My ideas about operating systems...

[PC_LOAD_LETTER]

Auto makers for instance tempt people to buy new models with new styles, new features, accessories, etc. They don't try to disable the older models or prevent parts from being available for them in order to force people to buy a new one.

I can tell you've never done any major work on a GM vehicle thats older than 5 years

It's pretty sad when links to legitimate security a know nothing hack site are removed just because they contain links to a nother site that has links something that M$ doesn't like encourages piracy, like the remover for M$ spyware software i dont like.

there I fixed that for you. any further debates about things I choose to moderate WILL be addressed via PM. I am just enforcing the rules and will not be 'called out' every time I do.

[CoffeeFiend]

Your examples are flawed for obvious reasons.

Auto makers for instance tempt people to buy new models with new styles, new features, accessories, etc.

MS for instance tempts people to buy new windows version with new styles, new features, accessories, etc. Just the same.

They don't try to disable the older models or prevent parts from being available for them in order to force people to buy a new one.

So you're saying that MS is disabling older versions of windows? Or prevent you from reinstalling? And that is what's forcing you to buy Vista? That's not even making sense.

Each year, when the new model of a car comes out, they stop selling the older one. Same story for Windows. When 95 came out, they stopped selling 3.11. When 98 came out, they stopped selling 95, etc.

As for updates, they already give 10 years of FREE patches/support for Windows. Are you expecting eternal updates for free? And backporting every new feature to ensure they don't sell any copies of their newer OS'es? (great business model there, I'm sure the shareholders would approve!)

Because that's like expecting the dealership to fix your car for free forever, and installing all the features of the new model in your old car for free too.

geek was on the money.

[BenoitRen]

New cars, new movies and all that are entirely new products that stand on their own. We buy cars; we don't buy engines.

To elaborate on herbalist's example, they don't make us 'upgrade' our roads every 3 to 5 years that can only have the newest cars riding on it.

[CoffeeFiend]

New cars, new movies and all that are entirely new products that stand on their own. We buy cars; we don't buy engines.

To elaborate on herbalist's example, they don't make us 'upgrade' our roads every 3 to 5 years that can only have the newest cars riding on it.

No one's forcing you to upgrade at all, by any means. You can throw that old copy of MS DOS 3.3 on your new rig if you want... Or keep using that 386SX 20 until year 2150.

And car analogies are flawed in many ways. Cars and roads are both hardware, and very unlike software in their nature (which needs hardware to run onto).

New versions of windows are a new product too. Yes, they need hardware to run onto, but so is life.

Same for movies. If the new movie comes on a DVD, it won't play in your old VHS player, you'll need to get a DVD player, same story with Blu-Ray discs (except you'll also need to upgrade your TV too).

We buy cars; we don't buy engines.

The vast majority of people buy a computer with windows preinstalled just the same. Buying windows to most of them is like buying just an engine.

I'm not really sure what your point was.

Edited June 14, 2008 by crahak

[PC_LOAD_LETTER]

sorry im still not seeing it. unless a MS employee came into your house and ripped the ethernet cable out of the back of your 98 machine, that road upgrade analogy isnt working form me.

My apologies to the OP. You started this thread to talk about 98 but the conversation just refuses to go in that direction.

[Ponch]

My apologies to the OP. You started this thread to talk about 98 but the conversation just refuses to go in that direction.

Why ?

The OP started a sort of philosophical cliché thread about "Micro$haft", and he is "looking forward to questions, comments & hate mail".

I think he can be pleased with 3 pages (of ...), as this is turning to the "I love Win9x but I hate M$" subforum. OMG, I can't believe I replied to this thread.

[SlugFiller]

Individuals will remain individuals--and the lemmings will remain lemmings! Thank goodness there are people here who refuse to follow the herd over the cliff!

And lemmings will continue to out-breed individuals a billion to one. The ant system just works. Earth is the proof. It's sad, but that's just the way our universe is designed.

