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Windows 8 - Deeper Impressions


JorgeA
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It's such a stunning commentary that I was going to reply simply that my mouth was left open in amazement. However, after checking out Thurrott's page I did manage to find one thing for that open mouth to say. (I hope it doesn't end up actually being a foot going in.) Thurrott writes:
In a perfect world, Windows would meld to the hardware you’re using. On a tablet, things would work as they do now, and on a traditional PC, you’d boot to the desktop and have a Start button.

In the midst of all the Stalinist cr*p written before and after that paragraph (he's a World War II buff), in the middle of it there is this one nugget which contradicts everything else he says -- and which represents the core of what I (we) have been asking for all along.

He says "in a perfect world," but what exactly is so technically difficult to accomplish here? Isn't it the case that, upon installation, Windows can tell (or you can tell Windows) if you're using a laptop vs. a desktop PC? So, what's so hard about being able to tell between a tablet/phone vs. a laptop/desktop, that the idea needs to be relegated to an "in a perfect world" wish list?

What am I missing here?

You're missing nothing, but he's missing his bipolar medication, or it was starting to wear off while he wrote that article. :lol: But he's back on it again for his next entry ...

New Coke? Calling out critics only makes sense when those critics are wrong ( Thurrott 2013-05-12 )

... where he is on the opposite side again, defending two articles he believes are the reason that the Microsoft executive is out disputing the New Coke analogy. He is also defending his so-called criticism of Windows 8 and also Mary Jo Foley. Background articles:

Thing is, we're being played by all of them. I've seen this movie before, it was called Vista. We are right now unwilling participants in another Mojave Experiment, and why not, the last one worked too. The Vista issues exploded when we discovered that Microsoft bent over for Hollywood and facilitated DRM to affect the operating system. Microsoft opened the door to our computers and said to the Hollywood mafia: "Come on in, the water's fine!". Meanwhile they changed the subject to UAC prompts and other things and promised to fix them. Then they feasted on the good will for Windows 7 and managed to rationalize away the lesson they should have learned.

That was over six years ago, and common sense says Microsoft has not gotten better, in fact we have learned from the inside that things are far far worse in Redmond. As the link by ciHnoN shows, itself a followup to the famous Vanity Fair article ( Microsoft’s Lost Decade August 2012 ) and the important Mini-Microsoft blog ( where Softies and ex-Softies go to vent ), the company is FUBAR with respect to morale, direction, and most importantly the will do the right thing for the customers. Yes they are making money hand over fist, but that is from one thing only, converting the corporation into a leeching parasite, that skims money off everything they touch like a parody of the Sopranos.

Now Ed Bott, Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley are right in the middle of this and they don't even realize it. They are the presumably unwitting mouthpieces for Redmond, and are used in targeted propaganda when Microsoft tries to "get out in front of" an issue. Countless words are written and comments fly around and it all serves to distract from whatever the real issue is, like the pea shell game.

As has been detailed in this thread, Microsoft is prone to making huge miscalculations, and they have yet another one on-deck. If they release a Start Button that points back at Metro be prepared for an accompanying wave of political-style propaganda statements declaring "They fixed it!" and many dutiful articles that attempt to tamp down the criticism they are expecting. And it will be well-deserved criticism because I simply cannot dream up a bigger FU to their customers than that.

EDIT: added link

Edited by CharlotteTheHarlot
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Check out the MicroZealots attacking this anonymous source over at the article by SJVN ...

Anonymous MSFT developer admits Linux is faster than Windows ( ZDNet 2013-05-12 )

Linux is far faster than Windows. That's old news. It's why Linux runs 90 percent of the world's top 500 fastest supercomputers, while Windows runs 1 percent of them. What's new "news" is that an alleged Microsoft operating system developer recently admitted that Linux is indeed much faster, and explained why that's the case.

Such blasphemy must not go unpunished!

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In case anyone is wondering, Sinofsky is still around and still posts on his blog called: Learning By Shipping.

Conversation #38– disrupt or die ( Sinofsky 2013-05-08 )

Anyone worth their salt in product development knows that listening to customers through any and all means possible is the means to innovation. Wait a minute, anyone worth their salt in product development knows that listening to customers leads to a faster horse.

It is IMHO a veiled commentary on his destruction of Classic Windows, with piles and piles of marketdroid propaganda and, well, whatever. If he could be bottled up and marketed in drug stores he could replace Sominex, ZzzQuil, and alcohol because he is the perfect cure for insomnia.

