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ppgrainbow

Windows 3.1 hangs on splash screen

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63+15654785=15654848

974*255*63=15647310

How many sectors are in the volume?

Check the PBR.

jaclaz

 

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Total disk size is not given, see the uploaded picture. EaseUS Partition Master reports last sector = 15654847, so if first sector = 0 total will be 15654848.

PTEDIT_HPUSBFW_v2.06.jpg

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run

WIN :

and look, where problem appear...

 

and dont try use 32BDA on comps newer than 486.

u can use 32BFA (ifshlp.sys) instead, for run net.

but dont try use ifshlp.sys from win4.x (95|98|ME), only from win311fwg.

 

and anyway, better use real, REAL, REAL ms dos 6... verified.

 

or dr dos, pc dos... but NOT freedos nor ms dos 7-8

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Posted (edited)

@Mercury: thanks for all suggestions.

I don't use 32BDA, and since I use Windows 3.1 I don't have 32BFA (WfW only as far as I now, but I would be VERY happy if I'm wrong). I use IFSHLP.SYS only with MSCLIENT on my normal hard disk installation to have internet acces.

I am perfectly happy with MS-DOS 7.1, so I have acces to my other FAT32 drives.

The problem is about booting from an USB flash drive and if boot problems in Enhanced mode are related to the Partition ID.

@Jaclaz: I did a really rude experiment by setting CHS to 1 sector, leaving the LBA values as the HP USB tool decided.

My BIOS booted the 8GB USB flash disk without problems (Scandisk found no errors). :wacko: 

Windows 3.1 showed the "normal" behavior: with Partition Type OC only booting in standard mode, after changing to 0B in Enhanced mode too.

PTEDIT_HPUSBFW_v2.06_CHS=001.jpg

Edited by deomsh
Formatting

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I meant, in that screenshot of PTEDIT, click on Boot Record and check how many sectors are in the volume (not the whole amount on the disk).

jaclaz

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Same value, "14. Big Total Sectors: 15654785  (0x00EEDF81)". Here is the whole story (partinfo > HPUSBFW8.TXT)

 

HPUSBFW8.TXT

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I did some more experiments.

With BIOS "USB legacy support" disabled and booting from a normal floppy disk loaded with a MS-DOS USB driver, there is no problem starting Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode from a 8GB USB flash drive with Partition ID 0C (or from a 4GB one with a 2GB partition with Partition ID 0E).

I had to revert to the original HP USB tool CHS-values (in case of the 8GB USB flash drive). The USB driver gave an error with the one-sector CHS.

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I was puzzled why it was impossible for me, while booting from a floppy drive (loaded with MS-DOS 7.1) and starting Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode from an USB flash drive partitioned as USB-HDD (with BIOS "USB legacy support" enabled of cause). This time the Partition ID of the USB-HDD made NO difference: 06, 0E, 0B or 0C - starting in Enhanced mode was ALWAYS impossible. :angry:

I started booting from different USB flash drives, "set" to USB-FDD (FAT12, FAT16 and FAT32). Always with same results: impossible to start in Enhanced mode from an USB-HDD as C-drive. It was possible to install Windows 3.1 on my FAT16 USB-FDD (the FAT12 one was to small). While Windows 3.1 in standard mode was happily starting from an A-drive, in Enhanced mode it was not. FAT32 USB-FDD: same story.

I somehow found out that disabling the temporary swapfile was here the "solution" (set Paging=0 in SYSTEM.INI [386Enh] and comment out PagingFile and MaxPagingFileSize). After that modification, starting Enhanced mode from the FAT16 USB-FDD was no problem anymore, the FAT32 USB-FDD gave same results. With Windows installed on an USB-HDD while booting from FAT12, FAT16 or FAT32 USB-FDD's and even from a floppy disk: Windows 3.1 started in Enhanced mode without any problem. With no swapfile, starting in Enhanced mode while booting my USB-HDD's with Partition ID 0E (FAT16X) or 0C (FAT32X): worked. In fact: anything goes! :D

@MERCURY127. With MS-DOS 6.22 NOT the same story. Booting from a 2GB FAT16 USB-HDD and starting in Enhanced mode from the same drive was only possible for me with AND the Partition ID set to 06 AND without swapfile. With a temporary swapfile even the command prompt didn't return (in ALL my earlier tests at least the command prompt returned). With Partition ID 0E (FAT16X) MS-DOS didn't boot from an USB-HDD after the "Starting MS-DOS" message. Booting MS-DOS 6.22 from a 1.44MB (FAT12?) USB-FDD or from a regular floppy disk and starting Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode from an USB-HDD gave same results in case of Partition ID 06. If the USB-HDD had the  Partition ID 0E (FAT16X), this (primary) drive wasn't even visible from the MS-DOS 6.22 A-drive! Booting and starting in Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode from a 120MB FAT16 USB-FDD A-drive: only possible without swapfile. :unsure:

BTW Trying to make a Temporary Swapfile on another drive with Windows 3.1 Control Panel gave a warning in case of MS-DOS 7.1: to protect Long File Names computer was halted, with a reference to the LOCK command needed for direct disk access. But using this command in a configuration that didn't start earlier before starting in Enhanced mode WITH temporary swapfile, made NO difference.

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Posted (edited)

i always disable paging on all systems, if have enough memory. so our problem me dont touch, when i run 3x on my newest machines. :)

last time, when i run 3x with swap - is 99-01 years - my first comp was 386 with 8 mb, i student and write my study tasks in word 6. there paging was needed, and also it was first and last my comp, where 3x can ues 32bda and swaping. on next machine, pentium 233 32 mb, 32bda already not work, and 3x can work perfectly w/o any swaping... but then me using win98, where swaping was need again.