Are you gonna get mad when the theaters stop showing the movies youve seen and start playing another movie that youll have to pay to see?

Actually, I have and do, but mostly because I haven't had the chance to watch it. They really drop these suckers fast.

That being said, movies have content, OSs do not. You might as well compare an OS to a computer game. Or a book.

Are you going to go protest GM/Ford/Chrysler when the 2009 year model comes out when the 2008s have only been out for a year?

Intriguingly (Thank sweetness SeaMonkey has a spell-checker by default), the vintage automobile scene is a very flourishing one.

Are you going to whine that the NFL/NBA/NHL etc because they are playing the same game theyve played for the last 30+ years?

One of the main reasons I don't watch sports...

sorry im still not seeing it. unless a MS employee came into your house and ripped the ethernet cable out of the back of your 98 machine, that road upgrade analogy isnt working form me.

The problem is, alot of recent software just tests the OS version and refuses to run if the version isn't what they expect, even if they don't actually need any of the added APIs.

If this was just applications, then it wouldn't matter. You could always opt for older, or alternative, or even open-source.

But games and hardware drivers also apply, and those are not so readily replaceable. While this is not directly attributable to MS, it's not as though they had no influence on the matter.

In the case of hardware drivers, you could note that it does require extra work to have one for each "version" of Windows, but then again, up until a couple of years ago that was expected, not to mention drivers are also released for non-Windows OSs. That a specific version is forsaken can only be attributed to MS officially obsoleting it. If they had simply stopped releasing updates, but didn't announce it, that may have never happened.

In the case of games, though, that a game, dependent only on the cross-platform DX or GL API, with no actual GUI controls, text manipulation, or cross-process communication, even checks the current OS version is deplorable. I would equally expect a command-line md5 calculator to do the same. You don't get that sort of thing with different linux versions, where a full kernel update is both free, fast, and invisible to the actual usage. This can only be attributed to MS's "end-of-support" declaration. Of course, it's not as if it is just an accidental by-product, that Halo came out as NT-only is definitely MS's direct fault, and really was the pace-maker for all those that followed.

"I love Win9x but I hate M$"

If you'll note, I haven't actually said I love 9x, just that I hate it less than all the others. I think the OP said similar things, though I may be interpreting his/her words wrong.

[herbalist]

SlugFiller, you said exactly what I meant. M$ deliberately coerces vendors and those who supply hardware to get them to kill older systems. That type of market manipulation and coercement of companies they don't own should be criminal. Unfortunately, big money buys regulations, laws, and other puppets to do their bidding and lets them legally rob users.

I can tell you've never done any major work on a GM vehicle thats older than 5 years

As a matter of fact, I worked on a slightly older Pontiac last week. All the parts and service info was readily available. As for the rest, there's no need for a PM as it's not worth responding to. It's all far too clear.

Edited June 15, 2008 by herbalist

[cyberformer]

I do not think it's like most here really-really-hates the big M! It's more like a "Love/Hate" relationship sort of thing.

It's like going to your favorite eating spot that offers really great dishes, and once you are thoroughly sold on the unique way that a particular dish is served and prepared--they tell you one day "sorry, we no longer offer that on our menu"--- and still having the same waiters and the same Chef since day one, --smiling at you from the door leading to the kitchen---saying "You're going to love the next one"--when you had finally been satisfied with something you truly liked:-- and they still did that to you over and over--and you let them--because they really came up with an almost perfect dish that beat the competition in more ways than a few.

I think most of us have to admit that we like the basic premise or concept of "The Windows OS"--with all its merits and faults-problems, quirks--and idiosyncrasies! And I do mean--Microsoft Windows!

And most of us have a unique vision of what we think would be the definitive and best Windows--For me it would be Windows 98se transformed into Windows -98TE--meaning the third and perfected and final edition! but never loosing sight of it's 9x-ness--or it's perfect relationship to Dos.

But even if that could never be--I still love 98se more than the others.