When he launched the blog lots of people went over to see what he would say, unfortunately the answer is still - nothing at all. He still won't even use the word "Windows" or "Microsoft" from what I can see. He will mention "Apple" and "Linux" though and other companies as well. Very strange!

The people out here seem to have realized this because that post is dated May 08, nearly one week ago and there are eleven comments! And most of them are taking him to task. This one I thought was funny ...

xtH2suL.jpg

I'm kinda ticked off he got fired though, because I had made a whole bunch of pictures starring him. :lol: Here is one of them ...

llIaLfO.jpg

( feel free to use it at will, maybe someone can get it to him, he needs some hits on his blog! )

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You're missing nothing, but he's missing his bipolar medication, or it was starting to wear off while he wrote that article. :lol: But he's back on it again for his next entry ...

New Coke? Calling out critics only makes sense when those critics are wrong ( Thurrott 2013-05-12 )

... where he is on the opposite side again, defending two articles he believes are the reason that the Microsoft executive is out disputing the New Coke analogy. He is also defending his so-called criticism of Windows 8 and also Mary Jo Foley.

Sheesh, I'm dizzy from all these sudden turns Thurrott takes!

Here's a fantastic observation by "ObjectivityFirst" in the comments section. Highly quotable insights mixed in with some semi-inside knowledge --

The truth is that far more people hate Windows 8 than like it. There are long-term Windows engineers, actively hunting for an alternative platform. I have people who never, ever, talk about computers, calling me (I'm an engineer) angry because they figure, since I am tech nut, I had something to do with Windows 8. It IS serious. Ballmer said so himself: He bet the farm.

People might bash Vista, but with the exception of annoyances like UAC, Vista was simply a bit buggy. But Windows 8 is an entirely different monster. There are no bugs. It IS the bug. Furthermore, non-naive people are aware that the reason that Microsoft persists in pushing Metro is flip the industry toward Metro so that they can collect their 20-30% app store fee.

So in summary, there is real, vehement hate like Vista never experienced. I talk to people every day about Windows. This time is different.

[emphasis added]

Thing is, we're being played by all of them. I've seen this movie before, it was called Vista. We are right now unwilling participants in another Mojave Experiment, and why not, the last one worked too. The Vista issues exploded when we discovered that Microsoft bent over for Hollywood and facilitated DRM to affect the operating system. Microsoft opened the door to our computers and said to the Hollywood mafia: "Come on in, the water's fine!". Meanwhile they changed the subject to UAC prompts and other things and promised to fix them. Then they feasted on the good will for Windows 7 and managed to rationalize away the lesson they should have learned.

That was over six years ago, and common sense says Microsoft has not gotten better, in fact we have learned from the inside that things are far far worse in Redmond. As the link by ciHnoN shows, itself a followup to the famous Vanity Fair article ( Microsofts Lost Decade August 2012 ) and the important Mini-Microsoft blog ( where Softies and ex-Softies go to vent ), the company is FUBAR with respect to morale, direction, and most importantly the will do the right thing for the customers. Yes they are making money hand over fist, but that is from one thing only, converting the corporation into a leeching parasite, that skims money off everything they touch like a parody of the Sopranos.

We keep forgetting about that DRM thing, don't we?

As has been detailed in this thread, Microsoft is prone to making huge miscalculations, and they have yet another one on-deck. If they release a Start Button that points back at Metro be prepared for an accompanying wave of political-style propaganda statements declaring "They fixed it!" and many dutiful articles that attempt to tamp down the criticism they are expecting. And it will be well-deserved criticism because I simply cannot dream up a bigger FU to their customers than that.

Once Blue is official, I'm picturing widespread cheering and sighs of relief at the initial news put out by the compliant (lazy) media, followed by a building backlash as people discover we were given only half the baby and realize that MSFT wasn't serious about listening to us.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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In case anyone is wondering, Sinofsky is still around and still posts on his blog called: Learning By Shipping.

Conversation #38– disrupt or die ( Sinofsky 2013-05-08 )

Anyone worth their salt in product development knows that listening to customers through any and all means possible is the means to innovation. Wait a minute, anyone worth their salt in product development knows that listening to customers leads to a faster horse.

Too bad he didn't practice what he preaches...

When he launched the blog lots of people went over to see what he would say, unfortunately the answer is still - nothing at all. He still won't even use the word "Windows" or "Microsoft" from what I can see. He will mention "Apple" and "Linux" though and other companies as well. Very strange!