=====

boot and work from USB storage always req good legacy support from BIOS. but not always BIOS does his work as need.

Edited by MERCURY127

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Posted (edited)

To be clear: I am not advocating to disable Paging us such. I only want to report my experimental findings regarding Windows 3.1 running from an USB Flash drive.

In fact I think a FAT32 USB-HDD (Partition ID 0B) is the best choice using MS-DOS 7.1! In that case (and in case of FAT16 with Partition ID 06 of cause) Paging is at least possible if desired, or needed.

I possess only two motherboards to run tests with USB-HDD/USB-FDD. My older boards are compatible to very small USB-FDD's only. It would be nice if a more experienced Windows 3.1/USB user reported DIFFERENT findings, testing with another Motherboard/Legacy Bios.


 

Edited by deomsh
Posting with Opera 12.02 in User Mode went wrong

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Posted (edited)

15654785+63=15654848

974*255*63=15647310

You need to change the CHS addresses to 0/1/1 974/119/41 (which is anyway "conflicting" with the "whole head rule") or change the CHS to 0/1/1 973/254/63, change the LBA to 63/15647247 and re-format the volume.

Once the CHS and LBA will be balanced (with any of the two methods above) it should boot and work BOTH as 0B and 0C.

Most probably *something* in the Windows 3.1 Enhanced mode checks that the volume is same size as the CHS partition (or maybe it simply check the availability of the last CHS sectors).

jaclaz 

P.S.: RE: Older motherboards, you may want to try (whether it will work or not is to be seen) a latish version of grub4dos, since a couple of years the 0.4.6a versions sports an internal USB 2.0 stack that may be useful.

Edited by jaclaz

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Thanks a lot! I will explore grub4dos later.

I tried both your CHS/LBA settings, including re-format, but made no difference. Windows won't start in Enhanced mode with Partition Type 0C (FAT32X) AND Paging enabled.

When I disabled the temporary swapfile directly after I was back at the dos-prompt, no problems with this Partition Type.

I also let Windows set the temporary swapfile to my regular FAT32 harddrive, made no difference.

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So the connection/conflict is with the Swap file?

It is very possible that *somehow* it is the DOS 7.1 combined with Windows 3.1 that *wants* a type 0B for the swap file, and since - more or less - very few people ran the combination DOS 7.1+Win 3.1 or ran it anyway on FAT16 volumes (or, even if on FAT32 on 0B types only) this glitch didn't come out as evident before.

It remains "strange" since DOS 7.1 should have no issues with both 0B and 0C, and Windows 3.1 should know nothing about BOTH 0B and 0C (and thus treat - or fail to treat - both exactly in the same way). :unsure:

Another possibility (remote, but with some BIOSes you never know) could be some mishandling of the device geometry at BIOS level. :dubbio:

Definitely these tests need to be replicated on other motherboards/devices, it is even possible that something similar to the issues you have on the other motherboards (impossibility to use a USB device greater than X) happens on this one (but "covertly").

I thought that the issue could be connected (though at a later stage than usual) with the use of Function 02h of Interrupt 13h vs. Function 42h of (extended) Interrupt 13h, see this for context:

http://reboot.pro/topic/12436-usbzipls120-booting-with-minimalist-mbr-code-and-grldr/

but if the behaviour is the same even when both CHS and LBA access provide exactly the same results, then *something else* is involved.

jaclaz

 

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Posted (edited)

I have red the link you mentioned. Although I do not really understand those BIOS-interrupts, I also red the advise that FAT32 / Partition ID 0B has "best compatibility".

I am not sure its directly related tot the swapfile, but CHS/LBA unbalancing seems unlikely - as far as something can be said from experimental testing. On the P5 motherboard I have (some) access to, Partition Type OC with Paging disabled gave NO access to Windows 3.1 in Enhanced mode, the system rebooted directly! But on that board I cannot unplug the Windows 8.1 HDD's to see if that matters. :(

I did three "experimentum crucis" with (maximum?) unbalanced partition table, with both Partition ID's 0C and 0B. Every test with re-format (FORMAT c: /Q /S) and a fresh Windows 3.1 (Express install). All six tests on the same 8GB Kingston Datatraveler flash drive. Motherboard Asrock 960GM-GS3 with AMI BIOS.

  1. CHS: 0/0/1&0/1/1; LBA 63/15647247. BIOS Legacy USB support ran fine, FORMAT and Windows installation too. Paging was only possible with Partition ID 0B. With OC: starting in Enhanced mode as soon Paging was disabled.
  2. CHS: 0/0/1&973/254/63; LBA 63/64. Same results.
  3. CHS: 0/0/1&0/1/1; LBA 63/64. Both Legacy USB support and FORMAT had no problem with this. Further: same results with this *exceptional* partition table. :blink:

Boot Record values where always the same, except for the Serial Number. Sometimes the OEM Name changed after the first reboot. FORMAT wrote always "MSWIN4.1" as OEM Name, I have seen ""1MlerIHC", "1Mr,jlHC" and "1MnXTIHC" (without quotation marks). Rewriting to "MSWIN4.1" made no difference in the results, and was not changed again. Some nice PTEDIT-pictures from the third experiment, just before and just after re-format and after first reboot:

 

 

0B011634.jpg

PBR0B1_1.jpg

PBR0B1_1-after_reboot.jpg

Edited by deomsh
corrections

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