For someone else--it might be XP---or even .....Windows Me!!!!!

For others, no thing more than a version --always improved--and supported!

As far as analogies go--or giving a metaphorical human face to things from a Windows user's perspective:

It's as though we are always having the carpet pulled out from under our feet---or a feeling of being betrayed in some way--once we have finally made the big commitment! --Yet we never give up.

Someone has to care for The Big M's abandoned children though,

---problem children that they are---but some of us still love them--enough not to quit them, or see them forgotten.

We all know where we stand: Most of us could hang it up and go Linux or Mac-- but when push comes to shove,

The "Windows thing" is an outstanding OS experience--one way or the other---in spite of Microsoft's failings.

[Fredledingue]

I agree. It's more disapointement with Vista than hate.

Sure M$ has a questionable policy for imposing its new products, but that's questionable only to the extent that these new products are not better than the previous ones.

XP had advantages over w98 (compelling for some, unsignificant for others) but was much less secure, more complex and slower. Disadvantages ofset advantages but all in all, it was still possible to understand those who said XP was better than w98, from personal point of view.

With Vista we were all at odds finding a single improvement from XP that was significant and which could turn the balance if its favor.

Hence the discontent when M$ annonced that XP would be not for sale anymore sort of forcing new buyers to buy Vista.

But nobody is forcing XP or w9x users to upgrade.

Vista cannot be or is not recommanded to be installed on non-new computers. As a matter of fact, M$ deliberately or not, ignored the huge market of existing platform upgrade and focused on new hardwares, more specificaly EOM distribution. (who today buys a PC and Windows Vista separeately?)

There is an agreement between manufacturers and M$: The first will sell Vista pre-installed, the second, in return, will rise windows minimal requirements to push poeple to buy new hardware.

That would be working if the new hardware/software combo would offer a major plus for the client.

But it doesn't and the model doesn't work anymore.

New hardware may still have something more than, say, from 2 years ago, but nothing terrific.

And as Windows Vista is concerned, there is realy nothing better: It's rather a decline. No one would buy a new computer to run Vista and few would buy Vsta to run a new computer.

Only those without comparison spot would be satsfied with a Vista computer: Eiter because their last one was very old or because it's their first one ever.

Conclusion, if M$ (and also other software companies and hardware makers) don't offer better products this "forced upgrade" policy will backlash and hurt their sales and reputation.

Otherwise, poeple can live happy under the tyrany if it's a good one.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Fredledingue

[SlugFiller]

We all know where we stand: Most of us could hang it up and go Linux or Mac-- but when push comes to shove,

The "Windows thing" is an outstanding OS experience--one way or the other---in spite of Microsoft's failings.

Haven't tried Mac to date.

Did go for Linux, and it does have many advantages over Windows. It's not a "most of us could" sort of system, though, WSOD is distinctively non-trivial to correct. There are also a couple of things I don't like about it that it pretty much shares with XP, and a few unique things average Joe wouldn't care about.

The main deal-breaker, though, has to be the fact that it can't even run Quake 1 through 3 on a DX10-capable video card. Maybe if and when Wine matures, someday.

The fact is, that so long as Windows remains the main platform for most new software, people are forced to use it. There is no viable alternative: The Win32API is not a public standard, even though most developers treat it like it is.

But nobody is forcing XP or w9x users to upgrade.

Actually, if it wasn't for KEx, w9x users would have to upgrade if they want to continue using newer software. Variety of software is what makes a PC into a PC, as opposed to consoles or dedicated devices (TV, calculator, electronic dictionary, etc). But with Windows being the #1 most common platform out there, the best software turns out to be Windows-only, and usually forces the same upgrade regime as Microsoft desires.

Microsoft managed, through luck or business talent (read: clever deceit and manipulation), to corner the market early on in its forming stages. They "monopolized away" most competition, and turned themselves into the industry standard. The rest of us are pretty much forced to follow suit.