I'll bet he has some kind of nondisclosure clause in his severance package that stops him from talking about Windows or Microsoft for a specified period of time.

Fabulous poster you put together, BTW. Reminds me of the diner scene in one of the "Naked Gun" movies (was it the first one) where the owner has a wall of framed pictures of disasters (the Titanic, Hindenburg, and so on). A very funny visual joke.

--JorgeA

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Download Porteus 2.0, burn it to a CD and give it a try. It's as good an itroduction to slackware as you'll ever get, in a ready-to-run form.

Now, having read the links you gave, I feel I must point out that the astonishing graphs you like are related to KDE 4 (the K desktop environment), not the underlying distribution. That is a difficult concept to grasp, since there's no such dichotomy under Windows (NT-Family, of course), for which the windowing system is an inseparable part of the OS. I'd say setting up Gentoo on a computer is somewhat like building your own car, and having to lathe some of the connecting pieces from bare steel in the mean-time, on top of it. :) Slackware is gentler than that. But boots to the console if plain-vanilla, until you give it a desktop environment, which may be KDE, Gnome, LXDE, Xfce, Trinity, CDE or any of many others I'm not familiar with. Linux, after all, is about choice! :yes:

I looked at the screenshots for Porteus and I have to say that it looks very attractive. Even the LXDE that they show sports a convex taskbar, which is one of my favorite Vista features.

Will give this a whirl off a Live CD. I notice that they say that if you want to install the OS on a hard drive, they recommend installing full-blown Slackware instead. But like you said, this should be good enough to get a feel for the OS.

BTW, thanks for the explanation about the sharp graphics being due to KDE. Mystery solved!

I'd say setting up Gentoo on a computer is somewhat like building your own car, and having to lathe some of the connecting pieces from bare steel in the mean-time, on top of it. :)

Whoa! :o

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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... That is a difficult concept to grasp, since there's no such dichotomy under Windows (NT-Family, of course), for which the windowing system is an inseparable part of the OS.

....

But boots to the console if plain-vanilla, until you give it a desktop environment, which may be KDE, Gnome, LXDE, Xfce, Trinity, CDE or any of many others I'm not familiar with. Linux, after all, is about choice! :yes:

Well, with all due respect :rolleyes: , alternate shells have existed in the windows world since WIndows 3.1, so not really a "brand new concept", though they are not necessarily a "completely different Windowing system", still they manage to convey the same idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternative_shells_for_Windows

and - not so casually - a KDE for Windows is also available:

http://windows.kde.org/

Of course the fact that on a site dedicated to a graphical environment there is not even a single screenshot of the actual graphical environment :w00t: only means that the good guys behind the scene have no idea (or no actual intention) to promote their (IMHO nice) software. :ph34r:

More "mature" shells like bblean/bb4win (which I personally like for it's minimalism - Free/Freeware) or Aston Shell (Commercial):

http://www.astonshell.com/

may give a "better taste" of what is achievable.

jaclaz

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... That is a difficult concept to grasp, since there's no such dichotomy under Windows (NT-Family, of course), for which the windowing system is an inseparable part of the OS.

....

But boots to the console if plain-vanilla, until you give it a desktop environment, which may be KDE, Gnome, LXDE, Xfce, Trinity, CDE or any of many others I'm not familiar with. Linux, after all, is about choice! :yes:

Well, with all due respect :rolleyes: , alternate shells have existed in the windows world since WIndows 3.1, so not really a "brand new concept", though they are not necessarily a "completely different Windowing system", still they manage to convey the same idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternative_shells_for_Windows

and - not so casually - a KDE for Windows is also available:

http://windows.kde.org/

I'm pretty sure that, there, dencorso was responding to what I'd said in one of my previous posts that I linked to:

Thanks for the article link, it provided good historical background, although I admit that despite looking into the matter I remain mystified by the conceptual differences (if any?) between a "UI," a "DE," and a "shell."

If I have it right, dencorso was acknowledging the difficulty understanding the differences between these for somebody who isn't familiar with Linux. I'm still mystified.

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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If I have it right, dencorso was acknowledging the difficulty understanding the differences between these for somebody who isn't familiar with Linux. I'm still mystified.

Well, yes and no.

