every 60 days, so this is really irritating! OE Classic doesn't appear to use multiple processes. This can really slow you down when using the IMAP protocol, especially if you have a lot of folders. It takes quite a while to refresh everything, during which, if you click on an email that needs to be downloaded from the server, you get to stare at a blank email for several seconds until OE Classic finally finishes what it's doing and gets around to downloading the email you clicked on. The "Unread messages" count on each folder doesn't update until you click on the folder to view it! That can cause you to miss emails that get sent to a folder other than the one you're viewing. The "Find" function doesn't work, at least on Windows XP. Perhaps it needs Windows Search installed, which I haven't done, but the original OE and Windows Live Mail had at least some search capability that didn't rely on Windows Search being installed. A more minor bug is, on Windows XP only, icons all have black backgrounds instead of transparent ones. (This didn't seem to be a problem when I tried it on Windows 7 though; only on XP.) If OE Classic just had one or two of these kinds of issues, I'd probably live with it and/or (if the issues were really annoying) get with the developer to see if he could fix them. But there are so many, I decided to start a thread here instead. Is anything else available for Windows XP - or even Vista? I did find one: IncrediMail v2.5. The free version is supposed to be adware, but I don't mind as long as I'm the one who has to look at the ads! Unfortunately the developer pulled the plug on this product a few years ago, so you can't register IncrediMail any more - but the client does work on XP, at least for a while. (I suspect, though, that without being able to register, it won't work forever - does anyone know?) Unfortunately IncrediMail 2.5 predates Micro$oft 365, so I can't use it. I don't know if there's a newer XP-compatible version either. I haven't found a copy to try yet.

It'll be nice to see that red X disappear at long last!

Which means my old iPad Mini 4 is safe! C'mon, Discourse, if you can support that....

It's not just UXP they're targeting either. This undoubtedly exterminates Discourse on MyPal 68 too, since FF didn't implement this particular bit of Googledygook until FF 71. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think FF/MyPal 68 will load "legacy" FF extensions like JustOff's; so MyPal 68 is completely out of luck. At least UXP has a workaround.) What a load of, well, you know. As if they can't even make Discourse work unless they use the latest Googledygook! Explains something I've wondered about from html5test.com: Never could understand how UXP managed to support VP9 but not VP8. Turns out, it does support VP8; it just doesn't "think" it supports VP8!

Believe it or not, I sort of agree. Certainly with the "slow" part. It's especially ironic given that Pale Moon started out as simply Firefox optimized for performance on Windows. I may not like that Mozilla mostly started over with Quantum, but I have to admit that MCP is pushing FF 52's Javascript engine to the limit to get it to handle all the latest "Googlisms." It's surprising that it works as well as it does. From the Web developer's standpoint though, I've written a fair number of very simple Web pages, and I absolutely cannot understand why any Web developer would rely as heavily on JavaScript as most do for tasks the Web server itself would be much more suited to do. It's almost (have to emphasize those disclaimers now, apparently) as if they were trying to make their Web pages as slow and inefficient as possible!

C'mon, guys, get a grip! If you bothered to read my entire post, you should've known I was speaking tongue-in-cheek: @NotHereToPlayGames, you in particular should be ashamed! The whole point of the post was that MCP's so-called "ancient" browser was enhanced so that NextCloud did work - and then a few weeks later, it stopped working again! No, I don't think NextCloud deliberately broke Pale Moon. But the coincidence was so striking, I think one could be excused for being a little suspicious in this case. Not "each and every time a web site is discovered not to work on our 'ancient' browsers" as you wrote. Next time, try to read what I actually wrote, and give me the benefit of the doubt. OK?

Wow, that was quick! This is going to sound paranoid (because it is) but it sounds like the folks at NextCloud discovered - horrors! - that Pale Moon had started working with their Web site and immediately started looking for a new way to break Pale Moon. Can't have non-Google-approved browsers accessing our site - that would be a "security risk!" No, I don't think that's what happened - probably just a coincidence - but given what folks seem to think "security" means nowadays, I can't rule it out....