Changing the standard now just wouldn't work, and supporting the current odd standard appears to be too much for any current competitor to achieve. The end-user remains choiceless.

[BenoitRen]

And car analogies are flawed in many ways. Cars and roads are both hardware, and very unlike software in their nature (which needs hardware to run onto).

You're only taking my analogy at face value. My analogy works in that software needs hardware to work, like cars need roads to ride on.

New versions of windows are a new product too.

Not really. Win95 to Win98 is more of an update than a new product, for example.

[georg]

Quote: (herbalist, yesterday) "IMO, Vista and XP aren't worth using, let alone pirating."

Microsoft is a marketing company, and they dominate because they understand the market. There are tens of millions of people who use XP and Vista. All the XP fanboys that come over here to post are testimony that people don't just use XP, they love it. In deciding what to do, I looked carefully at Vista. The word from those whose technical ability I respect, who are actually using it, is good, especially for those using Verizon FIOS and Vista Ultimate as an upgraded media center edition. I just can't afford the computer to run it, or the new media devices it excels in managing. Win9x operating systems have been my choice because I'm retired on a fixed income. One step behind the cutting edge has gotten me good value for money.

Here's a quote from the Vista Annoyances forum today, posted by Charlie Hadden (487 messages posted)

"Many of my friends have Macs with Vista as their OS of choice. Now that Macs are just another brand of PC there is little reason not to, If you don't mind the price...Bill G. was the smartest when he bailed Applesauce out of bankruptcy. I mean controlling your competition! WOW"

Microsoft is a hard driving organization with excellent people and it has made a hell of a lot of people besides Bill Gates very very wealthy. You are fooling yourself if you think their success is all due to "market manipulation and coercement".

One marketing organization offered this analysis: "Organization may be the most important key to Microsoft's success. Microsoft designs its teams to be overworked. Project managers calculate the number of staff members needed to accomplish a task, then reduce it. This results in a team that has to scramble immediately or be overwhelmed. Microsoft also takes great care to choose the "right" people. A company built on dominating via improvisation and high-energy needs high-energy problem solvers who don't mind working 72 hours straight. Although this type of employee seems difficult to find, somehow Microsoft keeps finding them."

I go back a long way, to the IBM 1401 and wiring boards for card interpreters. I still have two Osbornes. I liked PICK. Years of my life were spent coaxing a peer to peer network of WFW3.11 and Win95 machines. Crahak wrote: "No one's forcing you to upgrade at all ...keep using that 386SX 20". My 386SX20 was bought off the sidewalk for $50 and only the death of the clock module ended its usefullness. It brought me live pictures of the first Mars lander.

[Fredledingue]

SlugFiller

M$ doesn't force anyone to upgrade (if yes we wouldn't sit in front of our w98 machine, sorry Ben, I mean w9x)

It's the software developers who force us to because it's easier to manage one version than two or three. And they do that when they forbid the installation on w9x eventhought you have all the updates and KegeX installed.

Sorry but I can't blame M$ for comapny xyz to add a w9x blocker on their installer just because they introduced a few XP-only API calls (most of them useless - see VirtualDub support for w98 thread).

But I do blame M$ for not releasing decent OSes, up to our expectation given that they are the biggest and whealthiest software comapny.

I also blame them for not choosing simplier solutions for home users etc.

I don't blame them for having 90% of market shares. That's the goal of any business.

But I do blame for they decadence. Balmer and Billius Gateus Ceasar are like old roman emperors laying on a sofa and not seeing what their legions of developers are doing.

But there is one glitter of hope: Modular Windows.

Not for tomorrow but if that become reality we could all be saved and spared the bloat.

[BenoitRen]

You are fooling yourself if you think their success is all due to "market manipulation and coercement".

Oh, please. A large part of its success is because of it. Granted, they have good marketing, but don't fool yourself into thinking that's why they're on top. It has been documented.

Edited June 15, 2008 by BenoitRen