Up to windows 9x/Me the "core" was (like Linux) command line (the DOS) and a (default) "shell" (and/or "windowing system") was completely separated (to be accurate Me "integrated" it), for the "final" user (though the differences between Linux and DOS based windows are deeper than this).

The "NT family" has been (somewhat "falsely", see below) traditionally represented as being "an integrated with GUI OS" and the "windowing system" consequently "liberally confused" with the default shell (which is Explorer.exe).

There are alternatives to explorer.exe (as seen before) and after all the MS' own PE's have traditionally been "command line only" (and - as a further example - Server core has command line interface only).

Again there are several differences between Linux and any NT based system, but to the "final" user there isn't that much difference between a "shell" and a "windowing system", as a matter of fact the "windowing system" is integrated in Windows NT :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windowing_system

but to the "common user" this is not so evident.

Anyone that ever used good ol' DOS and Windows 3.1 or 3.11 can think, for all practical purposes, that startX in Linux is correspondent to running win.com.

I hope to have contributed to clear the matter.

jaclaz

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Some interesting reactions to Frank Shaws post

"They're on the defensive here," said Moorhead. "I don't think there is anyone who read that memo that thought any differently. You only write a response like this when your back is against the wall to a certain extent.

"I don't think this had to be written," Moorhead said.

Microsoft's counter-attack against Windows 8 coverage makes it 'look weak'

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Some interesting reactions to Frank Shaws post

"They're on the defensive here," said Moorhead. "I don't think there is anyone who read that memo that thought any differently. You only write a response like this when your back is against the wall to a certain extent.

"I don't think this had to be written," Moorhead said.

Microsoft's counter-attack against Windows 8 coverage makes it 'look weak'

Good article. Among other things, it shows yet another way in which Microsoft is imitating Apple:

But Moorhead also saw Microsoft's predicament as largely self-inflicted, the result of its communications choices coming home to roost.

"This is the result of a sub-optimal communications strategy that goes all the way back to Windows 7," Moorhead said. "Prior to Windows 7, Microsoft had a much more collaborative communication strategy with the press and analysts. But they saw Apple get traction with a much more closed approach, and opted for Apple's strategy. They started to create a more challenging relationship with analysts and the press."

But Microsoft, Moorhead said, is no Apple. "Microsoft doesn't make a good Apple," he said, repeating an argument he used last week, when he pointed out that Microsoft has a much larger ecosystem than Apple, with thousands of hardware partners, herds of resellers, a bigger pool of developers and both enterprise and consumer customers to keep in the loop.

What works for Apple, in other words, is not necessarily what works for Microsoft.

"Microsoft needs to return to their earlier Windows communications strategy," said Moorhead. "They were one of the biggest technology companies that pioneered social media, they were once very collaborative with the press."

But the world's changed since Windows 7, when Stephen Sinofsky took over as head of Windows development and brought the more secretive, closed communications approach he'd used when he ran Office development, to the OS group.

--JorgeA

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Channel9 has new motto:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse

This actually is a place for you to talk. But read the fine print, we are watching you.

Cutie! I think my "hate posts" may have something to do with this.

Nice. Reminds me a little of Mao's "let a hundred flowers bloom" campaign, where he encouraged people to speak up so that he could find out who was a "deviationist."

--JorgeA

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A user's perpective on Windows 8 from another forum:

I bought a copy of Windows 8 the day it was released. I've got it installed on a 2nd PC that I use for miscellaneous tasks in addition to my primary PC. I find that I use it even less now that it has Windows 8. The UI is completely non-intuitive and a total PITA to navigate if you aren't familiar with it. Microsoft screwed the pooch by creating a UI that was foreign to most Windows users. There have always been new features that the user has had to get accustomed to with each new release of Windows, but nothing as radically different as Win 8. Metro may have seemed like a good idea for tablets and other touch screen devices, but it has no business on a desktop PC.

The Charm Bar is a joke and needs to be eliminated completely. Give me an icon or a Start button so I can access these items directly instead of waving my cursor at the corner and hoping I can make it appear. I don't understand why they can't just stick a Power button in the system tray or the bottom of the screen instead of making me jump through hoops to reboot or shut down the PC.

IMHO the Charms bar on a desktop PC is little more than a gimmick, something they tacked on just to show that it could be done. But "cool" and "new" are not good justifications to foist it on everyone. It serves no useful new function and IMX simply gets in the way repeatedly when you're trying to do something else. Leave it in place for tablets and stop annoying the rest of your users!

--JorgeA

Edited by JorgeA
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